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Hello, Grants.

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>> Hello Ryan.

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>> Thank you so much for

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doing your main stage session
that was tremendously valuable.

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Really excited to do another
session with you here.

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>> Thank you.

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I had a lot of fun and I'm glad for
what Treehouse has given me and

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I'm glad to give back to the community.

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>> Really appreciate that.

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It's just need to see
all the practical tips.

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So we'll let people filter in and join us.

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And then what we'll do is take some
questions from everyone that's here.

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Hey everyone that's joining us.

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Thanks for competent to chat with you and

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really ask a lot of great questions.

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I'm gonna stay in this session and
just share it with you Grant,

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really excited about that.

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So, I have a couple quick questions.

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I know we're about to get started.

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But you said networking was really key for
you, and as a CEO and

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someone that's hired a lot of
people I can vouch for that.

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So I think we might wanna
double-click on that a little bit and

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give people some specific tactics
that they might wanna do.

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So why don't you think about that for
a minute, what can people practically do?

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And also now that we're in, the pandemic,

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how could that be accomplished
without physically meeting people.

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So let's think about that.

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The other thing I'd love to
talk specifically about ,and I

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get this question all the time is,
if you don't have paid

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experience as a developer,
how do you bridge that first gap?

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And how do you explain that
value to potential employers?

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I'd love to hear you talk
specifically about that gap.

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I think that seems to be the one that
plagues all of our students the most.

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>> Okay.

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>> Yeah, so we're here.

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I just wanna officially
welcome you up to the stage.

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Everyone, as you know,

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this is Grant hopefully you've just
joined his main stage session.

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But if you're just joining us today,
Grant recently graduated from

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the Treehouse PHP tech degree program and
has been given the opportunity to

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finally realize his lifelong
dream of becoming a web engineer.

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He utilizes his past experience in being
a successful retail store manager to

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bring a fresh take on a customer service
oriented approach to development and

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team building.

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He enjoys the challenges
presented as an engineer.

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There's always excited to
learn new coding techniques,

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particularly in the realms of PHP,
Python, and TypeScript.

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Welcome Grants.

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>> Hello, everyone.

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Thank you for joining.

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So one of the questions that Ryan
brought up and it's a big question,

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I think everybody has his network.

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And just like anything else,
networking is actually a skill.

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So when I was working in retail,
and especially at home goods,

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we would have like it's a lot less face
to face, but it's the same kind of thing

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where we would have these huge conferences
where everybody would get together.

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And it was an opportunity to
network with other managers and

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executives and CEOs and retail partners.

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And it was a skill to build and it was
a skill that the company looked for.

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And so I learned those skills in my
current role as a retirement and

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well, not my career,
my previous role as retail manager.

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And it's something that I practice and

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it was very valuable because I remember
hearing a story about one of these other

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store managers I was
looking to get promoted.

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And they ran their store perfectly.

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They were doing great sales.

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And they were looking at to
become a district manager.

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Well, the regional manager was observing
them at one of these conferences and

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noticed that they weren't networking.

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And because they weren't going approaching
people because they weren't going in and

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making those connections,
this person was passed up for promotion.

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That being said,
I use that as an opportunity to network.

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So what do I feel like
is a way to network?

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So, in person and sometimes even online
it's almost like speed dating but

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without the chance of
like breaking your heart.

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It is like you learn how to
make these quick conversations.

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You kind of present yourself quickly and
give you a little bit about yourself and

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then you ask questions.

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And the best way that I learned
that leaves the biggest impression

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is not about what you say,
it's about how you make the person feel.

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So those executives and those people that
I was trying to get them to remember me so

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I got promoted is you make them
feel great about themselves.

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You make them either laugh,
make them do something and

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they'll remember you, they'll stick by.

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Another thing that I was talking about
with networking was the reverse example.

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So when I was a store manager,
I went to help out another store, right?

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And this example of how one of
my system managers came to be.

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I was there for
a week making a little bit of help.

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And one of the team members there who was
just a basic team member approached me and

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went, hey, I'm looking to get promoted,
what kind of advice would you give.

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And I talked to him about, things you can
do to get promoted the skills he needed.

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But that initial, five minute conversation
you left with me left an impression.

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So a year from that point, I had an
opening for a system manager and his name

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came up, and I was like, I remember
him from that conversation a year ago.

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He seemed great,

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I don't even need to do an interview just
given to me as an assistant manager.

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Here's opportunity and leave those
impressions because you never know all

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those little seeds you plant
are gonna make an impression.

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So when we're talking about now, online
networking, LinkedIn is a great place.

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But there's ways that you when you go
meet people even LinkedIn asked for

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ways to keep communicating.

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Ask for that help, ask for
y how you can grow and

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get their advice because
the environments different.

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And everyone is still looking for talent,
we are always looking for talent,

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regardless if you say we're hiring or not
because we never know when that opening

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is gonna open up so
we'd like to have a bench.

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So if you get a chance to talk to people,
you get a chance to introduce yourself,

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take that five minutes, learn those quick
low speed getting pay taxes to kind of,

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plug yourself and
then leave that impression and

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then you never know what will
come from that opportunity.

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>> Absolutely, Grant, I wanna explain a
methodology that I usually tell people and

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I'd like to hear your reaction to it,
as someone who recently entered

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the workforce without
a computer science degree.

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So everyone that's in this session is
most likely in a place where they haven't

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had a developer job before and
they don't have a computer science degree.

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And they're probably
about to finish learning,

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or just about to start to learning,
or in the middle, right?

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But they're not job-ready yet.

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So usually, what I encourage people to do,

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is as you're going through
your learning process, so

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say that you are 50% of the way
through the tech degree at Treehouse,

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then what you start to do is identify the
dream companies that you wanna work for.

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So you basically make a list of, I would
encourage people up to 100 companies.

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And you basically say, okay,
I theoretically would like.

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And then you do basically treat
that like the top of the funnel.

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And you treat it like a sales experience,
right?

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So you said it's my 100 targets,
I'm actually gonna start

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building relationships with us
hiring managers at those companies.

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So then what you have to do is
basically do some detective work.

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So you start to dig around on LinkedIn for
each company, and say, okay, who's

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an engineering manager, or who's a design
manager if you're trying to get a UX job.

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Who are they actually, and then you'll
come up with a list of probably

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depending on the company size,
five to ten people at each company.

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You can also try to find people
who are actually engineers there.

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And then you basically put them on a list.

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So at this point for 100 companies,
five people at each company,

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you have about 500 people.

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And then what you start to do is
just march through this every day.

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So you say, okay, each day,

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I'm going to make a LinkedIn connection
request to these five people.

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But instead of saying something like, hey,
I wanna work at your company someday,

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you instead say something
positive about them.

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For instance, I may if I connect to you,
I may say, Grant,

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I really respect the journey
that you've made into tech.

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I've been following your progress,
I'm a big fan.

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And a LinkedIn connection with
a note is way more effective, right?

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It's much more likely to be accepted.

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So then five people a day,
it'll take you 500, five people a day,

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that will take you 100 days
to work through that, right?

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So every day you're contacting five,
you'll eventually get through the 100.

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And then you basically go down
the next stage in the funnel.

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So say two out of those 500,
50% accept your connection request, right?

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So you've got 250 connections now.

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And now you move to the next
stage of the funnel, which is,

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again say something that's a compliment
about them or praise their work.

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It's all about kind of giving And
then, and it might be something like,

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Grant, thanks so much for connecting.

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I've noticed you have this GitHub
repo that you contribute to a lot.

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I really appreciate your work on that.

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And then it's even more likely to respond.

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And what you're doing is just
building this kind of seed,

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like you said,
planting all these seeds of relationships.

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And you're not even gonna mention you're
looking for a job until maybe the third or

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fourth interaction.

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And at that point, Grant might say, I kind
of like Ryan, he seems to make an effort.

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He seems to be working hard.

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And then when I come back in and

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say I'm really looking forward for
my first position in tech.

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I've worked really hard.

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Here's some of my projects.

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I'll keep you up to date
on my job search as I go.

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And so you basically those 500 people and
you probably end up with

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about 50 that you've actually
developed a relationship with.

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And then at that point, you could say,
okay, I'm ready to apply,

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here's my resume.

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And you're much more likely
to be put forward for

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that job instead of applying cold.

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So, with what do you think
of that methodology?

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How practical is that?

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>> I think that's very practical.

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It shows planning, it shows dedication,
and it shows creating those seeds.

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It's almost like they get
to see your journey and

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know more about you before you
even get to that interview stage.

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And that can be, I think, is more
important than the actual interview

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because I want my employees would ask me,
hey, Grant,

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how do I become an assistant manager?

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I was like, they need to know your name
before you even apply for the job.

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And that's the same method now but
in different environment.

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These people need to know your name and
know about you before you even apply for

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the position, and
that is a great method of doing that.

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>> So I do wanna call out, right?

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I mean, I identify as white.

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I don't know if you identify as white.

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We're both men, right?

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We have a ton of privilege, right?

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And the thing, and what we're trying
to encourage everybody here to do

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is you're essentially trying to
navigate that systematic privilege

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by building a relationship
first before you apply, right?

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So if you are someone that is
underrepresented in tech, we do understand

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that you're going to have to work harder
to build those initial relationships.

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But it's the initial relationship that
will most likely get you the interview,

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because there is a system and
it is a problem.

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But if you try to navigate that
by building a relationship first,

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it's much more likely you'll
be given that interview.

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Because they know you and it's not nice
to admit but people tend to choose

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people that they are familiar with and
they feel friendly towards them.

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So you want to open that door to make
that first friendly interaction.

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>> Definitely, it's kind of weird but
when you know the people,

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the interview becomes almost
a formality and not a natural process.

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They're just doing that to check off a box
on their list that they already know they

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wanna hire you because they've
seen what you've done.

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>> Yeah.
>> And

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that's a great way to overcome
that because going and cold,

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we have to deal with some unconscious
bias training at home goods.

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It is something that we all have.

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It's something we all need to consciously
deal with but we don't because

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it is requires some sort, and
everyone has some kind conscious bias and

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unfortunately, people who are
underrepresented have to deal with that.

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And that is a great way to overcome that,
battle their subconscious bias

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before we even get to that interview,
because then you already have the job.

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>> Yes, so
the other thing I want to by you and

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then we've got some
questions I want to do.

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How do you overcome the lack
of paid experience?

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And what I've been talking, what I've
been encouraging people to do is as

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you're going through, say a tech degree or
Coursera course or Udacity or

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wherever you're learning, you start
to build a real world project, right?

