So it's my pleasure to introduce Jason Langsdorf from Copter Labs. 0:00 Here we have Lisa Larson Kelly from Learn from Lisa. 0:04 Alex Saxon from Stripe and John Reszic from Kahn Academy. 0:07 We'll be talking about tools and whether there's such thing as too many or 0:11 too few and from that I'm gonna let Jason take it away. 0:17 This is gonna be an interactive discussion which means that we expect you to 0:21 participate if you want. 0:24 So I'll be roaming around with the microphone. 0:25 So, please just raise your hand proud and high if you wanna talk. 0:28 Thanks. 0:31 >> Okay, so I wanted, the point of this panel is to kind of discuss where we 0:33 are going in web development and 0:37 the steps we are taking to make sure that we are still able to bring new people, 0:39 novice web developers, up to speed with the growing number of tools. 0:44 The reason that I was thinking about this as a topic is that when, you know, 0:49 when I first started in web development. 0:52 I had to know two things, I needed to know HTML and 0:54 CSS, and technically I didn't even need to know CSS. 0:57 So as the toolset grew, you know, you get into JavaScript and 1:00 you start working in the backend and, and there's just more and 1:04 more layers of complexity that built over time. 1:06 But now we're starting to roll out things, 1:09 especially with the advent of Node where there are dozens and 1:10 dozens of tools that make our jobs easier and more efficient, things like Grunt. 1:14 Templating lan, languages like Jade, EJS, Mustache and Handlebars. 1:19 There are you know, a bunch of different things that 1:24 allow us to very quickly build out different things. 1:27 But the comple, the complexity that comes from that is that 1:31 when you wanna bring somebody new onto a project, they don't just, 1:34 they can't just come knowing HTML and CSS and JavaScript. 1:38 Now, they have to be able to function in an environment that's built with 1:41 Grunt using SAS and a bunch of SAS mix-ins with a Jade template and, 1:45 you know, all the different things that you've put in place. 1:51 So we've raised the level of complexity of our projects pretty significantly. 1:53 And this is an ongoing project but I have noticed that it does seem to be 1:57 even more rapid than it, than it was now that Coden made it so easy to do. 2:02 So what I wanted to talk to these lovely folks over here about is 2:08 just kind of coming from a place of both Alice and 2:13 John have a lot to do with jQuery and still have a lot to do with. 2:16 [LAUGH] With, John you wrote JQuery in its original form. 2:19 And so I wanted to talk to them about what is arguably the, 2:24 probably the easiest framework to learn. 2:28 JQuery has a wonderful documentation, it's, 2:30 it's part of the reason why it kinda swept the, the development world. 2:32 And then Lisa, who is doing education for 2:36 people who are getting into web development. 2:39 About how she's approaching these new tools. 2:40 So, to start I guess, John. 2:42 When, when you were first doing jQuery did you come at it from 2:45 the standpoint of like, we're going to build this from documentation up and, 2:50 and make it something that everybody can learn? 2:53 Or was it a tool for you that, that you then retrofitted the docs to? 2:56 >> I guess it was a combination of both. 3:01 I definitely. 3:03 I didn't start with docs. 3:05 I did write code. 3:06 I, I, I was, I was definitely writing tools for myself, at least initially. 3:07 But it was very important that before I ever released the code, 3:12 that there was documentation in place for people to use. 3:17 I, when I released the, the library in August, January of 2006. 3:21 With with the initial release with documentation and everything. 3:27 At the time it was the only JavaScript library that had documentation. 3:30 And in, in fact it, it was that case until January, 3:35 2007 when Prototype finally released their documentation for their library. 3:40 So the prototype was undoc, undocumented for two years before [LAUGH] it was, 3:45 [INAUDIBLE] just told people to read the source code, 3:49 the source code was very readable. 3:51 But there was certainly a gap there, and difficult to get started. 