1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,101 [MUSIC] 2 00:00:04,101 --> 00:00:06,053 Hello Hilary. 3 00:00:06,053 --> 00:00:07,033 >> Hello. 4 00:00:07,033 --> 00:00:07,831 >> Hey Ryan here. 5 00:00:07,831 --> 00:00:09,390 Nice to see you. 6 00:00:09,390 --> 00:00:11,770 Welcome everyone to our next session. 7 00:00:11,770 --> 00:00:13,190 My name is Ryan. 8 00:00:13,190 --> 00:00:18,146 I'm the cofounder and CEO of Treehouse and it's an honor to have all of you here. 9 00:00:18,146 --> 00:00:20,029 We have an awesome speaker. 10 00:00:20,029 --> 00:00:24,928 Hilary Stohs-Krause is currently based in Madison, Wisconsin where she is 11 00:00:24,928 --> 00:00:29,560 co-owner and software developer at Ten Forward Consulting. 12 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,193 She came to tech by way of a childhood website building, 13 00:00:33,193 --> 00:00:37,383 a Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan site to be exact which is awesome. 14 00:00:37,383 --> 00:00:42,029 [LAUGH] She volunteers regularly with several tech and community organization 15 00:00:42,029 --> 00:00:47,392 and she co-owns Madison Women in Tech, a local group with more than 2,000 members. 16 00:00:47,392 --> 00:00:50,040 Welcome Hilary, great to have you. 17 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:50,870 >> Yeah great to be here. 18 00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:57,080 As I said I'm Hilary and I'm really excited to talk to everyone today. 19 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,160 So let's go ahead and get started. 20 00:01:03,820 --> 00:01:07,750 So I'm gonna talk about the secret super powers of non-CS techies. 21 00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:12,980 First, if anyone wants to follow along, the sides are available here. 22 00:01:12,980 --> 00:01:16,090 I know sometimes it's easier for folks to be able to focus and pay attention. 23 00:01:16,090 --> 00:01:18,003 So I'll leave that up for just a second so 24 00:01:18,003 --> 00:01:20,548 that people can access that if they're interested. 25 00:01:27,073 --> 00:01:31,073 [LAUGH] not right now. 26 00:01:33,540 --> 00:01:34,570 I said persistent, didn't I? 27 00:01:36,410 --> 00:01:39,488 All right, so a quick little bit about me before we get started, 28 00:01:39,488 --> 00:01:42,000 kind of why am I giving this talk? 29 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,722 So co-owner and full stack developer at Ten Forward Consulting in Madison, 30 00:01:45,722 --> 00:01:46,360 Wisconsin. 31 00:01:48,050 --> 00:01:49,050 I tweet a lot. 32 00:01:49,050 --> 00:01:51,980 If anyone's on Twitter, If you're not on Twitter, I actually highly recommend it. 33 00:01:51,980 --> 00:01:56,232 It's a great way to connect to get answers to your questions about tech, 34 00:01:56,232 --> 00:02:00,920 about finding a job or anything like that, it can be a really helpful resource. 35 00:02:02,100 --> 00:02:04,250 And just a fun fact about me. 36 00:02:04,250 --> 00:02:05,720 I'm an identical twin. 37 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,947 And when my twin sister and I were camping with friends once, 38 00:02:10,947 --> 00:02:17,111 it came out that we were having a fight while both asleep sleep talking. 39 00:02:17,111 --> 00:02:23,054 So All right, as you might have guessed from the title of this talk, 40 00:02:23,054 --> 00:02:26,100 I don't have a computer science degree. 41 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,330 I have had a lot of non-tech jobs though. 42 00:02:30,570 --> 00:02:36,257 For example, I have been a bartender, I've been a radio reporter, 43 00:02:36,257 --> 00:02:43,050 a kite repair which is a real job, and a movie theater popcorn connoisseur. 44 00:02:43,050 --> 00:02:47,258 So you might be thinking none of those jobs have anything to do with my current 45 00:02:47,258 --> 00:02:47,800 career. 46 00:02:49,570 --> 00:02:51,374 So why did I switch? 47 00:02:51,374 --> 00:02:53,630 One, better wages, right? 48 00:02:53,630 --> 00:02:57,427 I think a lot of folks who are taking Treehouse courses who are interested in 49 00:02:57,427 --> 00:02:59,476 maybe moving into to the tech industry, 50 00:02:59,476 --> 00:03:02,990 I know that it pays really well compared to a lot of other industries. 51 00:03:04,330 --> 00:03:06,380 Flexibility is a big part of it. 52 00:03:06,380 --> 00:03:10,850 So I didn't want to always have to work Friday and Saturday nights. 53 00:03:10,850 --> 00:03:14,730 I didn't always wanna have to work 9 to 5 either, right? 54 00:03:14,730 --> 00:03:18,480 I wanted to have some more flexibility with how I structured my day. 55 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,000 And then the fact that it's an in-demand industry, and this is really the big one. 56 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,912 Right, a lot of jobs that I worked at before especially journalism which was 57 00:03:25,912 --> 00:03:28,477 the most recent job I had before moving into tech, 58 00:03:28,477 --> 00:03:32,530 it was just really hard to find a job and I wanted a career that felt more stable. 59 00:03:34,820 --> 00:03:38,650 And tech needs people like me, people like anyone who's watching right now who 60 00:03:38,650 --> 00:03:41,410 doesn't have a computer science degree, they need us. 61 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,753 There was an estimated 918,000 unfilled tech jobs in 62 00:03:47,753 --> 00:03:50,410 2019 just in the United States. 63 00:03:51,940 --> 00:03:53,480 That's a lot of jobs. 64 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,395 There were more unfilled tech jobs last year than 65 00:03:57,395 --> 00:04:02,081 the total number of medical doctors in the United States. 66 00:04:02,081 --> 00:04:06,773 So according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are 752,400 physicians 67 00:04:06,773 --> 00:04:11,290 and surgeons in the United States and there were 918,000 unfilled tech jobs. 68 00:04:14,660 --> 00:04:19,370 So this kinda shows part of the reason that there are so many unfilled jobs. 69 00:04:19,370 --> 00:04:24,069 If we look at the side, we can see that while liberal art, sciences, humanities, 70 00:04:24,069 --> 00:04:27,511 there has been a growth in the number of associates degrees. 71 00:04:27,511 --> 00:04:29,523 And again this is using us data, 72 00:04:29,523 --> 00:04:34,067 we can see that computer science which is the blue line towards the bottom 73 00:04:34,067 --> 00:04:37,585 actually took a dip and kind of came back up a little bit. 74 00:04:37,585 --> 00:04:40,217 And is starting to sort of level out again but 75 00:04:40,217 --> 00:04:43,760 it's really in the same place it was 20 years ago. 76 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,156 So we are not having enough computer science 77 00:04:47,156 --> 00:04:50,560 degree graduates to fill the needs in tech. 78 00:04:53,350 --> 00:04:54,716 This is reflected, right? 79 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:58,151 This is the level of optimism for finding skilled tech worker. 80 00:04:58,151 --> 00:05:02,180 It is pretty abysmal cuz there is just not enough people. 81 00:05:02,180 --> 00:05:06,090 So even if we wanted to, we could only hire computer science grads anyway. 82 00:05:07,090 --> 00:05:10,175 And really I'm here to argue that you wouldn't want to. 83 00:05:10,175 --> 00:05:14,536 So okay, this obviously leads to the question who do we hire instead if we're 84 00:05:14,536 --> 00:05:18,630 not gonna hire computer science grads to be programmers, for example, 85 00:05:18,630 --> 00:05:19,990 who do we hire instead? 86 00:05:21,850 --> 00:05:23,985 Bootcamp grad self-taught coders, 87 00:05:23,985 --> 00:05:27,053 people who came to code through untraditional means, 88 00:05:27,053 --> 00:05:31,466 although I would argue it's starting to become one of the traditional means. 89 00:05:31,466 --> 00:05:36,396 So this is a number of Bootcamp grads in the US and Canada last year 23,000. 90 00:05:36,396 --> 00:05:40,106 So you'll notice that it's still quite a bit lower than the number of unfilled tech 91 00:05:40,106 --> 00:05:43,180 jobs which means there's lots of opportunities to go around still. 92 00:05:43,180 --> 00:05:47,628 So this is the growth over the last seven years, again, 93 00:05:47,628 --> 00:05:53,224 looking at US and Canada data cuz that's what I had the most access to. 94 00:05:53,224 --> 00:05:56,840 958% growth in Bootcamp grads, that is massive. 95 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,515 And this isn't just like, there was a huge boost at the beginning and 96 00:06:01,515 --> 00:06:02,830 now it's kind of petered out. 97 00:06:02,830 --> 00:06:04,599 This was from 2018 to 2019, 98 00:06:04,599 --> 00:06:08,600 There was still a 49% growth in the number of Bootcamp grads in the US and Canada. 99 00:06:10,820 --> 00:06:15,699 Okay, so if anyone watching is maybe in a hiring position or 100 00:06:15,699 --> 00:06:18,930 I know that imposter syndrome is real. 101 00:06:18,930 --> 00:06:22,215 So you might think well, okay, if I get a Bootcamp degree or 102 00:06:22,215 --> 00:06:26,292 if I wanna hire someone who has a Bootcamp certification, what have you, 103 00:06:26,292 --> 00:06:28,756 are they even qualified to do the work? 104 00:06:28,756 --> 00:06:33,362 Yeah, I mean 84% of employers say bootcampers are as or 105 00:06:33,362 --> 00:06:38,070 more prepared than people with computer science degrees. 