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So it's a website at first and
then it's probably a web app after that.

228
00:14:32,115 --> 00:14:37,332
As soon as you feel like you've
built your first okay project

229
00:14:37,332 --> 00:14:42,051
that it works,
that may not be amazing, but it works.

230
00:14:42,051 --> 00:14:44,471
Then I always ask people to say,

231
00:14:44,471 --> 00:14:49,417
go find friends in your local
community who own a small business.

232
00:14:49,417 --> 00:14:52,596
A butcher, a hairdresser, an accountancy,

233
00:14:52,596 --> 00:14:57,729
somebody that's really small but
they know you, and then basically say,

234
00:14:57,729 --> 00:15:02,470
hey, I just learned how to build
websites or web apps or mobile apps.

235
00:15:02,470 --> 00:15:09,349
Can I build you a new website or a new
web app for your business for 50 bucks?

236
00:15:09,349 --> 00:15:14,171
Like, as cheap as you could possibly say,
to get them to say yes.

237
00:15:14,171 --> 00:15:16,990
And because you are friends,
they'll probably go, yeah, sure.

238
00:15:16,990 --> 00:15:19,330
I mean,
they may not even necessarily use it.

239
00:15:19,330 --> 00:15:24,855
But then you have your first payment
[INAUDIBLE] paid project on your resume,

240
00:15:24,855 --> 00:15:26,682
and then you do it again.

241
00:15:26,682 --> 00:15:31,441
And then you go to another business and
say, hey, I built the site for so and so.

242
00:15:31,441 --> 00:15:35,019
Can I build one for you for $100, right?

243
00:15:35,019 --> 00:15:37,524
And then they go, yeah,
sure, that's nothing.

244
00:15:37,524 --> 00:15:38,986
Then you do it again and

245
00:15:38,986 --> 00:15:44,762
you kind of ladder up to the point where
you charge your first like $1,000 project.

246
00:15:44,762 --> 00:15:46,352
And then on your resume,

247
00:15:46,352 --> 00:15:50,147
you have real paid projects
that actually live in the wild.

248
00:15:50,147 --> 00:15:52,088
They have URLs.

249
00:15:52,088 --> 00:15:57,072
You've been paid, so
you've kind of escaped that,

250
00:15:57,072 --> 00:16:00,846
I don't have paid experience barrier.

251
00:16:00,846 --> 00:16:04,787
What holes do you see
that in that methodology?

252
00:16:07,130 --> 00:16:09,035
>> So I've actually done that.

253
00:16:09,035 --> 00:16:12,002
I actually built a website for
a company friend for

254
00:16:12,002 --> 00:16:14,418
their business when I was starting off.

255
00:16:14,418 --> 00:16:18,708
And when I look back, I cringe but
it was an early project.

256
00:16:18,708 --> 00:16:22,760
It is a good way to build that resume.

257
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,686
There's also things like Fiverr and
Upwork and

258
00:16:26,686 --> 00:16:32,291
other freelance jobs if you don't
have someone in your community.

259
00:16:32,291 --> 00:16:37,688
But getting any kind of work experience,
doing projects for other people

260
00:16:37,688 --> 00:16:43,714
not personally chose that someone trusted
you to do something and you succeeded.

261
00:16:43,714 --> 00:16:45,544
Because it's different
than a personal project.

262
00:16:45,544 --> 00:16:49,720
There's someone accountability,
someone's livelihood on that.

263
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,183
So that is a great way to show
experience without actually having

264
00:16:54,183 --> 00:16:59,156
a paid experience or even kind of any
kind of experience with projects.

265
00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:01,416
>> So, cool, thanks, Grant.

266
00:17:01,416 --> 00:17:06,353
I think both of you and I are trying
to say, the moment not to show your

267
00:17:06,353 --> 00:17:11,914
imposter syndrome, which we all have
like I literally have that as the CEO.

268
00:17:11,914 --> 00:17:15,671
The moment not to show it
is on your resume, right?

269
00:17:15,671 --> 00:17:20,723
Because what you're doing that's
you're exuding confidence that you

270
00:17:20,723 --> 00:17:25,620
know you don't have honestly, but
it's important that you don't.

271
00:17:25,620 --> 00:17:29,837
You're not overly humble on your
resume because you'll just shoot

272
00:17:29,837 --> 00:17:31,251
yourself in the foot.

273
00:17:31,251 --> 00:17:33,919
So let's take some quick
questions though and make sure.

274
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:37,179
Thanks for entertaining those two things.

275
00:17:37,179 --> 00:17:39,808
Those are the two biggest
things I get over and over and

276
00:17:39,808 --> 00:17:41,164
over again from students.

277
00:17:41,164 --> 00:17:42,460
I want to make sure we cover them.

278
00:17:42,460 --> 00:17:45,640
[COUGH] So
the first question from Nikolai was,

279
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,543
what do you think are the indicators
that you are ready to look for a job?

280
00:17:50,543 --> 00:17:56,312
How do you know when you've
gathered enough knowledge and

281
00:17:56,312 --> 00:17:59,147
worked on enough projects?

282
00:17:59,147 --> 00:18:05,064
>> That's sometimes a personal question
but based on your level of confidence.

283
00:18:05,064 --> 00:18:09,549
I struggled with that early, so
I was like, there's so much to learn.

284
00:18:09,549 --> 00:18:11,292
When will I know enough?

285
00:18:11,292 --> 00:18:16,548
And the answer I came up with was let
the interviewer tell you, apply for

286
00:18:16,548 --> 00:18:21,821
those positions and see what you're
lacking and then improve on that.

287
00:18:21,821 --> 00:18:26,765
Go through those interviews and then
when they go, sorry, I didn't know that.

288
00:18:26,765 --> 00:18:28,792
Next time you bet that for
the next interview, and

289
00:18:28,792 --> 00:18:31,463
then you keep going until you've
answered all those questions.

290
00:18:31,463 --> 00:18:35,972
And then I think that's a great way to
get the feedback because there's just so

291
00:18:35,972 --> 00:18:36,874
much to learn.

292
00:18:36,874 --> 00:18:40,326
It's impossible to do
it in a timely manner.

293
00:18:40,326 --> 00:18:42,786
You need a job, but
you don't need to know it all to get that.

294
00:18:42,786 --> 00:18:43,591
>> Yes.

295
00:18:43,591 --> 00:18:46,904
>> And those people are the best people
to give you that advice on what's most

296
00:18:46,904 --> 00:18:47,606
left to learn.

297
00:18:47,606 --> 00:18:51,335
>> Amen, and I agree, and I'm saying,
Grant, the thing that for

298
00:18:51,335 --> 00:18:56,034
everyone to understand is that all of the
skills that are listed on a job listing,

299
00:18:56,034 --> 00:18:57,849
many of them are nice to haves.

300
00:18:57,849 --> 00:19:02,271
And so if you look at them and
say you need a 100% of them,

301
00:19:02,271 --> 00:19:04,137
you'll never be ready.

302
00:19:04,137 --> 00:19:08,816
There's also research to prove that men
are more likely to apply for jobs when

303
00:19:08,816 --> 00:19:14,003
they don't meet all the requirements and
women are less likely, which hurts women.

304
00:19:14,003 --> 00:19:18,193
And so I want to encourage everybody to
understand that everything that's listed

305
00:19:18,193 --> 00:19:19,357
is not a requirement.

306
00:19:19,357 --> 00:19:24,735
For instance, we built the tech degree
to make sure that you're ready for

307
00:19:24,735 --> 00:19:26,489
a junior role, right?

308
00:19:26,489 --> 00:19:32,269
To complete a tech degree, you're going to
have the practical knowledge to apply for

309
00:19:32,269 --> 00:19:35,415
a junior role,
even if you don't feel ready.

310
00:19:35,415 --> 00:19:39,851
And so don't let yourself
get discouraged by that.

311
00:19:39,851 --> 00:19:42,986
Next question from Mel.

312
00:19:42,986 --> 00:19:48,811
I have a very eclectic work history,
including FedEx Office as well.

313
00:19:48,811 --> 00:19:53,742
I've done an extremely wide variety of
jobs until now, none of which are in tech,

314
00:19:53,742 --> 00:19:55,252
in the tech field per se.

315
00:19:55,252 --> 00:19:58,333
How would you recommend that I build
my resume without tech experience in

316
00:19:58,333 --> 00:20:00,317
a way that would appeal
to a recruiter in tech?

317
00:20:00,317 --> 00:20:02,449
And we've touched on this a little bit,
but

318
00:20:02,449 --> 00:20:04,502
why don't you answer a little bit more?

319
00:20:04,502 --> 00:20:08,980
Yeah, so think about the things that.

320
00:20:08,980 --> 00:20:13,126
So, in FedEx office, we had to do
project management, time management.

321
00:20:13,126 --> 00:20:15,817
We would have seven to
ten projects stands, so

322
00:20:15,817 --> 00:20:18,094
those are literally equal to tickets.

323
00:20:18,094 --> 00:20:20,940
And you have to prioritize, so
show how you prioritize that.

324
00:20:20,940 --> 00:20:23,212
Show how you made your projects on time.

325
00:20:23,212 --> 00:20:27,567
Show how you did, if you weren't
getting close to your projects on time.

326
00:20:27,567 --> 00:20:33,080
Show how you organize yourself, show how
you can plan things and problem solve.

327
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,856
That's what I did for
my FedEx office experience.

328
00:20:34,856 --> 00:20:36,472
That's how I showed that.

329
00:20:36,472 --> 00:20:39,198
The other jobs are show your soft skills.

330
00:20:39,198 --> 00:20:40,782
Show how you teamwork.

331
00:20:40,782 --> 00:20:45,622
I work 100% remote from my current job,
but there's so much teamwork that needs to

332
00:20:45,622 --> 00:20:50,016
happen and so much collaboration,
that those are amazing things to show too.

333
00:20:50,016 --> 00:20:51,904
How did you communicate?

334
00:20:51,904 --> 00:20:57,137
Communication skills are so important
right now, especially with Slack.

335
00:20:57,137 --> 00:20:59,272
The biggest issue I find, and

336
00:20:59,272 --> 00:21:04,741
this is something that I actually even
practiced in the Treehouse program,

337
00:21:04,741 --> 00:21:10,654
was how you say something is almost more
important than what you are trying to say.

338
00:21:10,654 --> 00:21:14,619
You might be telling somebody like,
hey, your program is broken.