3:54 >> I think that actually brings up a really good point. 3:58 Are, are we building these tools, especially some of the more advanced ones. 4:00 Are we building them with the expectation that you, you must be this smart to play. 4:04 where, you know, the expectation is that you will have amassed the level of 4:09 expertise and knowledge about a certain, discipline of web development, that then, 4:13 then you need to know that before you can ever start working with a given tool. 4:20 Like, you know, a [UNKNOWN] runt. 4:23 Alex, do you have any thoughts on that? 4:25 >> Yeah, I'd play some music, I'm a drummer, and, same thing, 4:31 guitars and microphones, things like that. 4:36 You can buy, like a, $3000 guitar, and 4:40 I'd say that like if all guitars are three thousand dollars, no one would play them. 4:42 It would be too hard to get into the business of music. 4:46 But it remains true that when you start out, you buy the hundred 4:50 dollar first act guitar from Wal-mart and you learn from there. 4:55 And then, once you out grow it, you can move to something else. 4:59 And so, I feel like, if Grunt is too hard, 5:01 like it's fine if you wanna write a batch script that cats four files together or 5:04 whatever, or use some automated tooling system that does that stuff for 5:09 you that is even easier than Grunt, and then when you need it 5:14 to be more customized, and you've outgrown that level, you can kinda move on. 5:17 I don't think it would be helpful to the community to 5:22 dumb down all tools or, just assume lowest common denominator. 5:26 I think we can serve people on different levels. 5:32 >> Mm-hm, and so Lisa, when you're teaching these tools have, 5:34 have you run into any walls where you're just not able to get people over them? 5:39 Or like, how are you approaching the idea of, of some of the more complex stuff. 5:42 >> Yeah, I mean, I definitely agree that there are different levels that need to 5:47 be served for you know, Frameworks for example are helping people who 5:51 couldn't possibly do things that frameworks allow them to do, right? 5:56 >> Definitely. >> So it's a double edged sword. 5:59 >> Mm-hm. 6:01 >> But starting out with something that they can grasp, 6:03 something that they can actually understand and work with. 6:04 And they have all the pieces, kind of. 6:09 Or you can help them get the pieces. 6:11 >> Mm-hm. 6:12 >> And then build on it from there. 6:14 It, it is a process. 6:16 So there's, there's this huge gap but it's incremental. 6:17 >> Sure. 6:22 >> Yeah. >> So from a, 6:23 an employer's standpoint well, actually, 6:24 does anybody have any questions right now before I go off on a a diatribe? 6:27 No, okay, I'm gonna go off on a diatribe. 6:31 From a, an employer's standpoint, when you're looking at, 6:33 at building out your development team and, and equipping them with the things that 6:37 they need in order to build projects even on a medium-size team. 6:40 Do these tools that we're building make it harder to hire people or 6:44 does it make it more expensive for the company to to acquire talent that then has 6:49 to learn these extra tools and frameworks that you're using rather than somebody who 6:53 just has a very solid understanding of how, you know, the, the front end works? 6:58 >> I think any competent company wouldn't require certain tools to 7:03 hire a good developer, I mean, it's, I mean, 7:08 in the case of [UNKNOWN] academy we hire we interview and hire a number of people 7:12 and there you know, we don't like our two main programming languages are python and 7:18 JavaScript, and we don't even require that you know, either of them. 7:22 You know, if, if you're a, a good, if you can demonstrate that you're a good 7:25 developer and capable of learning we will, we'll bring you on. 7:28 And some of our best developers who are now writing amazing Python code and 7:31 JavaScript code have, were, just came in and 7:35 they didn't even know those languages when they started. 7:37 So yeah, I don't, I, I don't think that that's a, a prerequisite, that. 7:40 You know, I think it's a little bit silly, 7:45 a little bit nearsighted where if a company says oh, you must have 7:47 two years experience with Grunt and you have like all these sort of things. 