106 00:06:38,070 --> 00:06:40,560 That's sort of a survey from the job listing site Indeed. 107 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,900 So let's take a look for a second and the average bootcamp grad. 108 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:48,320 Who are we even talking about when we talk about these folks? 109 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,980 So the average bootcamp grad is about 31 years old. 110 00:06:51,980 --> 00:06:54,770 Again, this is based on US and Canadian data. 111 00:06:54,770 --> 00:06:58,520 They have six years work experience, but none of it has been in coding. 112 00:07:00,110 --> 00:07:04,929 And a lot of them do have a Bachelor of arts if they have a degree at all. 113 00:07:04,929 --> 00:07:09,971 And so when I went through my bootcamp, I believe I was 29 or 30. 114 00:07:09,971 --> 00:07:15,810 I had about six years of work experience and none of it was doing coding. 115 00:07:15,810 --> 00:07:17,630 And I had a Bachelor of arts, so 116 00:07:17,630 --> 00:07:20,780 reading these statistics made me feel pretty basic. 117 00:07:22,515 --> 00:07:26,512 So one thing I want to make clear kind of towards the beginning of this talk is that 118 00:07:26,512 --> 00:07:30,655 a bootcamp experience is not equivalent to a computer science degree, right? 119 00:07:30,655 --> 00:07:32,915 They teach very different skills. 120 00:07:32,915 --> 00:07:40,445 They're structured very differently and so it's not like a one to one kind of ratio. 121 00:07:42,420 --> 00:07:47,322 That being said, there are a lot of other skills that Bootcamp grads 122 00:07:47,322 --> 00:07:51,000 can bring to a project or a team or a company. 123 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,031 And I'm gonna use examples of Bootcamp grads who are currently working 124 00:07:55,031 --> 00:07:58,940 in the tech industry as examples to kind of illustrate these skills. 125 00:07:58,940 --> 00:08:03,660 So we're gonna explore how those sort of common Bootcamp attributes that we 126 00:08:03,660 --> 00:08:04,404 looked at. 127 00:08:04,404 --> 00:08:08,041 And I would think that folks who are self taught the demographics 128 00:08:08,041 --> 00:08:09,733 are gonna be fairly similar. 129 00:08:09,733 --> 00:08:14,781 We're gonna look at how those common attributes so a lot of times folks have 130 00:08:14,781 --> 00:08:20,410 a liberal arts degree and or they have customer service or retail experience. 131 00:08:20,410 --> 00:08:23,615 We're gonna look at how those experiences benefit the companies who then 132 00:08:23,615 --> 00:08:24,450 go on to hire them. 133 00:08:26,270 --> 00:08:29,840 So first thing I want to talk about is the value of perspective. 134 00:08:32,330 --> 00:08:33,770 So this is Alexandra. 135 00:08:33,770 --> 00:08:35,986 She's a web application developer, a former journalist, 136 00:08:35,986 --> 00:08:38,690 studied political science, gender studies and religion. 137 00:08:38,690 --> 00:08:41,660 So, again, pretty average Bootcamp grad. 138 00:08:42,690 --> 00:08:47,453 And she talks about the value of the person who is doing the programming, not 139 00:08:47,453 --> 00:08:52,218 just a person to fill a chair, not someone who could be replaced as anyone but 140 00:08:52,218 --> 00:08:56,410 who you are impacts your ability to do your job well. 141 00:08:56,410 --> 00:08:58,150 And our experience matters, right? 142 00:08:58,150 --> 00:09:01,228 So if we look at Alex's background with journalism. 143 00:09:01,228 --> 00:09:05,670 So being able to identify problems and solutions, having access to different 144 00:09:05,670 --> 00:09:09,844 types of resources, understanding the needs of distinct communities, 145 00:09:09,844 --> 00:09:13,360 those are really invaluable to produce quality journalism. 146 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,950 And likewise, liberal arts, right? 147 00:09:15,950 --> 00:09:17,303 Again, teach you some of those same skills. 148 00:09:17,303 --> 00:09:19,548 So you're exposed to a wide variety of cultures and 149 00:09:19,548 --> 00:09:21,120 viewpoints that shape who you are. 150 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,880 You're taught critical thinking skills, creative approaches to problem solving. 151 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,907 And then when it comes to tech, these skills even though they 152 00:09:30,907 --> 00:09:37,010 have nothing to do with methods or functions really have an impact. 153 00:09:37,010 --> 00:09:40,407 So I don't know if folks are familiar with the phrase we are not our users. 154 00:09:40,407 --> 00:09:43,635 I do primarily Ruby and Rails as my backend programming language. 155 00:09:43,635 --> 00:09:46,700 In the Ruby community, we talk about this idea a lot. 156 00:09:46,700 --> 00:09:48,540 We are not our users. 157 00:09:48,540 --> 00:09:51,288 So when we're building products, 158 00:09:51,288 --> 00:09:55,690 we have to remember that it's not just about us, right? 159 00:09:55,690 --> 00:09:58,930 It's about a lot of people that we've never met and may never meet, but 160 00:09:58,930 --> 00:10:02,500 we have to make sure that we are doing our best to take their needs into account. 161 00:10:04,024 --> 00:10:07,260 Building solutions that work for everyone, again, that don't just work for us. 162 00:10:07,260 --> 00:10:11,291 And we've seen examples over and over of people building solutions for 163 00:10:11,291 --> 00:10:15,054 themselves basing the solution on what they need specifically and 164 00:10:15,054 --> 00:10:18,760 finding out that it has horrible consequences for other people. 165 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,663 So facial recognition software is a big one, right? 166 00:10:23,663 --> 00:10:28,280 And the different way that it treats white faces versus brown faces. 167 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:29,370 That's just one example of many. 168 00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:33,400 Having a fresh perspective on options, right? 169 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:38,087 So doing something the way we've always done it is not gonna work in tech, right? 170 00:10:38,087 --> 00:10:41,970 Tech is about finding new solutions that actually benefit all. 171 00:10:43,490 --> 00:10:46,380 And so if you're coming from a background where you've already been in this 172 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:49,510 mindset and where you're already thinking differently, that's a huge asset. 173 00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:53,380 Next thing I wanna talk about is everything is a draft. 174 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:56,850 So Cheryl actually works with me at 10 forward. 175 00:10:56,850 --> 00:10:59,757 And when I talked to her for this presentation, 176 00:10:59,757 --> 00:11:03,828 she talked about how her experience studying Chinese language and 177 00:11:03,828 --> 00:11:09,560 literature in school forced her to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. 178 00:11:09,560 --> 00:11:14,762 And anyone who's done any kind of tree horse course, I'm sure you've had moments 179 00:11:14,762 --> 00:11:19,683 where you're really frustrated and you don't understand what's going on. 180 00:11:19,683 --> 00:11:22,010 And that's gonna continue, right? 181 00:11:22,010 --> 00:11:26,174 I mean, working in tech is all about growth and learning and it's exciting, and 182 00:11:26,174 --> 00:11:28,270 it's fun, but sometimes it's awful. 183 00:11:28,270 --> 00:11:33,152 And so really being able to come in already handling 184 00:11:33,152 --> 00:11:38,210 that kind of challenge is really beneficial. 185 00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:41,246 So we're gonna talk a little bit about refactoring and 186 00:11:41,246 --> 00:11:44,354 how that applies in other careers and then also in tech. 187 00:11:44,354 --> 00:11:47,884 So in liberal arts, you write a ton of papers, and 188 00:11:47,884 --> 00:11:51,510 it's basically a constant state of refactoring. 189 00:11:53,710 --> 00:11:56,050 Same thing for service sector, right? 190 00:11:56,050 --> 00:12:00,910 So maybe you're a server and you have a table of seven. 191 00:12:00,910 --> 00:12:02,990 And you're under the special but someone already ordered it. 192 00:12:02,990 --> 00:12:05,310 You didn't know you're out a specialty went to the kitchen to put the order in. 193 00:12:05,310 --> 00:12:08,150 So you have to go back, figure out what they want instead. 194 00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:11,464 And then someone's food comes out and it's slightly overcooked and they wanna replace 195 00:12:11,464 --> 00:12:14,810 it, they wanna talk to managers, or something else needs to happen. 