339
00:21:14,619 --> 00:21:19,353
But one way comes off as an attack and
one way comes off as support.

340
00:21:19,353 --> 00:21:22,147
And so you can show that you
practice on communication,

341
00:21:22,147 --> 00:21:26,376
you work on your customer service skills,
you work on your timing task management.

342
00:21:26,376 --> 00:21:30,494
And highlight those big key things
that you are doing today or

343
00:21:30,494 --> 00:21:35,095
you have done in the past, to show
that you have these core skills for

344
00:21:35,095 --> 00:21:39,964
Scrum or agile or whatever you need,
because the concepts is the same.

345
00:21:39,964 --> 00:21:42,123
>> Thank you, Eric and Grant.

346
00:21:42,123 --> 00:21:46,948
I think what Grant and I are saying
though that, before you even answer that

347
00:21:46,948 --> 00:21:51,008
question, before you even apply for
the job, you have to build

348
00:21:51,008 --> 00:21:55,781
a relationship with the company and
the people that you're applying to.

349
00:21:55,781 --> 00:22:01,143
The brutal reality is that most jobs get
filled by people that someone knows.

350
00:22:01,143 --> 00:22:04,728
It's the majority of hires
are made that way, so

351
00:22:04,728 --> 00:22:08,324
you have to work on
building that relationship.

352
00:22:08,324 --> 00:22:14,320
So, what Grant and I are saying is,
approach this like a sales job, right?

353
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:14,900
>> Yep.

354
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:18,423
>> You make a list and
you start working your way through it.

355
00:22:18,423 --> 00:22:23,040
But instead of asking for the job, what
you're doing is building a relationship.

356
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:24,181
>> Yep.

357
00:22:24,181 --> 00:22:28,019
>> And one course that we
don't teach at Treehouse, and

358
00:22:28,019 --> 00:22:30,159
I think we will at some point.

359
00:22:30,159 --> 00:22:37,086
There's a masterclass by
Chris Voss on negotiation.

360
00:22:37,086 --> 00:22:41,017
And the most valuable part
of it is how to mirror.

361
00:22:41,017 --> 00:22:45,570
And so mirroring is something that
humans can do to actually make

362
00:22:45,570 --> 00:22:47,267
someone like you more.

363
00:22:47,267 --> 00:22:50,782
And it sounds Machiavellian and
evil, but it's not.

364
00:22:50,782 --> 00:22:54,803
All you're doing is, basically,
asking a leading question.

365
00:22:54,803 --> 00:23:00,782
Like Grant, it sounds like you're really
passionate about solving problems.

366
00:23:00,782 --> 00:23:02,848
And then you'll just talk, right?

367
00:23:02,848 --> 00:23:06,295
And then at some point,
you'll say something like, yeah,

368
00:23:06,295 --> 00:23:08,199
I just just love helping people.

369
00:23:08,199 --> 00:23:10,748
And I'll say, you love helping people?

370
00:23:10,748 --> 00:23:12,962
And then you'll talk some more, right?

371
00:23:12,962 --> 00:23:18,857
And what I'm doing is just drawing you out
and building that liking between you and

372
00:23:18,857 --> 00:23:24,334
me, and then it's more likely you'll
have another conversation with me.

373
00:23:24,334 --> 00:23:28,735
And so everybody, what you're doing is
really selling getting that next meeting

374
00:23:28,735 --> 00:23:33,068
with that person, and or that next email,
and then and then after three or four,

375
00:23:33,068 --> 00:23:34,851
then you can say, you know what,

376
00:23:34,851 --> 00:23:37,873
I'm really passionate about
working at your company.

377
00:23:37,873 --> 00:23:40,212
I'm not ready to apply yet,
but just so you know,

378
00:23:40,212 --> 00:23:42,396
I'm gonna apply in
probably a couple months.

379
00:23:42,396 --> 00:23:44,352
And then they'll say, you know what,

380
00:23:44,352 --> 00:23:46,850
I'm gonna talk to the hiring
manager about that.

381
00:23:46,850 --> 00:23:51,926
And so everyone needs to understand
this is how hiring really happens,

382
00:23:51,926 --> 00:23:56,673
right, and so the more you go with
that process, the better, so.

383
00:23:56,673 --> 00:24:00,255
>> And even if you could do that and
they don't hire you, you can ask them,

384
00:24:00,255 --> 00:24:03,019
I'm gonna give you a reference,
you're so amazing.

385
00:24:03,019 --> 00:24:04,583
I wish I could hire you, but I can't.

386
00:24:04,583 --> 00:24:07,611
But because I am somebody at this level
at this company, they'll take my word for

387
00:24:07,611 --> 00:24:08,959
it and somebody else will hire you.

388
00:24:08,959 --> 00:24:10,479
>> Yes, I love that, Grant.

389
00:24:10,479 --> 00:24:11,400
That's great.

390
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,159
So, some more great questions.

391
00:24:14,159 --> 00:24:21,189
How do you navigate sites like Indeed
when they feel very overwhelming.

392
00:24:21,189 --> 00:24:25,901
>> I had to take a step back for
a second and

393
00:24:25,901 --> 00:24:31,643
then just narrow it down
to almost by zip code,

394
00:24:31,643 --> 00:24:34,302
and then by keyword.

395
00:24:34,302 --> 00:24:37,929
And then sometimes I would just
stop looking for a minute.

396
00:24:37,929 --> 00:24:42,729
Just I'm gonna refocus back on myself,
reset, then come back to it and

397
00:24:42,729 --> 00:24:44,175
see what else is new.

398
00:24:44,175 --> 00:24:45,871
I mean, there was brief periods of time.

399
00:24:45,871 --> 00:24:49,839
So, I studied PHP and everything
that was coming to me was front end.

400
00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:53,496
And I was like, I'm not a front end
developer, I'm a back end developer.

401
00:24:53,496 --> 00:24:54,829
But what should I do?

402
00:24:54,829 --> 00:24:56,237
And it kinda made me confused.

403
00:24:56,237 --> 00:25:00,231
So I have to stop and go back and
focus on what I really wanted to do.

404
00:25:00,231 --> 00:25:05,114
And just let me only filter out
those keywords that I really want.

405
00:25:05,114 --> 00:25:08,933
Too much information gives you
decision overload, decision fatigue.

406
00:25:08,933 --> 00:25:11,097
So just filter to exactly, as I said,

407
00:25:11,097 --> 00:25:14,086
don't do the shotgun
approach in my presentation.

408
00:25:14,086 --> 00:25:18,885
Do just what you want, know that you want
that and go for that kind of position or

409
00:25:18,885 --> 00:25:19,559
company.

410
00:25:19,559 --> 00:25:22,679
>> Cool, and just remember everybody.

411
00:25:22,679 --> 00:25:28,727
Actually, the job listing sites
are really the last step of your process,

412
00:25:28,727 --> 00:25:30,653
not the first, right?

413
00:25:30,653 --> 00:25:35,263
So what you should be doing first is
building that relationship funnel.

414
00:25:35,263 --> 00:25:40,801
So, it's likely you're not even going to
use sites like Indeed in the end, what's

415
00:25:40,801 --> 00:25:46,495
likely to happen is that you identify the
100 companies you wanna work for, you work

416
00:25:46,495 --> 00:25:51,957
your behind off to build relationships
with 500 people are at those companies.

417
00:25:51,957 --> 00:25:56,360
And then a couple of months out from when
you're actually ready you start to say,

418
00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:57,933
I'm gonna start applying.

419
00:25:57,933 --> 00:26:03,651
And then you're gonna hear about job
offers from them that aren't even listed,

420
00:26:03,651 --> 00:26:08,293
or they will recommend you for
the job and you'll jump the queue.

421
00:26:08,293 --> 00:26:11,578
So just remember if you start to
feel overwhelemed by Indeed or

422
00:26:11,578 --> 00:26:15,512
any of those other things,
you're probably approaching it backwards.

423
00:26:15,512 --> 00:26:17,551
You should be building
relationships first.

424
00:26:17,551 --> 00:26:20,109
Now, someone did ask me a question,
I just noticed what they said.

425
00:26:20,109 --> 00:26:23,284
Well, who are you building
relationships with at the company?

426
00:26:23,284 --> 00:26:27,159
What job titles, Grant, should people
be focusing on in those 500 or

427
00:26:27,159 --> 00:26:30,029
100 companies that they're
looking to work for?

428
00:26:31,917 --> 00:26:34,510
>> Well, the higher up the better, but

429
00:26:34,510 --> 00:26:39,533
that doesn't necessarily mean that
is the correct approach, because

430
00:26:39,533 --> 00:26:45,071
anyone at a company can at least lead you
to the right person, and at any level.

431
00:26:45,071 --> 00:26:49,558
Whether it's the person who brings him
coffee to all the way to the directors.

432
00:26:49,558 --> 00:26:53,342
Because they can go, hey,
I know this great person, take a look.

433
00:26:53,342 --> 00:26:56,927
And because of that relationship they've
built with someone else in the company who

434
00:26:56,927 --> 00:26:59,159
has the decisions,
they'll give you that chance.

435
00:26:59,159 --> 00:27:00,732
>> Agreed.

436
00:27:00,732 --> 00:27:05,197
This is exactly the problem,
do you sell top down or bottom up?

437
00:27:05,197 --> 00:27:07,739
>> Right.
>> So do you go for the CEO or CTO or

438
00:27:07,739 --> 00:27:12,385
VP of engineering or VP of buying,
or you just go for a designer and

439
00:27:12,385 --> 00:27:14,004
then work your way up?

440
00:27:14,004 --> 00:27:18,342
I would encourage everyone who is a new
new person in the industry to sell

441
00:27:18,342 --> 00:27:19,074
bottom up.

442
00:27:19,074 --> 00:27:24,257
So, build relationships with other new
junior developers at that company, right?

443
00:27:24,257 --> 00:27:28,259
Cuz they're gonna advocate for you,
they're gonna have time to reply.

444
00:27:28,259 --> 00:27:33,134
If you're going in and trying to build
a relationship with a VP of engineering,

445
00:27:33,134 --> 00:27:35,630
or VP of design, they're just so busy.

446
00:27:35,630 --> 00:27:39,029
They're also not gonna be excited
about hiring a junior, so

447
00:27:39,029 --> 00:27:41,575
I think it might be better
to work your way up.

448
00:27:41,575 --> 00:27:45,322
So, look for people that are junior
developers or designers or

449
00:27:45,322 --> 00:27:47,453
first time engineering managers.