7:52 Like, I'm like, yes, you can have those things but 7:55 like, there's really not much point to it. 7:59 I mean, like, that's assuming that. 8:02 You, you've been using this tool for a long time but 8:05 you're also really dumb [LAUGH] and you can't actually learn a new tool, 8:07 I don't know, it's a really weird thing, I don't know. 8:11 >> Alex, I'm actually curious so you so you're at Stripe, 8:14 and obviously if you can't share this, you know, no problem, but. 8:17 Do you guys have a stack that you work on? 8:21 Or like any sets of tools that like somebody who like joins the team needs to 8:22 like, gain mastery over before they are able to work? 8:26 Or like how do you have that set up? 8:29 >> You just wanted to know like social security numbers of like 100 people? 8:32 I can get that for you after [LAUGH]. 8:34 yeah, so strikepire is in a pretty similar conacademy. 8:38 We do a fairly general interview no matter what role you're coming in for. 8:41 If you're coming in for systems you're going to do like OP-C work or 8:46 you're going to do financial things. 8:48 You more or less get the same solved set of problems, not really high CS 8:51 fundamentals either, it's more like can you solve sets of problems, and, and 8:57 actually when we do any sort of screen or interview, it's all tools that you 9:02 are comfortable with on your device on, in your environment. 9:06 So we want to see you, the, in your most comfortable state developing. 9:09 And not in our preferred environment. 9:14 And I think that works really well for, for, if someone is, 9:17 is fumbling around in their editor not remembering like, 9:20 you know, the function keyword or something like that and 9:24 they chose their editor and they chose their language, that's a pretty good tell. 9:27 But if you're forcing people to, to do something they're not comfortable with 9:31 its, you're mixing signals I think, so. 9:33 >> Sure. >> One question I 9:40 guess that I'd like to throw out to the crowd. 9:40 So Stripe and Kahn Academy are obviously some leaders in the field. 9:42 Is there anyone who has encountered either at a current or former job, 9:45 you don't have to tell us, something that was a very bizarre barrier to entry where 9:50 you had some tooling that you absolutely needed to learn or the moment you 9:56 walked in the front door you have to learn this or else you can't work on our stuff. 10:00 >> Outlook. 10:08 Look. 10:10 Lotus notes. 10:11 No one? 10:14 No one has any experience with it? 10:15 >> So here's another question for the crowd. 10:17 Is anybody is anybody using these types of frameworks? 10:19 You know, GRUNT, GULP, you know, JADE, things like that? 10:23 Just by a show of hands, how many different tools and. 10:27 So we're getting a fair number. 10:30 Now, did you have to learn those, did, 10:32 were any of you like forced to learn them as part of your job. 10:33 Or were they things that you brought to your team? 10:36 So if, did you bring them in? 10:38 [BLANK_AUDIO] 10:39 Okay. 10:40 Okay, so it looks like mostly like a, an at will sort of thing. 10:42 [BLANK_AUDIO] 10:44 No, I, I definitely, I wouldn't expect in, 10:49 people coming into the team to have those skills beforehand. 10:52 Like, I, I think that like, they're talking up there, you know, 10:55 Con Academy and, and it's stripe that, the people come to the team and we say, 10:57 okay, go take time and learn about this, like learn how to write Grunt plugins. 11:01 oh, hey, you don't know Angular and our entire app's built on Angular, but 11:05 you're a really smart person. 11:08 We'll bring you in. 11:10 The first two weeks you get to go work on videos and 11:10 learn angular, dig into the apps, and start working on some bugs. 11:13 So, I think that education on the job is extremely important. 11:15 >> Sure. >> And in practice. 11:18 >> Definitely. Now does that make it- 11:20 does that add a level of difficulty for the small business? 11:22 Maybe somebody who doesn't- 11:28 Maybe somebody who doesn't have a, a large budget, you know, 11:31 a small team that then needs to, like, put in time to train people. 11:35 >> First guy in the pool gets the book. 11:40 There you go. 11:42 >> I, I'll bite on the money thing. 