196 00:12:14,810 --> 00:12:16,941 Then the kids spit their soda all over the table and 197 00:12:16,941 --> 00:12:18,520 then the restaurant starts on fire. 198 00:12:19,630 --> 00:12:22,230 This is not a true story, at least not all of these at once. 199 00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:27,072 But the idea is that working service, working in retail, any kind of job like 200 00:12:27,072 --> 00:12:31,470 that, you're constantly having to refactor in the sense of, okay, 201 00:12:31,470 --> 00:12:34,750 something new happened, how do I adjust? 202 00:12:34,750 --> 00:12:38,460 Something has change or not used to be, how can I adapt to that? 203 00:12:38,460 --> 00:12:42,861 It's really like working in service is essentially constantly refactoring, 204 00:12:42,861 --> 00:12:45,760 adapting to things that are happening in real time. 205 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,630 And then in tech, there's obviously a lot of refactoring. 206 00:12:49,630 --> 00:12:54,884 So I went and I looked at a couple of our GitHub repositories, 207 00:12:54,884 --> 00:12:59,320 and I looked at my total contribution statistics. 208 00:13:00,340 --> 00:13:04,032 And so there's the code that I added in green and 209 00:13:04,032 --> 00:13:06,814 the code that I've removed in red. 210 00:13:06,814 --> 00:13:09,814 And so we can see yes, I've added more code than I took away but 211 00:13:09,814 --> 00:13:11,160 you take away a lot of code. 212 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,460 There's a lot of refactoring when you're in check. 213 00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:16,660 So I've just got some various examples of doing this. 214 00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:22,008 And then my favorite one, which I don't even know what project this was, and 215 00:13:22,008 --> 00:13:23,350 this this was actually not me. 216 00:13:23,350 --> 00:13:30,774 This was a co-worker, but someone only added 5,842 lines of code to a project, 217 00:13:30,774 --> 00:13:35,016 but they removed 179,000 lines of code. 218 00:13:37,925 --> 00:13:40,492 Constantly changing based on new information or 219 00:13:40,492 --> 00:13:43,941 how people are using things, it's all refactoring essentially 220 00:13:47,071 --> 00:13:52,219 All right, our next lesson is gonna talk about delegating to meet deadlines. 221 00:13:52,219 --> 00:13:54,250 And so this is another big one, right? 222 00:13:56,290 --> 00:14:01,190 So this is Andrew and he was a teacher before he moved into tech. 223 00:14:01,190 --> 00:14:05,611 He talks about how his teaching skills help him to interact with his team in 224 00:14:05,611 --> 00:14:10,190 a way that leaves everyone feeling competent, confident, and cared for. 225 00:14:10,190 --> 00:14:13,088 And I don't think we can ask for more than that, really. 226 00:14:13,088 --> 00:14:16,400 And so let's talk about delegation again using Andrew as an example. 227 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,714 So in his previous career as an educator you have to delegate 228 00:14:19,714 --> 00:14:23,680 with administrators or they're gonna delegate to you, right? 229 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,010 Working with unruly pupils, student teachers, 230 00:14:26,010 --> 00:14:28,010 what is the student teacher gonna work on? 231 00:14:28,010 --> 00:14:29,584 What are you gonna work on? 232 00:14:29,584 --> 00:14:30,612 And then parents, right? 233 00:14:30,612 --> 00:14:34,682 There's just a lot of different moving parts you have to work with that some will 234 00:14:34,682 --> 00:14:38,693 delegate to you, you will delegate to others, but really working together to 235 00:14:38,693 --> 00:14:42,300 make sure that everything is happening as successfully as possible. 236 00:14:43,830 --> 00:14:46,740 The same is true again, if we go back to the service sector, right? 237 00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:52,820 So, if your server, if we use that example of a server, you're working with a host. 238 00:14:52,820 --> 00:14:55,748 If you're working in a place that serves alcohol, you're working with 239 00:14:55,748 --> 00:14:58,532 the bartender, the chef who actually makes the food that you serve, 240 00:14:58,532 --> 00:15:00,700 you have to coordinate with the patrons themselves. 241 00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:04,114 So, making sure that everyone has their needs met, making sure people are sitting 242 00:15:04,114 --> 00:15:07,409 in a table that works for them if anyone has different needs, things like that. 243 00:15:07,409 --> 00:15:10,719 So just a lot of working with different groups of people to ensure that you 244 00:15:10,719 --> 00:15:11,540 are successful. 245 00:15:12,730 --> 00:15:16,510 And we see the same patterns play out in tech as well. 246 00:15:16,510 --> 00:15:19,030 So project manager, right? 247 00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:22,020 Maybe you're gonna work with a team that has a designer that you have to 248 00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:22,839 coordinate with. 249 00:15:22,839 --> 00:15:26,770 Quality assurance, doing testing, making sure that your code works well. 250 00:15:26,770 --> 00:15:31,420 Clients, if you're working on a product that has your clients or users, 251 00:15:31,420 --> 00:15:37,490 there's just a lot of different moving parts no matter what your role is in tech. 252 00:15:37,490 --> 00:15:41,723 And especially when you first start out in a new career path, 253 00:15:41,723 --> 00:15:45,550 there's just a lot you can't do by yourself, right? 254 00:15:45,550 --> 00:15:48,406 And that makes sense and people expect that because you're new and 255 00:15:48,406 --> 00:15:49,460 you're learning. 256 00:15:49,460 --> 00:15:52,350 And it just takes time to build up that experience. 257 00:15:52,350 --> 00:15:56,562 And so with that in mind, if you're coming to a new company and 258 00:15:56,562 --> 00:16:01,424 you already have these skills, this adaptability, the delegation, 259 00:16:01,424 --> 00:16:05,895 if you come with those skills intact from previous experiences. 260 00:16:05,895 --> 00:16:10,985 That's really going to help you to do that growth and to advance a lot more 261 00:16:10,985 --> 00:16:15,749 quickly than if you didn't have any experience doing that before. 262 00:16:18,581 --> 00:16:22,960 Hey, lesson 4, feedback is a feature, not a bug. 263 00:16:25,370 --> 00:16:26,522 So this is Jacob and 264 00:16:26,522 --> 00:16:30,940 he has a PhD in philosophy before he went into programming. 265 00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:36,078 And he talks about how the communication-oriented aspect of 266 00:16:36,078 --> 00:16:42,219 his liberal arts education has been essential to his work as a developer. 267 00:16:42,219 --> 00:16:44,314 So we're talking about feedback loops. 268 00:16:44,314 --> 00:16:49,256 And again, looking at Jacob's experiences and kind of how that shaped his ability 269 00:16:49,256 --> 00:16:53,430 to navigate feedback loops and then how those play out in tech as well. 270 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,020 So in liberal arts, I can papers but like really lots of papers and 271 00:16:59,020 --> 00:17:03,440 anyone who has a liberal arts degree knows exactly what I'm talking about. 272 00:17:04,570 --> 00:17:06,816 And then in Jacob's case specifically group discussion. 273 00:17:06,816 --> 00:17:09,470 So there was a lot of group discussion in his philosophy classes. 274 00:17:11,830 --> 00:17:13,678 Look at the service sector, 275 00:17:13,678 --> 00:17:19,870 I don't think everyone pretty much all the time has an opinion about something. 276 00:17:19,870 --> 00:17:22,401 If you're under-performing in the service sector, 277 00:17:22,401 --> 00:17:25,653 you don't have to wait until a weekly or monthly one on one to find out. 278 00:17:25,653 --> 00:17:30,100 Someone will tell you immediately and they might not do it in the nicest way. 279 00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:33,436 And so that really builds a thick skin and ability to accept and 280 00:17:33,436 --> 00:17:37,543 hear negative feedback and analyze it, like, find out yes, this is true, 281 00:17:37,543 --> 00:17:40,753 I should be doing this differently or that's a great idea, 282 00:17:40,753 --> 00:17:44,347 incorporate that, or like, no, I think I'm doing this right and 283 00:17:44,347 --> 00:17:48,430 I'm just gonna let that slide because I feel confident in what I'm doing. 284 00:17:48,430 --> 00:17:50,770 And that's a really, really useful skill. 285 00:17:52,540 --> 00:17:53,789 Now let's look at tech. 286 00:17:53,789 --> 00:17:57,060 So how do feedback loops play out in tech? 287 00:17:57,060 --> 00:18:00,041 So code review is a big one, if you're doing programming, 288 00:18:00,041 --> 00:18:04,036 almost certainly someone is going to be looking at the code that you write before 289 00:18:04,036 --> 00:18:06,200 it gets pushed farther down the pipeline. 290 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,834 If you have several stakeholders, 291 00:18:09,834 --> 00:18:15,300 you can probably be demoing any changes to them and with some kind of regularity. 292 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:17,865 So that's another way that you're getting feedback from folks who 293 00:18:17,865 --> 00:18:19,670 are directly involved. 