450
00:27:47,453 --> 00:27:52,225
Right, so, okay, I'm gonna,
let me get to the questions.

451
00:27:52,225 --> 00:27:55,155
This is so much fun to talk about
cuz this is really where the rubber

452
00:27:55,155 --> 00:27:56,287
meets the road, right?

453
00:27:56,287 --> 00:27:58,319
How do you get the job?

454
00:27:58,319 --> 00:28:06,623
Okay, may I ask, did all job interviews
have a practical coding exercise?

455
00:28:06,623 --> 00:28:09,327
Any tips on preparing for them?

456
00:28:09,327 --> 00:28:12,769
>> Actually,
all the ones that I interviewed for

457
00:28:12,769 --> 00:28:16,394
did have an initial
practical coding exercise.

458
00:28:16,394 --> 00:28:18,698
How to prepare for that.

459
00:28:18,698 --> 00:28:22,270
It was something like, I was very nervous
about it first, and honestly probably

460
00:28:22,270 --> 00:28:25,698
still nervous about it now, because
you don't know what you're gonna get.

461
00:28:25,698 --> 00:28:30,384
What I realized is though, just like
when you're working in programming,

462
00:28:30,384 --> 00:28:32,002
everything is open book.

463
00:28:32,002 --> 00:28:35,029
No one's gonna be at work going, hey,
why are you googling how to solve that?

464
00:28:35,029 --> 00:28:36,370
You should have that memorized.

465
00:28:36,370 --> 00:28:38,210
[LAUGH] Are you on Stack Overflow?

466
00:28:38,210 --> 00:28:39,138
No, get off of that.

467
00:28:39,138 --> 00:28:41,187
>> [LAUGH]
>> [LAUGH] No one says that at work.

468
00:28:41,187 --> 00:28:41,725
>> [LAUGH]
>> So

469
00:28:41,725 --> 00:28:44,564
those type of coding exercises have those.

470
00:28:44,564 --> 00:28:48,712
Now that being said, I wouldn't copy and
paste an answer, but you can look up how

471
00:28:48,712 --> 00:28:52,678
to do things and figure out the problem
yourself, and that's totally fine.

472
00:28:52,678 --> 00:28:58,358
So if you think of it that way,
you should be all right.

473
00:28:58,358 --> 00:29:00,459
>> So a lot of companies, I would say,

474
00:29:00,459 --> 00:29:05,728
are not doing whiteboard style interviews
as much, they're doing take home projects.

475
00:29:05,728 --> 00:29:08,330
>> Yeah, I would get an email and
a website to do it in.

476
00:29:08,330 --> 00:29:14,395
>> Yeah, so I would encourage everybody,
you might have both experiences.

477
00:29:14,395 --> 00:29:18,420
If you do a computer science
problem on a whiteboard for

478
00:29:18,420 --> 00:29:23,857
a junior engineering role, it's
probably not a good company to work at.

479
00:29:23,857 --> 00:29:24,534
>> Yeah.

480
00:29:24,534 --> 00:29:29,618
>> That does happen and honestly,
I wouldn't spend your time killing

481
00:29:29,618 --> 00:29:35,236
yourself preparing for that, I would
be prepared for a take home project,

482
00:29:35,236 --> 00:29:39,799
which then you can attack like
any project you would tackle.

483
00:29:39,799 --> 00:29:43,802
So these are great, my gosh,
there's so many questions here.

484
00:29:43,802 --> 00:29:46,297
Let me grab another one.

485
00:29:48,427 --> 00:29:52,819
Do you have any tips on how to present
confidence when pursuing a tech career

486
00:29:52,819 --> 00:29:54,714
when it seems so intimidating.

487
00:29:56,974 --> 00:30:01,759
>> I used to tell my employees that you
kind of just fake it till you make it.

488
00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:08,153
I mean, confidence comes
from Your experience, right?

489
00:30:08,153 --> 00:30:10,188
So, if you practice enough, and

490
00:30:10,188 --> 00:30:13,750
you if you are confident in
the knowledge of what you have,

491
00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:18,938
even if you don't know what else they're
gonna ask, you be confident in that part.

492
00:30:18,938 --> 00:30:23,172
And it's also okay to be confident going,
I don't know that answer, but

493
00:30:23,172 --> 00:30:26,264
I'm confident that I can
learn that answer, right?

494
00:30:26,264 --> 00:30:29,543
That's important in tech,
because we don't always have the answer.

495
00:30:29,543 --> 00:30:31,880
I mean, even our ponies,
a senior developers,

496
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,248
they don't know all the answers,
they're always looking up stuff.

497
00:30:35,248 --> 00:30:39,400
But being able to figure things out, and
being able to know that you're confident

498
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,728
your ability to figure things out,
that's the most important.

499
00:30:42,728 --> 00:30:46,697
So if you know you have that skill, and
you're confident what you already do know,

500
00:30:46,697 --> 00:30:50,002
it's okay to say I don't know that,
but I know I can figure that out.

501
00:30:50,002 --> 00:30:52,521
>> Amen, and again,
this is why it's important to

502
00:30:52,521 --> 00:30:55,539
build a relationship before
you even take the interview.

503
00:30:55,539 --> 00:31:00,370
If the interview is with someone that
already has a liking towards you, because

504
00:31:00,370 --> 00:31:05,344
you've done the work of mirroring them,
and supporting them, and building that

505
00:31:05,344 --> 00:31:10,634
relationship, they're much more likely to
not try to make you fail in the interview.

506
00:31:10,634 --> 00:31:13,843
If they're not interviewing,
they'll probably tell the hiring manager.

507
00:31:13,843 --> 00:31:14,801
You know what?

508
00:31:14,801 --> 00:31:17,997
This person shown all the right
behavior they're proactive,

509
00:31:17,997 --> 00:31:19,451
they're interested in us.

510
00:31:19,451 --> 00:31:26,383
They ask great questions, they work
real hard, I hope we can hire them.

511
00:31:26,383 --> 00:31:30,627
It's more likely that, that unconscious
bias will then be in your favor.

512
00:31:30,627 --> 00:31:31,562
>> Yeah
>> And

513
00:31:31,562 --> 00:31:34,824
Grant and I aren't saying the unconscious
bias is a good thing, right?

514
00:31:34,824 --> 00:31:36,488
What we're saying is
that it's a real thing.

515
00:31:36,488 --> 00:31:37,421
>> Yeah.

516
00:31:37,421 --> 00:31:42,156
>> You have to use the techniques in order
to navigate it as a junior engineer, and

517
00:31:42,156 --> 00:31:44,611
especially if you're not a white male.

518
00:31:44,611 --> 00:31:47,578
Okay, more questions.

519
00:31:47,578 --> 00:31:55,665
Do you have any current mentors who helped
you through this interview process?

520
00:31:55,665 --> 00:32:01,984
>> Interview process, so
one of my friends is a developer.

521
00:32:01,984 --> 00:32:06,859
I was lucky enough for
my sisters actually also an engineer,

522
00:32:06,859 --> 00:32:09,449
and I would ask them questions.

523
00:32:09,449 --> 00:32:14,117
But also I would also talk to the
recruiters that at least shared with me.

524
00:32:14,117 --> 00:32:18,353
So in speaking with them, I asked them
like, what are these questions like?

525
00:32:18,353 --> 00:32:21,640
What can I expect to these interviews?

526
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,753
And those recruiters
are happy to tell you,

527
00:32:23,753 --> 00:32:26,505
they'll coach you because they
want you to get that job.

528
00:32:26,505 --> 00:32:28,708
And they'll tell you
exactly what to expect, and

529
00:32:28,708 --> 00:32:30,236
they'll tell you how to prepare.

530
00:32:30,236 --> 00:32:34,951
Now, I have to solicit for those answers,
but advocate for yourself,

531
00:32:34,951 --> 00:32:39,679
ask the questions, and make sure you
get all the information you need.

532
00:32:39,679 --> 00:32:43,966
You're not bothering people, and
if that person is bothered by you,

533
00:32:43,966 --> 00:32:46,955
then there's the wrong
person to be talking to.

534
00:32:46,955 --> 00:32:50,655
Stand up for yourself,
get all the information you need.

535
00:32:50,655 --> 00:32:56,282
That saying it's kind of like when the
nail that sticks out gets hammered down.

536
00:32:56,282 --> 00:32:58,763
Well, this is the reverse,
you wanna stick out.

537
00:32:58,763 --> 00:33:01,526
You want to be the nail this is like,
I can't get this nail down and

538
00:33:01,526 --> 00:33:03,300
keep hammering, but they just stand up.

539
00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:04,146
>> Yeah.

540
00:33:04,146 --> 00:33:05,940
>> And that's what you wanna be,

541
00:33:05,940 --> 00:33:09,952
you want to be that person that is
noticed as advocates for yourself.

542
00:33:09,952 --> 00:33:13,209
Ask those questions, get those resources,
and those are great people to talk to him,

543
00:33:13,209 --> 00:33:15,089
>> Amen, that's great advice, Grant.

544
00:33:15,089 --> 00:33:22,200
I think what, Grant is saying is you wanna
be building to relationship groups, right?

545
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:27,583
And first is potential hiring, managers at
companies, that's what we talked about.

546
00:33:27,583 --> 00:33:31,212
100 companies,
5 people each company, 500 people,

547
00:33:31,212 --> 00:33:34,510
in a march through a sales
process to make them like you.

548
00:33:34,510 --> 00:33:37,659
But there's another group,
which is mentors.

549
00:33:37,659 --> 00:33:42,030
And what Grant is saying is
let's reach out to new junior

550
00:33:42,030 --> 00:33:44,820
engineers who have gotten the job.

551
00:33:44,820 --> 00:33:48,780
And say, I respect you,
I follow your process, and

552
00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:51,213
I wanna be successful like you.

553
00:33:51,213 --> 00:33:56,169
Would you be willing to spend,
30 minutes with me on a Zoom call?

554
00:33:56,169 --> 00:34:00,272
So I can ask you everything I can
about what it was like to go through

555
00:34:00,272 --> 00:34:02,670
the process, what questions we got.

556
00:34:02,670 --> 00:34:08,043
And most people are honored to be asked,
if you say,

557
00:34:08,043 --> 00:34:14,903
I respect you, would you be willing
to spend 30 minutes with me?

558
00:34:14,903 --> 00:34:17,084
People are honored by that, most people.

559
00:34:17,084 --> 00:34:17,920
>> Yeah.