11:43 I think. 11:46 That would be true if the libraries and 11:47 frameworks that we're talking about didn't provide more value in, in return. 11:49 So if you're saying hey everyone learn Python. 11:54 Let's go write this rails app. 11:57 But you have to know Python and we're not going to use that. 11:58 >> Sure. 12:01 >> I mean, maybe you'd like [UNKNOWN] it, it. 12:02 >> [LAUGH] >> But. 12:05 I think that if you're using angular or, versus nothing, probably the time 12:08 that it took someone to ramp up on Angular is immediately paid back you know, 12:14 a few weeks later by how quickly they can 12:18 build a rich internet application that works in many browsers. 12:21 So I know my company what, what we run into the most is we have, 12:27 we have our list of tools and requirements for the position, 12:33 and I think it discourages people to apply because they don't know, 12:38 and I think that that is a big problem in itself. 12:45 Because there are so many tools, if people don't know it, 12:49 they don't think they are going to get the job, but they don't know that, 12:52 you know, that training is available. 12:55 >> Mm-hm. 12:57 >> Okay. >> I think it is important to- 12:58 >> Yeah, I mean, one of the big issues here is sort of the. 13:01 It's the cult of the new where like, 13:05 everyone wants to be using the new thing and trying the new thing. 13:07 Cuz new things seem better than old things, even if they aren't necessarily. 13:10 And I mean, it, it's, it's fine. 13:16 I, I, I like I'm fully, I've fully bitten down on 13:19 that like I've used tons of new tools all the time to try and 13:24 at least keep on top of, and I guess this is another issue is that web, 13:27 web development in general moves very fast, technology changes frequently, 13:31 that you feel like you have to keep on top of the new stuff and like, like, 13:35 I've done this, I've, I've made sure that I do side projects where I'm using. 13:39 Relatively new technology, you know, MongoDB, and using WebRTC and 13:45 stuff like that, they may not be crazy awesome things but 13:50 at least I'm like trying to keep on top of it but 13:54 again the issue becomes where I was like I'm spending all these cycles trying to 13:56 keep on top of this thing that's going to be coming down the pipeline. 14:00 And- 14:03 >> Or Not >> Or not, right, right, you know, like, 14:04 i guess, that, [INAUDIBLE] is saying, if I'm working on RTC's stuff and 14:06 I'm like putting all this effort into it, but Apple decides they're 14:09 never going to [INAUDIBLE] RTC, then like, was that like all for not, like, you know, 14:12 like, you know, you know, I don't know, it's. 14:17 I, I, I, I definitely think that there's a large hype factor around, 14:20 around this, around the tools. 14:23 And in it's, it's important for us as developers to 14:25 be good at differentiating between when something is hype and 14:29 when something is legitimately useful to your everyday practice. 14:33 And I think this is probably just something that's probably more something 14:38 that's a skill that you hone over time, that as you get burned by more and 14:42 more tools, [LAUGH] that you eventually are like, okay, I'll wait a little bit and 14:46 I am fully at that, I am like one of the slowest adopters of new tools. 14:52 Because I just, I, I don't want to get burned, I don't want to sink months and 14:56 months into learning something that's not gonna matter. 15:00 >> Have you been burned before? 15:03 Oh, sorry Lisa. 15:04 >> Well, we were talking earlier and 15:05 you had said that that's one way that you kind of vet new people, right? 15:07 Is to see if they can differentiate that, you know, like, have them review, compare. 15:10 [CROSSTALK]. 15:14 >> Yeah, yeah, so, so. 15:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, so like we have a, 15:16 can I be I want a project based interview for new applicants and 15:19 I give them a project that they take home and they, they code on their own terms. 15:24 And one of the things I ask them to do is look at two different tools which do 15:29 essentially the same exact thing. 15:34 It's two JavaScript frameworks. 