294 00:18:19,670 --> 00:18:21,340 Again, quality assurance testing. 295 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,690 The best programmers in the world still write bugs. 296 00:18:25,690 --> 00:18:28,832 And even if you're really good at testing your code before it gets to QA, 297 00:18:28,832 --> 00:18:30,390 they're professionals, right? 298 00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:33,790 Their job is to find things that we might have overlooked as programmers. 299 00:18:33,790 --> 00:18:35,800 And so that's another way that we get feedback on our work. 300 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:37,670 And then user response. 301 00:18:37,670 --> 00:18:40,140 So when it finally gets to our end users, 302 00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:44,790 they're gonna have feedback as well on the work that we've done. 303 00:18:44,790 --> 00:18:49,175 And so again, this can be really hard for folks who come into any industry, but 304 00:18:49,175 --> 00:18:50,372 specifically tech, 305 00:18:50,372 --> 00:18:54,767 who come in without having experienced these kinds of feedback loops before. 306 00:18:54,767 --> 00:18:57,387 It can be really challenging because people 307 00:18:57,387 --> 00:19:02,005 are constantly looking at your work and telling you how you did. 308 00:19:02,005 --> 00:19:06,842 And so again like if you come from a background where you worked in 309 00:19:06,842 --> 00:19:11,770 service where you had a large degree where you had any kind of job, 310 00:19:11,770 --> 00:19:15,590 or feedback was a part of what you were doing. 311 00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:21,065 That gives you a leg up coming into tech because you're able to actually 312 00:19:21,065 --> 00:19:26,370 make use of that feedback in a way that helps you instead of hurts you. 313 00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:30,625 And then lesson number 5, 314 00:19:30,625 --> 00:19:34,446 and I think this is probably one of the biggest one that I see in tech. 315 00:19:34,446 --> 00:19:38,321 And again, maybe at this point it's good to say that this isn't to say that people 316 00:19:38,321 --> 00:19:41,484 with computer science degrees don't have these skills, right? 317 00:19:41,484 --> 00:19:45,840 Because lots of folks who are in college are also working in service to pay for 318 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,730 school, or things like that. 319 00:19:47,730 --> 00:19:52,230 So, this isn't like a mutually exclusive kind of thing. 320 00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:55,745 But in my experience and also from research that I've done and 321 00:19:55,745 --> 00:20:00,138 all of that, these are skills that I have found working at a company that hires 322 00:20:00,138 --> 00:20:03,540 a lot of boot camp grads and sort of non traditional coders. 323 00:20:04,711 --> 00:20:10,599 These are skills that are more likely to accompany those non-traditional 324 00:20:10,599 --> 00:20:16,401 folks than people who are fresh out of their CS degree, in my experience. 325 00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:20,836 And a big one that comes from there is empathy, and this is huge in tech and 326 00:20:20,836 --> 00:20:22,422 it does not get enough attention, 327 00:20:22,422 --> 00:20:25,889 I don't think, although that is starting to get better, which is great. 328 00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:31,410 So again, we talked earlier about that concept of we are not our users, right? 329 00:20:32,590 --> 00:20:37,446 Bootcamp grads and self-taught coders are more likely to already 330 00:20:37,446 --> 00:20:42,562 grasp this process because there's a good chance that they don't fit 331 00:20:42,562 --> 00:20:47,880 the typical mold of the white cishet male tech worker in at least one way. 332 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,223 So 30% of bootcamp grads, again, this is US and 333 00:20:52,223 --> 00:20:57,172 Canadian data, are people of color, 37% are women and 334 00:20:57,172 --> 00:21:02,160 nonbinary, 41% don't have a college degree. 335 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,841 And these are not typical statistics if you just grabbed 336 00:21:06,841 --> 00:21:10,240 your average full-time check worker. 337 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:15,058 And so by coming into a space, having lived an experience where we already have 338 00:21:15,058 --> 00:21:18,197 been an outsider in probably lots of situations and 339 00:21:18,197 --> 00:21:22,580 then coming into a space that needs more outsiders, it is so valuable. 340 00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:30,326 That being said, right, I just talked about how those of 341 00:21:30,326 --> 00:21:35,325 us who are bootcamp, grads or self-taught coders are not 342 00:21:35,325 --> 00:21:41,350 likely to mirror a lot of our coworkers at future tech jobs. 343 00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:43,530 And so that can be tough, right? 344 00:21:43,530 --> 00:21:44,440 That can be really hard. 345 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,416 I was the first full-time non-white dude 346 00:21:48,416 --> 00:21:52,670 [LAUGH] hired at my company when I started. 347 00:21:52,670 --> 00:21:56,582 And now we're, I think, 75% women and a third women of color, and 348 00:21:56,582 --> 00:21:58,950 it's gotten way better. 349 00:21:58,950 --> 00:22:01,840 But it's really tough to be one of the first ones. 350 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,576 And so this section is kind of aimed at anyone who has hiring influence, but also 351 00:22:06,576 --> 00:22:11,314 I think is useful when you're evaluating companies that you wanna work at, and 352 00:22:11,314 --> 00:22:14,020 think, are they doing some of these things? 353 00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:16,465 If I suggest this, what is their reaction? 354 00:22:16,465 --> 00:22:19,579 Because that will tell you a lot about the kind of company it is and 355 00:22:19,579 --> 00:22:22,934 if they're willing or able to help you be successful at your new job. 356 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,848 So some best practices that we found at Ten Forward over the years, 357 00:22:29,848 --> 00:22:33,818 hiring a lot of bootcamp grads, self-taught coders, 358 00:22:33,818 --> 00:22:37,270 people without even high school diplomas. 359 00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:42,209 What are ways that we found we can support them to ensure that they're able to 360 00:22:42,209 --> 00:22:44,300 succeed and to feel supported? 361 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,470 So mentorship is a big one. 362 00:22:47,470 --> 00:22:49,827 We have internship and apprenticeship programs. 363 00:22:49,827 --> 00:22:54,656 And our interns and apprentices meet with at least one 364 00:22:54,656 --> 00:22:57,876 existing team member every week for 365 00:22:57,876 --> 00:23:03,560 half hour or an hour, and that space is sacrosanct. 366 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,010 So no meetings to be scheduled over it like that. 367 00:23:07,010 --> 00:23:10,756 If someone's out sick, it's rescheduled because that time is really important to 368 00:23:10,756 --> 00:23:14,027 just give someone an outlet so that they feel like they have someone to talk 369 00:23:14,027 --> 00:23:17,720 to that they can ask questions that might make them feel silly asking someone else, 370 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,540 although there are no silly questions. 371 00:23:21,180 --> 00:23:22,523 Structure is a big one, right? 372 00:23:22,523 --> 00:23:26,758 If you come into a new industry and you're the only person who looks like you, 373 00:23:26,758 --> 00:23:30,409 and everyone's been programming ten years longer than you have, 374 00:23:30,409 --> 00:23:32,320 that can be really intimidating. 375 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,611 And if someone just says, hey, here's a project, see what you can do on it, 376 00:23:36,611 --> 00:23:39,320 there are some of us who thrive in that situation. 377 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,120 But a lot of us, that's really challenging and can be really intimidating. 378 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:45,300 And so we really like to provide a lot of structure. 379 00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:48,180 So these weeks, this is what you're working on. 380 00:23:48,180 --> 00:23:49,727 These are specific stories you're gonna do or 381 00:23:49,727 --> 00:23:51,950 these are specific ways you're gonna contribute. 382 00:23:51,950 --> 00:23:53,404 This is your point of contact if you have questions. 383 00:23:53,404 --> 00:23:57,790 This is dedicated pairing times you're gonna work directly with someone else. 384 00:23:59,110 --> 00:24:03,320 Really just making it clear, where can they find answers to questions? 