560
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,592
>> Right, and especially if that person's
new in their job, and you're saying,

561
00:34:21,592 --> 00:34:22,512
I wanna be like you.

562
00:34:22,512 --> 00:34:26,095
People tend to wanna
help them pull people up.

563
00:34:26,095 --> 00:34:27,266
>> Yeah.

564
00:34:27,266 --> 00:34:30,328
>> So yeah,
then you can ask all the questions say,

565
00:34:30,328 --> 00:34:34,000
tell me the nitty-gritty
details like what they ask you.

566
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,151
What kind of experience they look for?

567
00:34:35,151 --> 00:34:36,501
What seemed to work?

568
00:34:36,501 --> 00:34:42,325
And the other thing to remember is,
I came up with the exact stats,

569
00:34:42,325 --> 00:34:47,317
but most people give up when
they're asking somebody for

570
00:34:47,317 --> 00:34:51,074
something after about two or three times.

571
00:34:51,074 --> 00:34:56,178
It tends to take at least seven tries
to get someone to reply to you.

572
00:34:56,178 --> 00:35:00,930
So, I would encourage you whether you're
trying to get a mentor, or trying to

573
00:35:00,930 --> 00:35:05,759
build a relationship with a hiring
manager, don't give up after three times.

574
00:35:05,759 --> 00:35:10,430
So you may go to them and someone said,
well, what's the question you can ask on

575
00:35:10,430 --> 00:35:13,318
LinkedIn to get someone
to accept your request?

576
00:35:13,318 --> 00:35:18,088
You may say something,
you need to be specific.

577
00:35:18,088 --> 00:35:21,496
Grant said, you got to do your homework,
you don't want to shotgun it.

578
00:35:21,496 --> 00:35:26,405
So you may say, Grant,
I've noticed that you went from

579
00:35:26,405 --> 00:35:30,280
home goods to being as
a software engineer.

580
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,160
I have massive respect for you,
I've been cheering you on,

581
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,860
and on Twitter too,
we've love to connect with you here.

582
00:35:39,860 --> 00:35:41,934
You're very likely to accept that.

583
00:35:41,934 --> 00:35:44,056
>> Yep.

584
00:35:44,056 --> 00:35:48,867
>> And so what you're doing is basically
doing some research on somebody and

585
00:35:48,867 --> 00:35:51,748
figuring out, what are they doing online?

586
00:35:51,748 --> 00:35:55,652
And how can you give them
a genuine compliment?

587
00:35:55,652 --> 00:35:58,339
It's very likely that
they'll accept that they.

588
00:35:58,339 --> 00:36:00,141
Say they don't, you can't pester them
again for a connection on LinkedIn.

589
00:36:00,141 --> 00:36:02,284
So then you need to go and
find them, are they on Twitter?

590
00:36:02,284 --> 00:36:03,410
Are they on Instagram?

591
00:36:03,410 --> 00:36:04,950
Do they have a website?

592
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:06,142
Are they in GitHub?

593
00:36:06,142 --> 00:36:10,453
And then you can ask a slightly
different question over there.

594
00:36:10,453 --> 00:36:13,417
So on Twitter,
you might say something like,

595
00:36:13,417 --> 00:36:17,455
I've been following on Twitter,
love your posts about this.

596
00:36:17,455 --> 00:36:19,662
And then eventually we'll say,
gosh, who is this person?

597
00:36:19,662 --> 00:36:22,316
They just seem so interested in me,
I guess I'll finally pay attention.

598
00:36:22,316 --> 00:36:23,450
>> Yep.

599
00:36:23,450 --> 00:36:26,124
>> And then,
you've got that first foot in the door.

600
00:36:28,566 --> 00:36:29,915
Okay, another question for you, Grant.

601
00:36:33,648 --> 00:36:35,387
How did you choose to format your resume?

602
00:36:35,387 --> 00:36:38,309
>> How did I choose to format my resume?

603
00:36:38,309 --> 00:36:40,169
So, I went through probably,

604
00:36:40,169 --> 00:36:43,899
three or four iterations of my
resume before I settled on one.

605
00:36:43,899 --> 00:36:48,988
It's about, I started with,
your always have to write it yourself.

606
00:36:48,988 --> 00:36:51,673
So you write which,

607
00:36:56,635 --> 00:37:01,235
But then my review I sent it to review,
I sent it to these recruiters for review.

608
00:37:01,235 --> 00:37:03,260
And sometimes they wouldn't tell me but
like the recruiters are like, hey,

609
00:37:03,260 --> 00:37:04,081
what do you think in my resume?

610
00:37:04,081 --> 00:37:09,174
And then focused on the things that
they give you, that's good advice,

611
00:37:09,174 --> 00:37:12,694
and focus on what you think
is what you wanna show.

612
00:37:12,694 --> 00:37:18,037
So with like the different
kinds of resumes out there,

613
00:37:18,037 --> 00:37:20,833
I also researched, right?

614
00:37:20,833 --> 00:37:23,786
So, Google, back resumes, and
see what are some good examples.

615
00:37:23,786 --> 00:37:27,205
It's fine to mimic things,
but we all do every day,

616
00:37:27,205 --> 00:37:32,039
we look up answers on Stack Overflow,
and copy that, and make it our own.

617
00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:35,189
Those resumes can be the same,
you don't have to be unique and original.

618
00:37:35,189 --> 00:37:38,064
You have to just be able to present
yourself in the best way, and

619
00:37:38,064 --> 00:37:39,053
find out the answer.

620
00:37:39,053 --> 00:37:43,860
So I would say, start with the base copy,
look what other people are doing.

621
00:37:43,860 --> 00:37:47,029
And get lots of advice,
polish it, polish it,

622
00:37:47,029 --> 00:37:51,403
polish it, because resumes is
the easiest way for someone to go.

623
00:37:51,403 --> 00:37:54,736
I'm not gonna hire this person because
they didn't take the time to do

624
00:37:54,736 --> 00:37:55,363
the resume.

625
00:37:55,363 --> 00:37:56,604
>> Yes, yeah, good call.

626
00:37:56,604 --> 00:38:01,376
So, I really liked what you said in
the main session where you said,

627
00:38:01,376 --> 00:38:06,430
something around proactivity, and
solving problems, and how it is.

628
00:38:06,430 --> 00:38:10,280
I've noticed that
the things that I look for

629
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,597
are almost extracurricular
projects that they're doing.

630
00:38:15,597 --> 00:38:20,339
So for instance,
I'm mentoring someone named Emmett,

631
00:38:20,339 --> 00:38:24,102
and he created a Slack group for
developers.

632
00:38:24,102 --> 00:38:29,311
And actually, that was the one thing
I saw on his resume that I thought.

633
00:38:29,311 --> 00:38:32,807
That shows productivity,
that shows organization,

634
00:38:32,807 --> 00:38:37,142
that shows a level of social intelligence,
that's interesting.

635
00:38:37,142 --> 00:38:42,487
And so, I think you can highlight
passion projects, especially when say,

636
00:38:42,487 --> 00:38:48,102
I built the things, I'm passionate
about it, I'm curating this community.

637
00:38:48,102 --> 00:38:51,649
It's very likely some will say, I want
this person or that person to work here.

638
00:38:51,649 --> 00:38:55,051
So that's one thing that's
not paid work you can put on.

639
00:38:55,051 --> 00:38:56,997
But I I do have to say, I'm pretty.

640
00:38:56,997 --> 00:39:03,157
When I see someone that just has
GitHub repo links it's a red flag,

641
00:39:03,157 --> 00:39:07,892
because you think there's
no real projects here.

642
00:39:07,892 --> 00:39:12,736
And that's why I think people need to
figure out how to get those small,

643
00:39:12,736 --> 00:39:16,869
big projects basically as
a freelancer to kinda bootstrap.

644
00:39:16,869 --> 00:39:18,535
So that when you click that URL,

645
00:39:18,535 --> 00:39:21,694
it's actually a live posted
project instead of just a repo.

646
00:39:21,694 --> 00:39:23,986
What do you think about that?

647
00:39:23,986 --> 00:39:28,588
>> I agree,
it's kinda showing the soft skills that

648
00:39:28,588 --> 00:39:33,529
people talk about,
that you work with other people.

649
00:39:33,529 --> 00:39:36,066
One of the things that drew
attention to people on my

650
00:39:36,066 --> 00:39:39,783
resume was actually my time as a Slack
Champion in the tech degree program.

651
00:39:39,783 --> 00:39:45,395
Everyone loved that, that I gave back and
did code reviews, and helped other people.

652
00:39:45,395 --> 00:39:47,549
Because honestly,
most of my time I'm here,

653
00:39:47,549 --> 00:39:49,495
I'm helping my other teammates at work.

654
00:39:49,495 --> 00:39:52,552
I'm doing their code reviews,
I'm giving them feedback.

655
00:39:52,552 --> 00:39:55,936
And being a Slack Champion I'll
develop those skills of,

656
00:39:55,936 --> 00:39:59,817
how do you communicate through text
in a way that is received well?

657
00:39:59,817 --> 00:40:01,248
And so those little projects, right?

658
00:40:01,248 --> 00:40:03,070
So it wasn't much my time.

659
00:40:03,070 --> 00:40:05,329
But it was something that stood out.

660
00:40:05,329 --> 00:40:10,305
Doing things that are extra or going above
and beyond or showing that you're more

661
00:40:10,305 --> 00:40:14,422
than just the programming,
you're a person with a personality.

662
00:40:14,422 --> 00:40:17,318
You can contribute to
the culture of the team,

663
00:40:17,318 --> 00:40:20,741
because programming is
something that can be taught.

664
00:40:20,741 --> 00:40:23,039
That teamwork, that care,

665
00:40:23,039 --> 00:40:27,646
that sense of being part of
the company is harder to find.

666
00:40:27,646 --> 00:40:29,878
And that's what you can show you
do with all the other things.

667
00:40:29,878 --> 00:40:31,310
>> Awesome advice.

668
00:40:31,310 --> 00:40:36,520
So what Grant's talking about is in
the tech degree, once you pass unit three

669
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,747
usually, then you're allowed to do
code reviews on projects 1, 2 and 3.

670
00:40:41,747 --> 00:40:45,207
And then you can continue to do that.

671
00:40:45,207 --> 00:40:50,367
And showing that you can code review and
that you put in

672
00:40:50,367 --> 00:40:57,032
the extra effort to do that is
a massive green flag, a positive flag.