15:36 And I want them to write up why they picked the framework that they did. 15:38 And so it, it's, it's, it's I feel it's a very basic skill that isn't 15:43 a programming skill per se, but it's a skill that all developers should have. 15:48 Because being able to differentiate between a library that is actively 15:52 developed versus not actively developed is documented versus not documented 15:56 that there are bugs being posted and being fixed. 16:01 Like all these sort of things that like, 16:06 are indicators of a healthy project that will probably continue to exist. 16:08 You know, one to hopefully five years in the future. 16:12 You know, and I think it's something that people need to be more aware of. 16:15 And again if you have these hot new products that are coming out and 16:21 then like, everyone's like aw man have you checked out this new whiz-bang library? 16:24 and then, but then you realize like, and then you look at them like, hey, wait. 16:28 That no one is actually fixing bugs in this, the developer left like 3 months ago 16:31 and like, you know, and like, maybe I shouldn't jump in this right now? 16:35 Maybe I'll just wait a little bit, 16:39 I'll wait 3 more months, and if someone wants to take an older project, great, 16:40 I'll jump in then, but in the meantime, I should wait. 16:43 >> You shouldn't talk about TJ like that. 16:46 I really like John talking about how you have to be able to tell hype from now, 16:48 because some of my favorite. 16:53 If you've ever been to compilating JavaScript the old news group. 16:55 There's some really, really mean people there that, 16:59 that used to really rail on John and jQuery in the very early days. 17:01 And just, they would call him John Ressick, master of hype. 17:05 And like. 17:08 >> [LAUGH] >> He's just a one man marketing machine 17:09 for jQuery and he's trying to push these terrible libraries on us superior DOM. 17:12 developers. 17:19 >> [LAUGH] 17:19 >> So it's good that you've finally learned that skill. 17:20 >> [LAUGH]. 17:22 >> Anybody have any questions for the panel? 17:28 [BLANK_AUDIO] 17:31 >> One of the problems or opportunities we have in our, 17:36 in our small company is we have people who are not developers at all, but 17:38 are actually really interested in starting. 17:42 And a few years ago I, I think I know what I would've said or 17:45 suggested in terms of maybe starting either client side or, or server side, but 17:48 with the success of JavaScript on the server and this sort of rising importance 17:53 of JavaScript well, everywhere I find it difficult or more difficult to suggest. 17:58 Where to begin in what path to, to follow sort of 18:05 like they're these eager padawans and they want to become Jedis. 18:09 But what, what do you, what do you do with people who know nothing? 18:14 Or, or, you know, but are really eager to learn. 18:19 I've suggested actually Khan Academy, thank you. 18:22 And John, that's good. 18:24 But beyond that, what, what do you suggest? 18:26 What do you, what do you tell them? 18:28 >> Well, first off, they've started with the right attitude. 18:30 I think that's huge to not feel like you're starting out and 18:33 that you feel stupid. 18:38 And, why don't i know this already? 18:40 To have that eagerness and 18:42 excitement about it, is like you can't go any further without that to start with. 18:43 And then doing something like KHAN academy, 18:49 that gives you the basics, what's a variable? 18:51 What's a loop? 18:54 You know, all those things, and then project based, Having a mentor. 18:54 Kind of help you and to have something in mind that you want to build, 19:01 because there are so many tools and so many pieces that go together and 19:06 then just start to build from the ground up and learn like, you know, 19:10 when I started with Web RTC, I didn't, you know, what's an NPM, you know? 19:13 So I had to start somewhere and start building out of that, 19:20 I knew what I wanted to do, so I started. 19:23 Building on those technologies, and when you have that basic knowledge you know, 19:25 it makes it a little bit easier. 19:29 But it's very intimidating to just look at this full stack and, 19:31 you know, without something, a goal in mind. 19:35 >> Mm. >> Just enroll them in 19:38 a four year university and. 19:42 >> [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] 19:44 >> At Stripe we have a lot of people who, 19:45 who are interested. 