385 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:04,850 Who is the best person to talk to? 386 00:24:04,850 --> 00:24:06,240 What are they gonna be working on? 387 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,670 What is the value or the purpose of what they're working on? 388 00:24:08,670 --> 00:24:09,640 What are they gonna learn from it? 389 00:24:10,790 --> 00:24:14,878 And I find that that is really helpful making people feel like their 390 00:24:14,878 --> 00:24:19,623 contributions are valued, and also that they can own what they're doing and 391 00:24:19,623 --> 00:24:21,160 actually learn from it. 392 00:24:23,530 --> 00:24:25,050 And then hiring in pairs. 393 00:24:25,050 --> 00:24:29,509 So sometimes I will tell people this and they kind of blanch, 394 00:24:29,509 --> 00:24:34,240 it's hard enough to find one, how am I gonna find multiple? 395 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,619 But I think this is really important because again, if you're the only, 396 00:24:39,619 --> 00:24:44,999 insert whatever, at your company, the only person with disabilities, 397 00:24:44,999 --> 00:24:50,250 the only person of color, the only mom, it can be really tough. 398 00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:56,015 And so, especially when we were still mostly white dudes, 399 00:24:56,015 --> 00:25:02,124 we tried to make sure that we were bringing people on together so 400 00:25:02,124 --> 00:25:06,880 that you weren't the only one who is different. 401 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,570 You weren't the only one who was new, right? 402 00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:12,674 You weren't the only junior, you weren't the only, insert. 403 00:25:12,674 --> 00:25:14,980 Again, it's really kind of whatever. 404 00:25:14,980 --> 00:25:19,693 Just feeling like you're not alone really has such an impact on how successful any 405 00:25:19,693 --> 00:25:20,932 of us can be, right? 406 00:25:20,932 --> 00:25:23,600 It's feeling like we're in it together. 407 00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:27,640 And then setting clear expectations. 408 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:28,700 This is another really big one. 409 00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:31,150 This kinda goes back to that idea of structure, right? 410 00:25:31,150 --> 00:25:34,510 So what am I responsible for? 411 00:25:34,510 --> 00:25:36,450 What happens if I'm struggling to get it done? 412 00:25:36,450 --> 00:25:37,361 Who do I talk to? 413 00:25:37,361 --> 00:25:39,237 What resources do I have access to? 414 00:25:39,237 --> 00:25:44,187 Really making it clear what juniors in particular are expected, 415 00:25:44,187 --> 00:25:46,780 what's expected of them. 416 00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:50,473 And so I have a link here at tinyurl.com/ten-forward-ranks, and 417 00:25:50,473 --> 00:25:53,799 that's just an example of how we've done that at Ten Forward. 418 00:25:53,799 --> 00:25:57,941 And so we have clearly delineated ranks in there, 419 00:25:57,941 --> 00:26:01,993 irrespective of the type of work you're doing. 420 00:26:01,993 --> 00:26:06,305 It's just based on experience and ability and interest, 421 00:26:06,305 --> 00:26:10,270 because not everybody wants to continually move up. 422 00:26:10,270 --> 00:26:13,510 But if you do, we wanted to create a clear way for 423 00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:16,110 you to know how to accomplish that. 424 00:26:16,110 --> 00:26:19,441 And so it lists the different expectations for each role, the responsibilities, and 425 00:26:19,441 --> 00:26:20,980 then also the privileges. 426 00:26:20,980 --> 00:26:24,449 And so folks can really sort of choose their own adventure and 427 00:26:24,449 --> 00:26:27,986 craft a career that gets them the challenges that they want and 428 00:26:27,986 --> 00:26:32,546 also the benefits that they want without feeling like they have to be shoehorned 429 00:26:32,546 --> 00:26:35,771 into someone else's idea of what a good job looks like. 430 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,120 And then patience. 431 00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,078 And so this one, again, this section is kind of aimed at folks who are 're hiring, 432 00:26:43,078 --> 00:26:45,491 or if you're working with bootcamp grads or self-taught coders, 433 00:26:45,491 --> 00:26:48,250 how you can be more supportive of them in your work environment. 434 00:26:48,250 --> 00:26:51,560 But I think this is also really important for us to remember too, right? 435 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,840 Is to be patient with ourselves when we're starting new careers. 436 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,970 I remember when I first joined Ten Forward about five and a half years ago 437 00:26:59,970 --> 00:27:05,116 as an intern, if I couldn't figure something out, I just felt awful. 438 00:27:05,116 --> 00:27:06,294 I felt like the worst. 439 00:27:06,294 --> 00:27:08,090 I was like, everyone knows more than me. 440 00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:10,964 Everyone has to spend so much time working with me. 441 00:27:10,964 --> 00:27:13,054 I'm not contributing at all. 442 00:27:13,054 --> 00:27:15,260 I can't believe they're paying me to do this. 443 00:27:16,390 --> 00:27:19,200 And that's just not true. 444 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,591 I mean, better or worse, 445 00:27:20,591 --> 00:27:24,151 we're in a capitalist society here in the United States at least. 446 00:27:27,352 --> 00:27:33,010 If you have a job and people want to see you succeed, it's because they value you. 447 00:27:33,010 --> 00:27:34,502 Sometimes I think it's easy for 448 00:27:34,502 --> 00:27:38,900 us to forget our own value because we just compare ourselves to everyone around us. 449 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:41,131 And if you're taking Treehouse courses and 450 00:27:41,131 --> 00:27:43,541 you're looking to break into tech in some way, 451 00:27:43,541 --> 00:27:48,120 you probably will know less than everyone else at your first job, and that's okay. 452 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:50,520 And people expect that, right? 453 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:51,833 You're there to learn and to grow. 454 00:27:51,833 --> 00:27:57,176 And I find that keeping a weekly journal of one thing you learned that week that 455 00:27:57,176 --> 00:28:02,847 you can write down and then looking back at that after your first month, your first 456 00:28:02,847 --> 00:28:08,120 two months, and it really helps you to realize that you are learning a lot. 457 00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:10,980 It's just sometimes hard for us to see our own growth. 458 00:28:10,980 --> 00:28:12,690 And so we have to be patient with ourselves. 459 00:28:12,690 --> 00:28:17,193 And also, if you're hiring or working with bootcamp grads or self-taught coders, 460 00:28:17,193 --> 00:28:19,520 we have to be patient with them too, right? 461 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,700 It's really tough to break into a new industry. 462 00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:26,582 And one of the best ways to support people as well is to foster an environment where 463 00:28:26,582 --> 00:28:27,964 questions are encouraged. 464 00:28:27,964 --> 00:28:30,120 So there are no bad questions. 465 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:33,642 It's amazing, like I'm a senior programmer now, I've been doing it for five and 466 00:28:33,642 --> 00:28:34,440 a half years. 467 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,420 And whenever I pair with a junior, I learn something. 468 00:28:37,420 --> 00:28:40,885 So maybe it's something I used to know that I forgot, because we can only fit so 469 00:28:40,885 --> 00:28:42,630 much in our heads at one point. 470 00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:43,960 Or maybe it's something I never knew. 471 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,612 Maybe it's something new that they researched cuz I couldn't figure out how 472 00:28:46,612 --> 00:28:49,830 to do something and I was just doing it the same way I'd always been doing it. 473 00:28:49,830 --> 00:28:52,992 So there are no silly questions, and in an ideal workplace, 474 00:28:52,992 --> 00:28:55,596 we're all learning from each other all the time, 475 00:28:55,596 --> 00:28:58,833 no matter how much experience someone does or doesn't have. 476 00:28:58,833 --> 00:29:02,170 That's actually one of my favorite things about working in tech. 477 00:29:04,450 --> 00:29:08,125 And then last thing because it bears frequent repeating, 478 00:29:08,125 --> 00:29:10,810 empathy is everything, right? 479 00:29:10,810 --> 00:29:13,428 So we have to give empathy to ourselves, 480 00:29:13,428 --> 00:29:18,741 especially now with everything going on in the world, empathy to our coworkers, 481 00:29:18,741 --> 00:29:24,340 and empathy, especially to our new hires, no matter what their background is. 482 00:29:24,340 --> 00:29:28,110 So help the folks that you work with, work with the folks you hire to help you, 483 00:29:28,110 --> 00:29:30,372 because the rising tide does raise all boats. 