673
00:40:57,032 --> 00:41:01,604
So if you happen to be going
through a tech degree, absolutely,

674
00:41:01,604 --> 00:41:05,600
grab the opportunity to do code review and
do a ton of it.

675
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,793
So that's one thing and then being
the other thing is being a slack champion.

676
00:41:08,793 --> 00:41:11,859
We basically,
promote people who work very hard and

677
00:41:11,859 --> 00:41:16,469
slack to say we wanna recognize you for
that and give you more responsibility.

678
00:41:16,469 --> 00:41:21,288
And Mike and Grant said that
instantly helps filter you above

679
00:41:21,288 --> 00:41:26,392
other people that are also new
developers but don't have that,

680
00:41:26,392 --> 00:41:30,761
so those extra effort projects
are a great thing to do.

681
00:41:30,761 --> 00:41:33,802
Okay, so let's get to some more questions.

682
00:41:33,802 --> 00:41:38,444
Thanks so much for dropping so
much knowledge, man, this is great.

683
00:41:38,444 --> 00:41:42,718
Okay, gosh, there's so many questions.

684
00:41:42,718 --> 00:41:45,057
I may have to do another
session at some point.

685
00:41:45,057 --> 00:41:48,608
I'm gonna go like some newer
questions that just happened.

686
00:41:48,608 --> 00:41:53,921
Edlund said, how do you deal with, quote,
but you're overqualified, end quote.

687
00:41:53,921 --> 00:41:57,828
Which is a question that comes up
a lot for career changers, but

688
00:41:57,828 --> 00:42:00,497
we're not overqualified as developers.

689
00:42:00,497 --> 00:42:03,255
How do you deal with that?

690
00:42:03,255 --> 00:42:08,265
>> Well, I even at so when I was a retail
store manager and had people apply,

691
00:42:08,265 --> 00:42:13,193
I had people who work entry level
positions who had master's degree and

692
00:42:13,193 --> 00:42:16,831
at one point,
I had someone who had a PhD in physics.

693
00:42:16,831 --> 00:42:21,114
[LAUGH] A lot of things and
if they're saying

694
00:42:21,114 --> 00:42:26,368
you're overqualified, there's [INAUDIBLE].

695
00:42:26,368 --> 00:42:31,055
It's not about the qualifications,
it's about desire.

696
00:42:31,055 --> 00:42:33,865
So if they think you're overqualified,
then

697
00:42:33,865 --> 00:42:38,848
show them that desire of why it's not my
qualifications that I want to work there.

698
00:42:38,848 --> 00:42:43,448
It's that what I can bring to
your company in your culture,

699
00:42:43,448 --> 00:42:46,862
in your teamwork and other things, right?

700
00:42:46,862 --> 00:42:50,059
So I don't think there's
ever an over qualifications,

701
00:42:50,059 --> 00:42:54,601
you sometimes you do go like why does this
person with a PhD want to work in retail?

702
00:42:54,601 --> 00:42:58,855
But you ask them,
you can even address that initially.

703
00:42:58,855 --> 00:43:02,566
Hey, I just want to talk about
I do have a PhD in physics, but

704
00:43:02,566 --> 00:43:04,991
I love retail, and I love customers.

705
00:43:04,991 --> 00:43:10,700
I need this experience or
[INAUDIBLE] address that?

706
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:14,273
What does that [INAUDIBLE] and
how you can support that and

707
00:43:14,273 --> 00:43:16,487
is it gonna distract you, right?

708
00:43:16,487 --> 00:43:22,740
So an initial interview or your cover
letter or whatever opportunity to have.

709
00:43:22,740 --> 00:43:24,257
>> Yeah, that's a good point.

710
00:43:24,257 --> 00:43:30,814
I'd also like to say sometimes that's
someone being a coward and not saying no.

711
00:43:30,814 --> 00:43:36,382
They're trying to give you a nice way
of saying they don't want to hire you,

712
00:43:36,382 --> 00:43:38,994
but they're not being honest why.

713
00:43:38,994 --> 00:43:44,023
So I think you can say,
can you tell me more about that?

714
00:43:44,023 --> 00:43:47,698
Why do you think I'm
overqualified to know more?

715
00:43:47,698 --> 00:43:52,981
And you may flash out that they're
just being biased and or even worse.

716
00:43:52,981 --> 00:43:55,854
Or you may find that there's
something that you didn't understand.

717
00:43:55,854 --> 00:43:59,658
You can say, yeah, well,
I know that, I'm 54 and

718
00:43:59,658 --> 00:44:04,550
I've worked all across the world and
it may seem like a step down to you that I

719
00:44:04,550 --> 00:44:08,140
want to be a junior software engineer,
but it's not.

720
00:44:08,140 --> 00:44:09,271
I enjoy creativity.

721
00:44:09,271 --> 00:44:12,836
I enjoy building things and I'm being
proactive about a career change and

722
00:44:12,836 --> 00:44:14,113
I'm excited about that.

723
00:44:14,113 --> 00:44:15,720
>> Yeah.

724
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:18,864
>> So that's a tough,
that's a good question.

725
00:44:18,864 --> 00:44:20,964
That's tough when it happens.

726
00:44:20,964 --> 00:44:22,753
A question from Caroline.

727
00:44:22,753 --> 00:44:29,771
How to find those companies that,
we talked about those a hundred companies,

728
00:44:29,771 --> 00:44:34,785
specifically working with
a text actor interested in?

729
00:44:34,785 --> 00:44:40,727
>> Most companies that I've researched,
usually kind of talk about the tech stack.

730
00:44:40,727 --> 00:44:44,844
And if they don't,
it's sometimes in the job posting.

731
00:44:44,844 --> 00:44:50,365
But I would say some of it like if it's
a very big company, I found that that

732
00:44:50,365 --> 00:44:55,548
it's likely that they have a version
of whatever you're studying.

733
00:44:55,548 --> 00:45:00,042
If it's a small startup, then they
usually announce it because they don't

734
00:45:00,042 --> 00:45:03,074
have the options to filter
through all that badly.

735
00:45:03,074 --> 00:45:07,146
>> Yep, but like what Graham said,
just look at their job postings and

736
00:45:07,146 --> 00:45:09,661
you'll start to see some common things.

737
00:45:09,661 --> 00:45:14,049
If they're full stack JavaScript, or
if they're a PHP shop or a Ruby shop,

738
00:45:14,049 --> 00:45:16,466
you'll start to see some similarities.

739
00:45:16,466 --> 00:45:19,323
But like Grant said,
if it's Google or Facebook or

740
00:45:19,323 --> 00:45:23,120
something, they're gonna have a need for
every kind of engineer.

741
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,378
But again, this is why you got to build
those relationships first, right?

742
00:45:27,378 --> 00:45:33,128
Once you identify, I think this company
is using the stack that I've learned and

743
00:45:33,128 --> 00:45:36,272
you go and build those relationships, so.

744
00:45:36,272 --> 00:45:37,405
Okay, next up.

745
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,781
All right,
some of these we've covered already.

746
00:45:45,781 --> 00:45:50,879
Okay, question from Ryan,
would you advice pursuing internship

747
00:45:50,879 --> 00:45:56,617
opportunities as an alternate to entry
level software developing roles?

748
00:45:56,617 --> 00:45:58,781
>> I would say those are great but

749
00:45:58,781 --> 00:46:03,033
make your intentions also
little known upfront, right?

750
00:46:03,033 --> 00:46:07,530
So if you have the opportunity to
do a short term internship, and

751
00:46:07,530 --> 00:46:12,801
they're gonna maybe hire you afterwards,
I think that's a great start.

752
00:46:12,801 --> 00:46:15,502
Even if it's maybe a summer thing,

753
00:46:15,502 --> 00:46:19,654
if you can afford to do that
also show someone did that.

754
00:46:19,654 --> 00:46:22,438
When I was speaking to the recruiters,
one point,

755
00:46:22,438 --> 00:46:24,721
I did apply to like an Amazon internship.

756
00:46:24,721 --> 00:46:28,118
But because of COVID, they weren't hiring.

757
00:46:28,118 --> 00:46:32,074
They said they might get back to me but
it's not a bad avenue,

758
00:46:32,074 --> 00:46:33,635
I would say, pursuit.

759
00:46:33,635 --> 00:46:38,370
But you also look at your means,
what is comfortable for you?

760
00:46:38,370 --> 00:46:43,569
Can you live off of an internship salary,
or do you need to find a different way?

761
00:46:43,569 --> 00:46:47,668
You worked what your current job,
continued supporting yourself.

762
00:46:47,668 --> 00:46:51,429
And then find different ways to build
that experience, maybe do part time,

763
00:46:51,429 --> 00:46:52,209
work that out.

764
00:46:52,209 --> 00:46:56,505
So it's a personal question, if you can't
do it, it's a great way to start, too.

765
00:46:56,505 --> 00:46:58,672
>> Yeah, I echo what Grant said.

766
00:46:58,672 --> 00:47:05,203
I mean, often, if you're privileged,
you can afford to do an internship.

767
00:47:05,203 --> 00:47:06,751
Yep, that's not fair, right?

768
00:47:06,751 --> 00:47:11,039
So, clearly if you, if you can say,
I can work for free for you,

769
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:13,673
that's gonna build a lot of goodwill.

770
00:47:13,673 --> 00:47:17,883
It's more likely you'll get hired but
that's just not possible for

771
00:47:17,883 --> 00:47:19,414
the majority of people.

772
00:47:19,414 --> 00:47:24,249
So, yeah, if you can get an internship and
you can afford to, great, but

773
00:47:24,249 --> 00:47:25,655
most people cannot.

774
00:47:25,655 --> 00:47:26,464
>> Yeah.
>> Also,

775
00:47:26,464 --> 00:47:31,432
be a little careful that they're not
just looking for someone to make coffee.

776
00:47:31,432 --> 00:47:33,713
You actually want to be writing code and

777
00:47:33,713 --> 00:47:36,412
being actually a part of
something to do that.

778
00:47:36,412 --> 00:47:39,257
>> Yeah, if it's free to make your own
demands of, hey, this is free, but

779
00:47:39,257 --> 00:47:40,622
this is what I need to get out of it.

780
00:47:40,622 --> 00:47:42,093
>> Yeah, I love that.

781
00:47:42,093 --> 00:47:46,988
Yeah, my time is not free so
this is all I got in return.

782
00:47:46,988 --> 00:47:51,540
Okay, so a question from Amir.

783
00:47:51,540 --> 00:47:57,703
What wait does Stack Overflow GitHub and
hacker rank portfolio?