19:46 At, rather in sales or risk people or something like that and 19:48 we will run classes taught by developers, developers love teaching other people for 19:54 the most part, so use your internal resources. 19:58 Stay an hour late and you can do really fun projects. 20:01 I think the one I did last year, I'm remote so 20:04 I rarely get to do them, but the one I did while I was there was. 20:07 We wrote an animated gif capture. 20:10 And then we put a function block that was pre-made that already gave 20:13 you some variables for pixels. 20:17 And then you could just change the pixel color values and 20:19 essentially write filters over animated gifs. 20:22 But you, you're essentially working in this tiny little section and 20:24 then at the end of the day. 20:27 Everyone learns about loops and variables and how to change numbers and multiply and 20:28 do all that kinda stuff and then, then they show off their animated gifs and 20:32 it's fun and, so you can have little pro, I mean, that's very specific, I'm sorry. 20:35 [LAUGH] But you can have little contests and projects. 20:40 I also run contests among all of our interns. 20:43 Every kind of path to say, like who can wrote the best parser because none of 20:46 them have wrote a parser before and I need all of them to know how. 20:50 For no reason. [LAUGH] I feel like, 20:54 I feel like it is an important skill. 20:56 I think about like a sign, an XKCD print and I was like. 20:59 That the co, my code is compiling one, or whatever. 21:03 And I said whoever writes the fastest parser for 21:05 this made up I think I called it Emota Bars, template language. 21:07 That they win this. 21:11 And they all compete and benchmark all their stuff and 21:12 there's tests, they'll share test case. 21:16 So that you'd learn a lot. 21:17 So I, yeah. Projects are really good. 21:19 >> Yeah. >> And, and working 21:21 together with other people. 21:22 >> Yeah. >> And a little bit of competition, 21:23 you know, it's. 21:24 Makes it interesting. 21:25 Yeah. >> Mm-hm. 21:26 >> You have to keep them engaged though. 21:28 It's really easy to like, stop as soon it's done. 21:29 >> Mm-hm. >> Yeah, and I think, 21:32 one of the big important parts about having a mentor in place is the fact that 21:33 you could help them make sure they don't bite off more than they can chew. 21:37 Because, you know, the initiative they'll be like and we have all these things and 21:42 there'll be stuff flying around and then like, you're like, okay, 21:45 well, let's narrow the scope a little bit. 21:48 Like, like what's the bare minimum you need to like actually have 21:50 this be a thing. 21:53 And then, and then, 21:54 so just keep, you don't wanna be a downer, but you kinda have to be a downer. 21:54 You're like, dude, like, okay, let's just think a little bit smaller and 21:58 think a little bit smaller until they're just getting at the very core what 22:00 they wanna do. 22:03 And then you can slowly introduce new technologies and work them, back up again. 22:04 >> Start with vertically centering text in CSS. 22:09 [LAUGH] >> Oh, we do have the mic over here. 22:12 >> Hi so I feel quite the opposite sometimes. 22:18 I feel like sometimes we've made it too easy to learn web development. 22:22 And by that I mean that a lot of the JavaScript libraries and frameworks out 22:27 there more and more reduced to last lines of code really complex behavior. 22:32 And I get concerned about that because. 22:42 I feel less secure about my job. 22:47 [LAUGH] You know, if that makes sense. 22:50 >> Well, I mean, it's, it's, 22:55 I would say it's the sort of the rails mentality like when rails came out, 22:56 before that point there weren't that many NBC server-side frameworks. 23:01 Works. 23:04 And then, essentially, they introduced, like, when, 23:05 when they first launched there was like that, that video that released, 23:07 like making a blog in like a minute or two and they just had like the command line. 23:11 Just like, it just generated it. 23:15 They tweaked some variables and they like poof there's a blog. 23:16 And, like, up until that point if you wanted to write a blog it was like, 23:19 it was an evolved thing and essentially just made like a blog generator. 