484 00:29:30,372 --> 00:29:34,721 And as we've just talked about in this presentation, bootcamp grads, 485 00:29:34,721 --> 00:29:40,620 self-taught coders bring a lot of value to your company straight from the beginning. 486 00:29:40,620 --> 00:29:43,770 Leveling up someone's tech skills is relatively easy compared to teaching them 487 00:29:43,770 --> 00:29:46,891 all the other stuff that they already know that they're bringing to the table. 488 00:29:51,195 --> 00:29:53,114 So thanks, that's my presentation. 489 00:29:53,114 --> 00:29:55,480 You can find me on Twitter. 490 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,056 If anyone has any questions about anything, 491 00:29:57,056 --> 00:29:58,433 I'm gonna answer some questions now. 492 00:29:58,433 --> 00:30:02,741 But if anyone has any specific questions or you just wanna talk, like I love, love, 493 00:30:02,741 --> 00:30:05,836 love, love doing virtual coffees, I'm a huge extrovert, 494 00:30:05,836 --> 00:30:08,670 so Pandemic life has been really hard. 495 00:30:08,670 --> 00:30:09,426 So like seriously, 496 00:30:09,426 --> 00:30:12,310 email me, I know some folks have already reached out on LinkedIn. 497 00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:15,066 I'm a little behind on my email, but that made me so happy, and 498 00:30:15,066 --> 00:30:17,890 I'm really excited to connect with all of you. 499 00:30:17,890 --> 00:30:20,513 And again, if you want to review the sides the. 500 00:30:20,513 --> 00:30:21,900 The link is right there as well. 501 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,650 So I'll leave that up for just a minute. 502 00:30:25,650 --> 00:30:28,240 And then I have some scope here quick item citation. 503 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,352 So again, if you want to see where I got some of that data, 504 00:30:30,352 --> 00:30:31,550 you can just look at the slides. 505 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:41,330 And, yeah, so then I'm going to answer some questions that have come in. 506 00:30:43,510 --> 00:30:47,117 All right, do I see the career paths of non computer science 507 00:30:47,117 --> 00:30:51,899 grads proceeding at the same or different pace after they are in the industry? 508 00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:57,253 I think it really just depends. 509 00:31:01,153 --> 00:31:03,180 I'm trying to think of the best way to answer this question. 510 00:31:03,180 --> 00:31:09,658 So One thing I say a lot to folks. 511 00:31:09,658 --> 00:31:15,410 So I mentor at a local boot camp here in Madison run by the YWCA. 512 00:31:15,410 --> 00:31:19,595 And a lot of times I get asked like, Well, how do I find my first job right, 513 00:31:19,595 --> 00:31:21,230 which is the hard one. 514 00:31:21,230 --> 00:31:22,850 Arguably the hardest is finding your first job. 515 00:31:24,030 --> 00:31:28,358 And, we'll talk a lot about how the type of environment can make 516 00:31:28,358 --> 00:31:33,190 a big difference on the rest of your career in the industry. 517 00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:34,393 I mean, if your first job is terrible, 518 00:31:34,393 --> 00:31:36,630 it doesn't mean that you're never gonna get a good job in tech, right? 519 00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:37,580 That's not what I'm trying to say. 520 00:31:37,580 --> 00:31:42,593 But if you're in a position, financially, emotionally where you can 521 00:31:42,593 --> 00:31:47,450 Take some time and be a little more picky about the first job you take. 522 00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:53,290 I think that can, that can be really helpful going forward. 523 00:31:53,290 --> 00:31:57,844 So, for example, when I graduated from my bootcamp, I knew what I didn't want, 524 00:31:57,844 --> 00:31:59,780 because I'd had jobs before. 525 00:31:59,780 --> 00:32:04,297 So I knew from those previous experiences, the kind of environment that wasn't really 526 00:32:04,297 --> 00:32:07,810 conducive to me doing my best work and conversely, what. 527 00:32:07,810 --> 00:32:13,510 Types of culture environment I wanted that would really make me feel I could thrive. 528 00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:17,148 So that was a part of my job search, 529 00:32:17,148 --> 00:32:20,970 was I wanted a company that did a lot of community work. 530 00:32:20,970 --> 00:32:23,733 I wanted one that was dedicated to diversity and inclusivity. 531 00:32:23,733 --> 00:32:27,317 I knew I wanted to work at a consulting company because I wanted to work on a lot 532 00:32:27,317 --> 00:32:28,310 of projects. 533 00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:30,988 So I think and I was lucky that I was in a position 534 00:32:30,988 --> 00:32:34,970 where I have a little bit of money left over after bootcamp. 535 00:32:34,970 --> 00:32:38,400 I could stay with family if I needed to, while I found a good fit. 536 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,630 I didn't have any kids, right, I was healthy. 537 00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:41,740 So I was able to do that. 538 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,278 I think it's helpful even if you really kind of just need to take the first 539 00:32:47,278 --> 00:32:49,887 job you can get which I totally understand like, 540 00:32:49,887 --> 00:32:53,340 more power to you thinking about as much as you can ahead of time. 541 00:32:53,340 --> 00:32:55,120 The kind of work you want to do is really helpful. 542 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,256 So, do you want to work for a product company? 543 00:32:58,256 --> 00:32:59,400 Do you want to work for a startup? 544 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,310 Do you want to do consulting, do you want to work for a big corporation? 545 00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:08,310 Or do you want to be part of a tiny tech team at an otherwise non-tech company? 546 00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:09,700 That kind of thing. 547 00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:12,287 And maybe you have no idea and that's fine, and 548 00:33:12,287 --> 00:33:16,220 you'll get your first job and you kind of figure it out as you go. 549 00:33:16,220 --> 00:33:18,215 I think one benefit is that, 550 00:33:18,215 --> 00:33:23,380 C Esther grades are perhaps more shoehorned into specific types of jobs. 551 00:33:23,380 --> 00:33:27,260 Like the kind of jobs that say you have to have a computer science degree. 552 00:33:27,260 --> 00:33:32,667 Whereas, when you have a boot camp degree, especially with whatever other 553 00:33:32,667 --> 00:33:38,340 experience you have or if you've self taught on applications like Treehouse. 554 00:33:39,650 --> 00:33:42,710 That in a lot of ways, I think makes you more marketable. 555 00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:43,952 So like when I was hired at Ford, 556 00:33:43,952 --> 00:33:46,740 one of the things they highlighted was that I used to be a journalist. 557 00:33:46,740 --> 00:33:49,380 And so they said, we have no one on staff we can write, 558 00:33:49,380 --> 00:33:50,920 we really want a company blog. 559 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,110 Is that something you'd be interested in. 560 00:33:52,110 --> 00:33:54,589 And of course, I was like, that was a great fit for 561 00:33:54,589 --> 00:33:57,366 me because then I got to combine, my previous career and 562 00:33:57,366 --> 00:34:00,210 my new career as part of my job, which is really great. 563 00:34:00,210 --> 00:34:03,940 So It might look different. 564 00:34:03,940 --> 00:34:08,364 But in terms of pacing, I think it just depends on the company where you're 565 00:34:08,364 --> 00:34:11,526 working and the kind of growth that you want because, 566 00:34:11,526 --> 00:34:16,390 some people want to, like everybody wants different things out of their career. 567 00:34:16,390 --> 00:34:20,752 So it really depends on what you want as well and then having the. 568 00:34:24,485 --> 00:34:27,539 Keeping in mind that because there are so many unfilled jobs in tech and 569 00:34:27,539 --> 00:34:30,720 especially now where remote work is even more of a possibility. 570 00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:33,432 If you're at a job that makes you really unhappy and 571 00:34:33,432 --> 00:34:37,750 that you feel like he's not allowing you to grow, there are other jobs. 572 00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:41,537 And like it's easier for me to say that as a white person, obviously. 573 00:34:41,537 --> 00:34:43,915 But there are a lot of unfilled tech jobs and 574 00:34:43,915 --> 00:34:48,090 almost all companies these days have some kind of tech component. 575 00:34:48,090 --> 00:34:51,604 And so really like keeping your mind open to to the kind of job that you want can be 576 00:34:51,604 --> 00:34:52,414 really helpful. 577 00:34:52,414 --> 00:34:55,561 I think that was a really long rambling answer, 578 00:34:55,561 --> 00:34:57,930 but I hope some of that was helpful. 579 00:34:59,180 --> 00:35:01,070 I'm leaving the banking and finance industry. 