784
00:47:57,703 --> 00:48:02,787
How much is that worth and
getting developer jobs?

785
00:48:05,727 --> 00:48:08,959
>> I don't really have a good answer.

786
00:48:08,959 --> 00:48:12,725
I would say anything that you can
show that you've done work or

787
00:48:12,725 --> 00:48:14,034
contributed helps.

788
00:48:14,034 --> 00:48:16,951
But if you're not comfortable,
I mean, if it's scary place,

789
00:48:16,951 --> 00:48:18,309
putting yourself out there.

790
00:48:18,309 --> 00:48:22,853
I know a lot of people even have a hard
time contributing to open source GitHub

791
00:48:22,853 --> 00:48:23,575
projects.

792
00:48:23,575 --> 00:48:27,090
So anything you do helps, and
if it's something that you can't do,

793
00:48:27,090 --> 00:48:29,344
then supplement that with something else.

794
00:48:29,344 --> 00:48:32,547
So it's a little personal issue.

795
00:48:32,547 --> 00:48:34,536
>> Agreed, I think as a junior engineer,

796
00:48:34,536 --> 00:48:38,170
you're just not gonna get a lot of
rank on those sites, and it's okay.

797
00:48:38,170 --> 00:48:40,772
You're not expected.

798
00:48:40,772 --> 00:48:44,294
It could be a good idea to go
on hacker and can just practice.

799
00:48:44,294 --> 00:48:45,102
>> Yeah.

800
00:48:45,102 --> 00:48:50,382
>> But I would say we don't look for
those things to house so.

801
00:48:50,382 --> 00:48:55,267
Okay, so it's interesting is there's
a theme that comes up over and

802
00:48:55,267 --> 00:48:57,977
over again which is around projects.

803
00:48:57,977 --> 00:49:01,466
This is a good one from Alexandra.

804
00:49:01,466 --> 00:49:04,775
I've been working at multiple
jobs at the same time,

805
00:49:04,775 --> 00:49:09,565
working as a server and doing freelance
internships and personal projects.

806
00:49:09,565 --> 00:49:14,054
Do I need to add on LinkedIn,
my server experience as a waiter or

807
00:49:14,054 --> 00:49:19,084
waitress or bring it up during
interviews or leave it out completely?

808
00:49:19,084 --> 00:49:24,075
Also, who do I need to
talk to a network with

809
00:49:24,075 --> 00:49:27,977
hiring managers HR, etcetera?

810
00:49:27,977 --> 00:49:30,976
>> So I would not leave that out.

811
00:49:30,976 --> 00:49:34,382
That is your past that talks
about what you've done.

812
00:49:34,382 --> 00:49:39,236
In my presentation, I highlighted, show
what you're using in that job that's gonna

813
00:49:39,236 --> 00:49:41,841
translate to what you're
going to do in tech.

814
00:49:41,841 --> 00:49:44,956
As a server,
you're constantly helping customers,

815
00:49:44,956 --> 00:49:49,642
bring out those experiences where you went
out of the way to make a customer happy.

816
00:49:49,642 --> 00:49:50,591
What does that show?

817
00:49:50,591 --> 00:49:52,960
Well, when I'm working
with my team members,

818
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,928
I have the personality to go out
of my way to make them happy.

819
00:49:55,928 --> 00:49:57,309
That's what you're showing there.

820
00:49:57,309 --> 00:49:59,390
You're working in a team and
you're going out your way.

821
00:49:59,390 --> 00:50:04,031
To make someone's life better, to make
someone's job easier, show that you saw

822
00:50:04,031 --> 00:50:08,471
some something as simple as Hey, I
noticed this customer was having trouble,

823
00:50:08,471 --> 00:50:13,063
even asked me for help, but they needed
this thing, so I even brought it to them.

824
00:50:13,063 --> 00:50:17,211
Find examples that you are being
proactive, you can find problems and

825
00:50:17,211 --> 00:50:20,248
solve them before they've
even been shown to you.

826
00:50:20,248 --> 00:50:25,129
Show that how you want to become promoted
if you wanted to, whatever you're doing in

827
00:50:25,129 --> 00:50:29,187
that to excel, those are great things
to highlight in your LinkedIn,

828
00:50:29,187 --> 00:50:33,974
your resume, things that show you got
the qualities that people are looking for.

829
00:50:33,974 --> 00:50:34,788
>> Great answer.

830
00:50:34,788 --> 00:50:35,910
>> Yeah.

831
00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:40,825
>> So obviously, how do you show that,
so do you list like I was a server

832
00:50:40,825 --> 00:50:45,829
at Red Robin from this day to this day,
then you add text after that and

833
00:50:45,829 --> 00:50:50,520
say, here's how I solved some
problems while I was doing that?

834
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,222
Or here's some of the things I did there
versus just listing the job and the dates,

835
00:50:54,222 --> 00:50:55,038
is that how they?

836
00:50:55,038 --> 00:50:57,820
>> Yeah, so
if you look at my retail resume,

837
00:50:57,820 --> 00:51:01,397
it's very different than
my programming resume, so

838
00:51:01,397 --> 00:51:06,976
I picked out the things that I felt like
would be great, that I'm a problem solver.

839
00:51:06,976 --> 00:51:11,007
So in the retail resume, I showed I
handle KPIs and I handled scheduling and

840
00:51:11,007 --> 00:51:14,399
all these things that I'm not
gonna be doing as a developer, so

841
00:51:14,399 --> 00:51:16,452
I don't need to put that on my resume.

842
00:51:16,452 --> 00:51:19,761
I did show that I helped grand
open the Hillsborough store, so

843
00:51:19,761 --> 00:51:23,327
I helped solve all these issues and
overcame like, teamworking,

844
00:51:23,327 --> 00:51:27,228
challenging and time task management,
which just translates to tech.

845
00:51:27,228 --> 00:51:32,223
So bring those things over,
talk about the things that are teamwork,

846
00:51:32,223 --> 00:51:35,526
time and task management, problem solving,

847
00:51:35,526 --> 00:51:41,213
what's called thinking outside of the box,
coming up with unique solutions.

848
00:51:41,213 --> 00:51:42,934
Those are all the things
that translate into tech, so

849
00:51:42,934 --> 00:51:44,131
bring those things over and listen.

850
00:51:44,131 --> 00:51:49,033
>> Yeah, what Grant is saying,
show your real experience but highlight

851
00:51:49,033 --> 00:51:54,702
the emotional intelligence that you've
demonstrated why [INAUDIBLE], right?

852
00:51:54,702 --> 00:51:59,051
Don't just list server but say
specifically how you actually solve new

853
00:51:59,051 --> 00:52:02,104
problems for that employer-
>> Yeah.

854
00:52:02,104 --> 00:52:06,983
>> While you're there, it shows a pattern,
right, and that's why doing

855
00:52:06,983 --> 00:52:11,464
a ton of code reviews in your tech
degree or being a Slack champion,

856
00:52:11,464 --> 00:52:15,783
again shows that every employer
what they really are looking for

857
00:52:15,783 --> 00:52:19,473
is someone who practically
solves problems, right?

858
00:52:19,473 --> 00:52:22,833
So if you're demonstrating that behavior,
even if you're a server,

859
00:52:22,833 --> 00:52:26,474
they're gonna say, my gosh, well,
imagine what he'll do as an engineer

860
00:52:26,474 --> 00:52:27,293
>> Yeah.

861
00:52:27,293 --> 00:52:31,640
>> So, another big question from Rose,
so let's say you're ready to go to

862
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:36,063
the interview and this is probably
gonna be a resume during the pandemic,

863
00:52:36,063 --> 00:52:38,944
do people still wear
suits to tech interviews?

864
00:52:38,944 --> 00:52:44,091
No, tell me what you're supposed
to wear or how you're supposed

865
00:52:44,091 --> 00:52:48,973
to present yourself physically
to the first Zoom interview.

866
00:52:48,973 --> 00:52:53,367
>> So I would actually research
the company, so I would look at,

867
00:52:53,367 --> 00:52:57,772
go through a website,
I would dig in through all their links.

868
00:52:57,772 --> 00:53:01,615
I would even like read through like
some of the contract pages and terms or

869
00:53:01,615 --> 00:53:04,200
conditions because they
have different tips and

870
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,611
you can assert what kind
of company they are.

871
00:53:06,611 --> 00:53:09,366
And then,
I was still say dress to step up, but

872
00:53:09,366 --> 00:53:13,967
I don't think unless the company looks
like they're a suit and tie company,

873
00:53:13,967 --> 00:53:17,046
don't wear a suit, but
you wanna be dressed nice.

874
00:53:17,046 --> 00:53:18,228
You wanna be clean,

875
00:53:18,228 --> 00:53:21,982
you wanted to be professional
in a sense that you're hygienic,

876
00:53:21,982 --> 00:53:27,071
you've got nice clothes on, you wanna be
there, you're presenting your best self.

877
00:53:27,071 --> 00:53:31,907
The other side effect to that though,
is when you dress nice,

878
00:53:31,907 --> 00:53:37,499
you subconsciously feel nice and
that is presented in your interview.

879
00:53:37,499 --> 00:53:41,726
So if you look like you feel good, you're
gonna be talking much more confident.

880
00:53:41,726 --> 00:53:42,773
>> Yeah.

881
00:53:42,773 --> 00:53:45,050
>> And you're gonna be having
much better interview, so

882
00:53:45,050 --> 00:53:46,395
take that into account as well.

883
00:53:46,395 --> 00:53:49,310
>> Agreed, now, Grant and I are white men,

884
00:53:49,310 --> 00:53:54,222
like what looks professional to us
is related to white culture, and so

885
00:53:54,222 --> 00:53:58,970
we're not saying it's important
to be white in your interview or,

886
00:53:58,970 --> 00:54:02,912
if say if you're Black,
to not wear your hair natural.

887
00:54:02,912 --> 00:54:07,752
What we're saying is, and what Grant is
saying is, come dressed in something that

888
00:54:07,752 --> 00:54:11,987
makes you feel confident, something
that you you feel good at, right?

889
00:54:11,987 --> 00:54:16,078
That's thing one,
number two is if you think,

890
00:54:16,078 --> 00:54:20,269
I have tattoos, right, so
a bunch of tattoos and

891
00:54:20,269 --> 00:54:25,487
if I'm not sure how someone's
gonna feel about my tattoos,

892
00:54:25,487 --> 00:54:30,394
I tend to cover them up just
in that first interaction, so

893
00:54:30,394 --> 00:54:34,620
I don't give them excuse
to weed me out somehow.