23:22 Generator. 23:25 This is a multi, anyway. 23:26 But the. It was, so like, and 23:27 like people flipped out. 23:29 Like, like. [LAUGH] 23:31 When people were like really upset. 23:31 They were scared and 23:33 upset and they were like there's too much magic happening in here. 23:34 And I think that some people would still agree. 23:36 That there may be still too much magic in a lot of frameworks. 23:38 and, and I mean. 23:43 And you certainly do see. 23:44 I think you, I feel like you see the same trend here. 23:45 On the client side. 23:47 Like, you know, you know, frameworks that are capable of doing lots of really, 23:50 really complex things, perhaps too easily. 23:54 but, but, I think one of the things here, an, 23:58 and I guess the, the, the, to change your point a little bit, one of the things 24:02 that always scares me about those frameworks isn't necessarily job security. 24:07 It's more the fact that if it doesn't work, if it breaks at some point, 24:11 I have no idea how to fix it. 24:16 Like, like if I, if I have this one thing that is like, dot make awesome and 24:18 then this only, everything is awesome, but like, there is like this one little thing 24:22 that I needed to change at some point later how do I do that if I, 24:25 if I have no idea how it works? 24:28 You know, I think that's one problem, and 24:31 I think that's a, that's a way in which you shouldn't be worried about your 24:33 job security because if you know, how it works, if you know, 24:36 how to build the equivalent thing, then you won't have to ever worry, 24:41 you aren't really competing with a person with someone who drops in an [INAUDIBLE]. 24:46 You know. 24:51 >> I hear you, I was mostly joking there. 24:51 [LAUGH] but, to follow up on that are we in a larger scale doing a disservice 24:53 to a newer generation of developers by sort of abstracting out all of this. 25:02 You know, the meat and 25:07 potatoes of what's really happening there, into more simplified terms. 25:08 I don't know if Lisa or Alex have any thoughts on that. 25:14 >> Let's see. 25:22 [LAUGH] To some extent, yes. 25:22 If they skip over the basics and they're just using that API and 25:24 building stuff and they never, and things break and they just throw their hands up. 25:29 Sure, that's disempowering for sure. 25:32 But at some point they're gonna have to dig in and, or 25:35 they're not gonna be successful. 25:38 They're just not gonna be developers. 25:39 You know, so- >> So, yeah. 25:42 So, so continuing on that question. 25:43 How do we as developers ensure that we, that we don't build so 25:46 many tools that the internet doesn't exist for our children? 25:52 >> I, so I [LAUGH] 25:54 you, you asked why is America the greatest country in there? 25:59 [LAUGH]. 26:04 >> I, I think that's the wrong premise so I, I, reject the question. 26:06 >> [LAUGH] >> I guess both questions. 26:09 >> [LAUGH] But I, I feel like it, I understand where you're coming from, 26:14 but that was the same thing someone said about their flash, and 26:19 that was the same thing someone said. 26:23 About C++ or Java, swing, applications, 26:25 and before that people who did guis, then something else and something else. 26:31 I think it's fine that if we build something that we like more, 26:35 like, how many people are, are, 26:39 like digging into the chromium code that actually renders the. 26:42 The paint, the paints and renders and all that kind of stuff, 26:46 because that's what you used to have to do and now you don't have to do that and so, 26:48 those abstractions have been fine and I think as long as we continue to 26:53 build good abstractions, the good ones will end up in W3C specs. 26:56 You have all sorts of stuff that we. 27:01 We did a jQuery or that are happening now that are moving into native APIs and 27:04 you have the, the scary native mobile applications also innovating and 27:10 we're, we're playing catch up on a lot of those APIs too. 27:15 So I think it will constantly change in holding on to the past where. 