580 00:35:01,070 --> 00:35:04,004 How would you be able to incorporate my experience as an industry? 581 00:35:04,004 --> 00:35:05,400 That's a great question. 582 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,670 Fintech like financial tech is huge. 583 00:35:08,670 --> 00:35:13,480 I mean that's just a really big subset of the tech industry. 584 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,810 And so I think it's similar like if you had, 585 00:35:16,810 --> 00:35:20,380 Medical experience and wanna get into tech. 586 00:35:20,380 --> 00:35:21,430 Med tech is huge. 587 00:35:21,430 --> 00:35:22,554 Biotech. There are so 588 00:35:22,554 --> 00:35:25,654 many subsets of tech as a broad spectrum that, 589 00:35:25,654 --> 00:35:30,423 speaking as someone who does hiring, I would love if someone came in and 590 00:35:30,423 --> 00:35:35,810 they already had experience related to the core of what we're building. 591 00:35:35,810 --> 00:35:37,220 Like that's phenomenal. 592 00:35:37,220 --> 00:35:42,085 So if you enjoyed aspects of banking and finance, yeah,look at FinTech and see what 593 00:35:42,085 --> 00:35:46,970 kind of opportunities here because I think that would only be a boost to your resume. 594 00:35:49,090 --> 00:35:50,410 Is age a very big factor? 595 00:35:50,410 --> 00:35:53,180 I'm 45 and finished my first tech degree. 596 00:35:53,180 --> 00:35:54,500 Yeah, I wish I could say no. 597 00:35:55,660 --> 00:35:58,790 Unfortunately, we are not at that point in our society. 598 00:35:58,790 --> 00:36:03,090 And there are some places who will almost certainly consciously or 599 00:36:03,090 --> 00:36:05,699 not engage in ageism when they see that, 600 00:36:05,699 --> 00:36:10,490 from my experience, so our current apprentice at 10 forward. 601 00:36:10,490 --> 00:36:11,980 Is in her 40s. 602 00:36:13,180 --> 00:36:20,280 And that never really crossed my mind except in good ways. 603 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,298 So if anything, it was like okay, well, 604 00:36:22,298 --> 00:36:25,590 I know from her resume like she's done different types of work. 605 00:36:25,590 --> 00:36:26,570 She knows what she likes. 606 00:36:26,570 --> 00:36:27,590 She knows what she's doing. 607 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,780 She has again all of that experience that she's bringing to the table. 608 00:36:32,780 --> 00:36:38,240 So even if her tech skills are more junior level, her work skills, if you will 609 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:43,800 are a lot higher, than maybe a 17 year old Junior that we would hire, right? 610 00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:48,380 So, the answer is unfortunately Yes. 611 00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:50,107 Some companies that. 612 00:36:50,107 --> 00:36:52,078 That might hurt you. 613 00:36:52,078 --> 00:36:55,795 I would argue you probably don't want to work at those companies anyway. 614 00:36:55,795 --> 00:36:58,474 But also, it's easy to say that it is someone who has a job, 615 00:36:58,474 --> 00:37:01,060 rather than someone who's looking for their first job. 616 00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:07,960 So, I think just really like trying to turn that to your advantage. 617 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,055 Especially in interviews, you know talk about yeah, 618 00:37:10,055 --> 00:37:11,750 like I know I'm like just address it right? 619 00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:15,009 Like I know I'm not maybe the average person you would think of for 620 00:37:15,009 --> 00:37:18,280 a junior position but like here's what I can bring to the table. 621 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:19,320 Here's why I'm going to be awesome. 622 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,580 And here's why I think you would really do the company service to hire me. 623 00:37:22,580 --> 00:37:24,330 I just really try to turn that into an asset. 624 00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:29,988 How long did it take you to learn to program? 625 00:37:29,988 --> 00:37:36,500 So [LAUGH] they go on to say, I still feel like I'm not picking things up. 626 00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:40,240 I almost cried the other day. 627 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,052 Like real talk I almost cried the other day because I could not figure 628 00:37:43,052 --> 00:37:44,480 something out. 629 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,110 And I think part of that is being remote. 630 00:37:46,110 --> 00:37:49,753 Again, I'm an extrovert part of it is like pairing is just different like our company 631 00:37:49,753 --> 00:37:51,110 normally is in the office. 632 00:37:51,110 --> 00:37:53,010 And so pairing remotely is still something. 633 00:37:53,010 --> 00:37:56,554 I'm getting used to, And I think the more senior you get the fewer people, 634 00:37:56,554 --> 00:37:59,931 there are on the team who can necessarily help you with the really tricky 635 00:37:59,931 --> 00:38:00,900 problems, right? 636 00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:02,631 For some stuff just is a matter of experience. 637 00:38:02,631 --> 00:38:08,365 So there is no right or wrong way to code and there is no I mean, 638 00:38:08,365 --> 00:38:13,313 there are things that are always that you're always 639 00:38:13,313 --> 00:38:17,370 going to pick up faster than other people. 640 00:38:17,370 --> 00:38:19,810 There are things that other people are going to pick up faster than you. 641 00:38:19,810 --> 00:38:24,914 There are things that you're going to pick up faster yourself than other parts, 642 00:38:24,914 --> 00:38:30,260 right like maybe sequel, just like really makes sense to you and you really love it. 643 00:38:30,260 --> 00:38:33,468 But CSS is like what I what is even going on right now. 644 00:38:33,468 --> 00:38:36,750 And that's fine. 645 00:38:36,750 --> 00:38:40,910 Right? I think, I think learning to code is hard. 646 00:38:40,910 --> 00:38:43,280 And I think we don't talk about that enough. 647 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,058 Right. I mean, it's like, it's, it's, 648 00:38:46,058 --> 00:38:48,890 it's like learning a foreign language. 649 00:38:48,890 --> 00:38:52,130 I wouldn't be able to learn Arabic In two months. 650 00:38:52,130 --> 00:38:53,020 Like that just won't happen. 651 00:38:54,090 --> 00:38:58,840 And we all learn and grow at different paces, and in different ways. 652 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:05,220 And so my boot camp was three months full time, and I mean full time. 653 00:39:05,220 --> 00:39:09,179 Like it would have been really hard to have a side job, or kids, 654 00:39:09,179 --> 00:39:10,460 it was a lot of work. 655 00:39:11,470 --> 00:39:16,050 And I would say it was probably six months into my first job 656 00:39:16,050 --> 00:39:19,905 before I actually started to feel like I got it. 657 00:39:19,905 --> 00:39:23,220 [LAUGH] But when that happens, it's such a great feeling. 658 00:39:23,220 --> 00:39:27,315 So I would encourage you to just like hold out and you'll get there. 659 00:39:27,315 --> 00:39:32,228 It might take a while, but that's okay because then it's gonna feel that much 660 00:39:32,228 --> 00:39:36,710 more powerful when you when you do feel like you're starting to get it. 661 00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:37,440 Let's see here. 662 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,860 Which boot camp did you go to unfortunately, my bootcamp is no more. 663 00:39:40,860 --> 00:39:43,210 I went to Omaha code school and I loved it. 664 00:39:43,210 --> 00:39:44,760 It was such a good experience. 665 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,920 Our class was like half women. 666 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,807 I don't, this is a while ago, but I want to say it was like Of fourth-third 667 00:39:52,807 --> 00:39:58,130 people of color, it really did match those statistics we saw earlier, right? 668 00:39:58,130 --> 00:40:00,174 And it was just such a supportive environment, 669 00:40:00,174 --> 00:40:02,015 they really encouraged vulnerability and 670 00:40:02,015 --> 00:40:06,905 letting us be ourselves and Yeah, it was really great I really loved it. 671 00:40:06,905 --> 00:40:10,290 And there was a lot of really good boot camps out there, 672 00:40:10,290 --> 00:40:14,630 actually if anyone's interested, feel free to hit me up, I have some 673 00:40:14,630 --> 00:40:19,580 blog posts about how to pick a boot camp that I would be happy to share with folks. 674 00:40:19,580 --> 00:40:24,295 This a question I get a lot, how do I know what to study, what to focus on? 675 00:40:24,295 --> 00:40:29,203 I think the big thing is just not trying to focus on 676 00:40:29,203 --> 00:40:33,530 everything, especially the beginning. 677 00:40:33,530 --> 00:40:38,528 So when I'm hiring, if someone that was in Java Script really well, 678 00:40:38,528 --> 00:40:41,715 and maybe a little bit of back end language, 679 00:40:41,715 --> 00:40:47,338 like ruby on rails is what we use and then a little bit of rails, that's fine. 680 00:40:47,338 --> 00:40:51,852 I wanna see that you are able to learn a thing and I can teach you the rest, 681 00:40:51,852 --> 00:40:55,628 I can teach you what you need to know to work at this company. 