894
00:54:34,620 --> 00:54:39,235
And then once I build a relationship, then
I'll be more transparent about who I am,

895
00:54:39,235 --> 00:54:43,134
there may be things about your body
that you feel the same way, you may or

896
00:54:43,134 --> 00:54:44,054
may not do that.

897
00:54:44,054 --> 00:54:46,038
But again, it's about confidence,

898
00:54:46,038 --> 00:54:49,944
if you feel confident with your tattoos,
or your hair or the way you dress,

899
00:54:49,944 --> 00:54:53,672
that's more important than worrying
about if you'll fit in exactly.

900
00:54:53,672 --> 00:54:59,238
And also, if you're gonna be at
a company where they judge you for

901
00:54:59,238 --> 00:55:04,099
being Black and having natural hair or
for your tattoos,

902
00:55:04,099 --> 00:55:08,068
then maybe it's not a good
place to be anyway.

903
00:55:08,068 --> 00:55:08,844
>> Yeah.

904
00:55:08,844 --> 00:55:11,598
>> But I know sometimes when
you need that first job,

905
00:55:11,598 --> 00:55:16,122
sometimes, you just need to get in, so
there's a hard balance there to walk, but

906
00:55:16,122 --> 00:55:20,016
I love Grant's advice of just being
comfortable, being confident.

907
00:55:20,016 --> 00:55:27,344
We're almost gonna be out of time,
I'm sure to grab a couple more questions.

908
00:55:30,776 --> 00:55:31,542
All right.

909
00:55:34,479 --> 00:55:39,341
How do you identify red flags,
such as too much work for

910
00:55:39,341 --> 00:55:43,478
too little pay or
red flags in a job interview?

911
00:55:43,478 --> 00:55:46,096
It seems hard to know when
you're being taken advantage of.

912
00:55:48,184 --> 00:55:52,773
>> So red flags in a job interview,
now going through all these interviews,

913
00:55:52,773 --> 00:55:57,213
sometimes, you might have to go with
your gut because what your gut is,

914
00:55:57,213 --> 00:56:01,504
is basically your subconscious
taking all your past experiences and

915
00:56:01,504 --> 00:56:06,328
telling you hey, something's not right
here, I just don't know what yet.

916
00:56:06,328 --> 00:56:10,580
The other part to that is look at
what their requirements are and

917
00:56:10,580 --> 00:56:13,240
don't let them take advantage of you.

918
00:56:13,240 --> 00:56:17,217
If you've done your research,
the market rates for salary,

919
00:56:17,217 --> 00:56:19,205
you know what the demands are,

920
00:56:19,205 --> 00:56:24,496
then you know you've got your knowledge
as someone who's got your back, right?

921
00:56:24,496 --> 00:56:26,525
That's what you have,
that's your power, and

922
00:56:26,525 --> 00:56:28,664
then you know if they're
taking advantage of you.

923
00:56:28,664 --> 00:56:33,271
You have to be an advocate for
yourselves and you have to stand up and

924
00:56:33,271 --> 00:56:37,470
fight for what is yours,
you know it's difficult process,

925
00:56:37,470 --> 00:56:40,452
it's hard to have that conflict, right?

926
00:56:40,452 --> 00:56:42,930
So any kind of negotiation
is basically conflict, so

927
00:56:42,930 --> 00:56:47,008
when you're in the interview and you're
negotiating, you're trying to find terms,

928
00:56:47,008 --> 00:56:50,441
it's a skill to have, but it's also
something that needs to be learned.

929
00:56:50,441 --> 00:56:55,151
If you feel like the company themselves
is trying to take advantage of you,

930
00:56:55,151 --> 00:56:59,881
then you might need to just keep going
because that's not the right place.

931
00:56:59,881 --> 00:57:03,522
Even if you get the job at a disadvantage,
you're not gonna be happy and

932
00:57:03,522 --> 00:57:06,027
it's not gonna be what you want or
what you need.

933
00:57:06,027 --> 00:57:10,347
>> Yeah, I agree with that, it's a hard
thing to walk when you're looking for

934
00:57:10,347 --> 00:57:12,657
that first job and you just wanna get in.

935
00:57:12,657 --> 00:57:16,923
Let's talk about salaries for a little
bit, so if you don't have a computer

936
00:57:16,923 --> 00:57:21,459
science degree and you don't have any
chunky paid experience, what do you think

937
00:57:21,459 --> 00:57:25,754
people should be looking for, for
that first salary as a junior developer?

938
00:57:25,754 --> 00:57:28,444
And I know it varies if you're
in San Francisco and whatnot-

939
00:57:28,444 --> 00:57:29,495
>> Yeah.

940
00:57:29,495 --> 00:57:30,820
>> But talk me through that a little bit.

941
00:57:30,820 --> 00:57:36,073
>> So knowledge is valuable, don't
undervalue yourself, that being said,

942
00:57:36,073 --> 00:57:40,927
experience is also valuable, but
there isn't like a starting rate.

943
00:57:40,927 --> 00:57:45,876
So depending on the market in the city, I
would say anywhere that makes you less so

944
00:57:45,876 --> 00:57:51,098
40 to 60,000, depending on the city, is a
good starting rate for a junior engineer.

945
00:57:51,098 --> 00:57:55,916
If you, and I live in Portland, so it
was a little higher because it's hard to

946
00:57:55,916 --> 00:57:59,641
pay for stuff here, but
in smaller cities, it's easier.

947
00:57:59,641 --> 00:58:03,270
And what's even better if you work remote
and you live in a small city or work for

948
00:58:03,270 --> 00:58:06,845
a company in big city, they might even
pay more because you go, hey, all your

949
00:58:06,845 --> 00:58:10,662
employees are remote, why are you paying
less because I live in a different city?

950
00:58:10,662 --> 00:58:11,306
>> Yes.

951
00:58:11,306 --> 00:58:13,221
>> I needed the pay to be the same.

952
00:58:13,221 --> 00:58:17,620
>> We pretty consistently
place people between 60 and

953
00:58:17,620 --> 00:58:22,418
65K in our apprenticeship
program across the country.

954
00:58:22,418 --> 00:58:25,763
Again, it will vary, but
the most important thing for

955
00:58:25,763 --> 00:58:30,420
everybody to realize is that once you
have that true paid job on your resume,

956
00:58:30,420 --> 00:58:32,702
then the sky's your limit, right?

957
00:58:32,702 --> 00:58:33,413
>> Yeah.

958
00:58:33,413 --> 00:58:37,424
>> Then you can be jumping
after that pretty quick, so

959
00:58:37,424 --> 00:58:43,210
I would say if you're paid,
like Grant said, somewhere between 40 and

960
00:58:43,210 --> 00:58:47,623
65 for that first role,
it's a good foot in the door.

961
00:58:47,623 --> 00:58:51,349
And then you should be looking for raises
after that, is that same for front end and

962
00:58:51,349 --> 00:58:51,901
back ends?

963
00:58:51,901 --> 00:58:57,870
They don't vary, I mean, but yes, roughly.

964
00:58:57,870 --> 00:58:58,843
>> Yeah.

965
00:58:58,843 --> 00:59:03,785
>> And again, most of the high paying
jobs, high growth jobs are in back end, so

966
00:59:03,785 --> 00:59:07,592
I think you should be thinking
about full stack in general,

967
00:59:07,592 --> 00:59:10,197
front end is a great way to start though.

968
00:59:10,197 --> 00:59:15,719
So okay, we are almost out of time,
Grant, this has been amazing for

969
00:59:15,719 --> 00:59:22,408
you just dropping all your knowledge,
all of your experience, thank you so much.

970
00:59:22,408 --> 00:59:25,825
>> I appreciate it, thank you for
giving me the opportunity, it's been so

971
00:59:25,825 --> 00:59:28,022
much fun and I love sharing,
I love teaching.

972
00:59:28,022 --> 00:59:31,071
I did that as a retail manager,
and this has been amazing for

973
00:59:31,071 --> 00:59:34,006
me to be able to do that here,
it's just been wonderful.

974
00:59:34,006 --> 00:59:38,891
>> So there's a massive demands for
another session and I'm just wondering

975
00:59:38,891 --> 00:59:43,855
how about, why don't we consider this,
so everyone that's listening,

976
00:59:43,855 --> 00:59:48,424
if you go into Slack, so
we've created Treehouse Festivals Slack,

977
00:59:48,424 --> 00:59:52,394
we'll post the links everywhere,
so you can get in there.

978
00:59:52,394 --> 00:59:57,285
And there is a channel
in there that I created,

979
00:59:57,285 --> 01:00:01,299
it's called Getting Your First Job,

980
01:00:01,299 --> 01:00:06,075
so please go in there and
ask more questions.

981
01:00:06,075 --> 01:00:12,126
And Grant, you're busy, you have a job so
you don't have to do this,

982
01:00:12,126 --> 01:00:17,882
but if you feel like being in there,
I think then I'll be in there.

983
01:00:17,882 --> 01:00:21,999
And if there's just so many questions,
then theoretically, I can chit chat to

984
01:00:21,999 --> 01:00:25,932
Grant about doing another kind of
off-the-cuff session maybe tomorrow or

985
01:00:25,932 --> 01:00:27,604
Friday or something like that.

986
01:00:27,604 --> 01:00:31,460
But I'm not gonna put you on the spot,
Grant, say yes or no, but maybe if you

987
01:00:31,460 --> 01:00:34,980
could message me later and let me
know if you'd be willing to do that.

988
01:00:34,980 --> 01:00:39,787
But regardless, if you're watching this,
please go into that Slack channel and

989
01:00:39,787 --> 01:00:44,597
post more questions, I know that this is
a very scary part of switching into tech,

990
01:00:44,597 --> 01:00:46,705
and we wanna be here to support you.

991
01:00:46,705 --> 01:00:51,352
So with that, thanks again, Grant,
congrats on all your hard work and

992
01:00:51,352 --> 01:00:54,762
thank you for
giving back by sharing the knowledge,

993
01:00:54,762 --> 01:00:58,499
I really appreciate it, and
I'll keep cheering you on.

994
01:00:58,499 --> 01:01:00,056
>> Thank you, Ryan, thank you, guys.

995
01:01:00,056 --> 01:01:00,898
>> Take care, see you, bye.

996
01:01:00,898 --> 01:01:01,530
>> Bye-bye.