27:17 You had to know how to script down libraries by hand, and 27:22 notepad.exe, doesn't need to exist in the future, 27:26 even though we have fond memories from those days, right? 27:29 >> Not, inherently put. 27:33 >> I think one of the things as well is that you, 27:34 I feel like you should be willing to, genuinely want to look for. 27:38 When you're looking at new technologies, I would say it's pry better to go for 27:42 ones that are revolutionary as opposed to incrementally better. 27:46 like, like for example, if, 27:50 if there's, if there are frameworks that are simply taking existing ideas that, but 27:51 are just making them slightly easier to do I don't 27:55 think those are nearly as good as ones that are completely rethinking how we. 27:59 I think about concepts in, in, in, in, in total. 28:03 So, like- 28:06 >> A sick low dash burn. 28:09 [LAUGH] >> I like low dash. 28:11 [LAUGH] But the, like the, the, the, you know, like, for example, 28:12 like lately I've been playing, and I, I guess this extremely cult of the new, 28:18 I've been playing with the Facebook's Reacts JavaScript library. 28:23 And that can not be possibly be any more different from the existing way of 28:26 writing applications. 28:29 It's extremely different and it's breaking my brain. 28:32 But like, I've, I've been, I've been enjoying that that process, and 28:34 I feel like it's helped me, it's starting to help me to think about 28:38 architecting JavaScript applications that are better in a different way. 28:41 Even though I don't necessarily end up writing it for, using it for all of my. 28:44 Code in the end. 28:48 >> Okay, so we have time for one more question, does anybody have a question? 28:49 >> [INAUDIBLE]. 28:54 >> [INAUDIBLE] >> Is everyone, did everyone hear that? 29:06 The yeah, so the, the statement was that there, there will always be 29:14 view source and so we'll always be able to look at the, the HTML and JavaScript. 29:18 Which I, I agree with in principle but 29:23 when you get into things like, like Angular or, you know, 29:25 minified JavaScript, it gets a little more difficult to view source. 29:28 But I, I think you're right in principle. 29:33 >> Well, especially cause like, 29:37 [INAUDIBLE] where you're [COUGH] literally compiling C to JavaScript. 29:39 Like that's not readable by anyone. 29:44 Literally only a computer. 29:46 So like I don't know. 29:48 It's- 29:49 and it's interesting because this is a case where actually 29:51 Richard Stallman, the free software foundation- 29:57 I feel that any sentence that begins with that is going to be interesting. 30:00 But like the like- 30:03 He considers any sort of minification of JavaScript 30:05 to be essentially compiled code that is no longer free. 30:08 So that includes any sort of, 30:12 you know, using like uglify or a closure compiler or any of those things. 30:14 And I, and I can kind of see what he's getting at because in those cases. 30:18 You no longer have a nicely readable block of JavaScript code. 30:23 That like, like, 30:27 I learned from the prototype JavaScript library back when it came out. 30:27 I was reading it, I'm like, this is amazing. 30:30 There are all these sort of functional programming techniques in here I'd never 30:32 seen before and it was so clear and so well-written. 30:35 But whereas, like, you know, 30:38 doing these like really complex compilation steps you now have. 30:39 A 200 K minified JavaScript log is coming down to you and you like that, 30:44 as even though you can technically read the source you can't read it. 30:48 Like, there's nothing there that you can learn. 30:52 So I'd say that the situation as it exists right now even though we 30:54 can technically still have, we still have that right of the view source. 30:58 It is not nearly as, as effective as it was I would say a decade ago. 31:02 >> So with that being said does anybody have 31:06 any burning thoughts before we shut down? 31:07 >> Source maps can, can help with that. 31:11 But it's nice you can still shift minified code in and, 31:13 and people could still read the source but, that's just. 31:16 >> That assumes you want people to. 31:19 >> Correct. >> Yeah, right. 31:20 Well, thanks everybody. 31:26 Thanks to the panelists for sitting with us. 31:27 [APPLAUSE] 31:29