682 00:40:55,628 --> 00:40:59,575 But if you come in and you know a tiny little bit of this, and a tiny little bit 683 00:40:59,575 --> 00:41:03,349 of that, it makes it hard for me to know if you can stick with something. 684 00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:06,394 So, for me, when I was deciding what programming languages to learn, 685 00:41:06,394 --> 00:41:09,587 I thought about the kind of work that I wanted to do, so I knew that I wanted to 686 00:41:09,587 --> 00:41:12,372 work with startups and I wanted to do full stack as a programmer. 687 00:41:12,372 --> 00:41:18,208 And so I wanted a boot camp that had, 688 00:41:18,208 --> 00:41:22,300 front end and back ends. 689 00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:26,895 And then for the back end, I chose Ruby on Rails because doing research I saw that 690 00:41:26,895 --> 00:41:31,491 a lot of startups use Ruby and Rails cuz it's a language that enables you to build 691 00:41:31,491 --> 00:41:36,116 something quickly and get something up quickly, so that was why I chose those. 692 00:41:36,116 --> 00:41:41,200 There really is no bad thing to focus on, I would maybe shy away from the trendy 693 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:46,051 new frameworks, because a lot of those end up falling by the wayside, but 694 00:41:46,051 --> 00:41:49,910 other that, it is a lot like learning a foreign language. 695 00:41:49,910 --> 00:41:53,749 So, like I took Spanish for a bunch of years and then I started taking French and 696 00:41:53,749 --> 00:41:56,851 French was so much easier because I'd already taken Spanish. 697 00:41:56,851 --> 00:42:00,786 So once you learn the syntax of a programming language, once you have that 698 00:42:00,786 --> 00:42:04,216 sort of core understanding of how programming languages work, 699 00:42:04,216 --> 00:42:08,406 It's that much easier to then transfer those skills to a different language or 700 00:42:08,406 --> 00:42:09,948 framework or what have you. 701 00:42:09,948 --> 00:42:14,019 So I think the main thing is, try to think about what you wanna do and 702 00:42:14,019 --> 00:42:17,676 which languages have frameworks might help you get there. 703 00:42:17,676 --> 00:42:22,427 But in the end really just picking one or two things, and 704 00:42:22,427 --> 00:42:27,484 focusing on them and getting to know them as well as you can, 705 00:42:27,484 --> 00:42:32,868 I think that's the main advice I would probably give for that. 706 00:42:32,868 --> 00:42:40,856 I'm actually gonna stop sharing to see how we're doing on time, okay? 707 00:42:40,856 --> 00:42:46,196 I am changing from the education field and getting to web involvement, 708 00:42:46,196 --> 00:42:51,180 Awesome!, any idea how to merge teaching and web development and 709 00:42:51,180 --> 00:42:55,286 then also they mentioned that they're older as well. 710 00:42:55,286 --> 00:43:00,792 So, we talked a little bit about the age one earlier, I think really just try to 711 00:43:00,792 --> 00:43:06,564 turn that into an asset and then, teaching I mean, teaching is such a useful one. 712 00:43:06,564 --> 00:43:12,088 So I was just at a different conference and we actually had a slack channel at 713 00:43:12,088 --> 00:43:17,894 the conference for people who are in tech as a second or third or fourth career. 714 00:43:17,894 --> 00:43:19,750 And it was really cool to hear people's stories and 715 00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:21,099 there were a lot of educators there. 716 00:43:21,099 --> 00:43:26,171 And, a lot of tech is teaching so whether it's teaching other people, 717 00:43:26,171 --> 00:43:31,160 that you're working with on your staff, whether it's teaching your 718 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,386 users about your product and how to use it, whether it's, 719 00:43:35,386 --> 00:43:40,710 working with, like a product person on why the feature they're asking for 720 00:43:40,710 --> 00:43:45,900 maybe isn't feasible based on, time constraints, things like that. 721 00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:49,376 There's a lot of educating in tech, and so, if someone comes in, 722 00:43:49,376 --> 00:43:52,977 again this is speaking from my experience, but if someone come in and 723 00:43:52,977 --> 00:43:56,637 say, hey you know you used to be teacher and now I'm working in tech and 724 00:43:56,637 --> 00:44:00,797 I'm like that awesome, that's great because we have a wide range of skills and 725 00:44:00,797 --> 00:44:02,697 abilities and experience levels. 726 00:44:02,697 --> 00:44:04,969 My company and a lot of companies too, 727 00:44:04,969 --> 00:44:09,798 and so having someone who are ready knows how to concisely convey information and 728 00:44:09,798 --> 00:44:13,574 break things down into smaller pieces, that's invaluable. 729 00:44:13,574 --> 00:44:18,841 So I think that's great and there are a lot of companies that do education 730 00:44:18,841 --> 00:44:24,021 based technology we work with multiple limits and forwards so there's 731 00:44:24,021 --> 00:44:29,830 lots of opportunities too, if you want to work in tech with an education Focus. 732 00:44:29,830 --> 00:44:33,887 >> Hello Hillary, I thought I would just join you for 733 00:44:33,887 --> 00:44:36,987 a second while we close your session. 734 00:44:36,987 --> 00:44:41,813 I really, really appreciated your thoughts and your encouragement and 735 00:44:41,813 --> 00:44:44,590 you sharing your knowledge, thank you. 736 00:44:44,590 --> 00:44:50,974 We'll give you all any second more to ask any questions before we go, 737 00:44:50,974 --> 00:44:56,147 I don't know if you caught this question from Beth about 738 00:44:56,147 --> 00:45:01,600 the blogs you mentioned, did you already answer that? 739 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,621 >> No, I didn't, Yeah, I wrote a couple of blog posts, 740 00:45:04,621 --> 00:45:09,222 because I had a lot people asking me some of the same questions over and over, like, 741 00:45:09,222 --> 00:45:13,097 how do I get a job after I graduate my boot camp and how do I pick which boot 742 00:45:13,097 --> 00:45:16,895 camp is right for me?, So I wrote a couple of blog posts about that. 743 00:45:16,895 --> 00:45:19,583 I could maybe find the links right away and put them in the chat, 744 00:45:19,583 --> 00:45:21,738 It probably wouldn't take me more than a second. 745 00:45:21,738 --> 00:45:24,398 >> Yeah, you go ahead and do that for a second and 746 00:45:24,398 --> 00:45:29,093 I'll look at the messages in the chat, thanks so much everyone for joining us. 747 00:45:29,093 --> 00:45:36,037 [SOUND] Thanks everyone for joining us and asking great questions, 748 00:45:36,037 --> 00:45:41,624 Beth is asking a question that I can probably answer. 749 00:45:41,624 --> 00:45:47,063 Best says, treehouse tech degree or treehouse track. 750 00:45:47,063 --> 00:45:50,329 The tech degree is a lot closer to what you'd imagine a boot camp is like there's 751 00:45:50,329 --> 00:45:53,939 projects, there's a slack community, those projects are you get feedback on them and 752 00:45:53,939 --> 00:45:56,716 the whole goal is to get you ready for that first job whereas a track, 753 00:45:56,716 --> 00:45:59,067 does not have projects does not have a slack community. 754 00:45:59,067 --> 00:46:04,061 But there's a big price difference, 755 00:46:04,061 --> 00:46:08,899 so tech degree is 199 per month and 756 00:46:08,899 --> 00:46:13,737 courses is only $29 per month, so 757 00:46:13,737 --> 00:46:19,215 there's a big price difference on that. 758 00:46:19,215 --> 00:46:25,999 But we try to make tech degree drastically more affordable than a boot camp, 759 00:46:25,999 --> 00:46:30,354 so we're hoping that makes it more accessible. 760 00:46:30,354 --> 00:46:32,733 Okay, cool you posted those two links. 761 00:46:32,733 --> 00:46:35,569 >> And it looks like there's a question, is there a hiring preference for 762 00:46:35,569 --> 00:46:37,424 people who are self taught versus a boot camp? 763 00:46:37,424 --> 00:46:40,264 Again, some places will have a preference, 764 00:46:40,264 --> 00:46:45,571 like some places especially if it's more of a corporation or like an older company, 765 00:46:45,571 --> 00:46:50,655 they might be a little more traditional about and want some kind of certification 766 00:46:50,655 --> 00:46:55,022 that they can point to so that they can say, okay, they know things. 767 00:46:55,022 --> 00:46:59,918 I know for us a big part of it is just do you have examples of work 768 00:46:59,918 --> 00:47:03,281 you've done before, is a big part of it. 769 00:47:03,281 --> 00:47:06,731 So maybe it's a website about how awesome your dog is, 770 00:47:06,731 --> 00:47:10,781 or maybe you did some volunteer, website work for your church or 771 00:47:10,781 --> 00:47:15,146 your uncle's business, like it really doesn't matter what it is. 772 00:47:15,146 --> 00:47:19,979 Maybe it wasn't even, quote unquote real maybe you just built like a tic tac 773 00:47:19,979 --> 00:47:22,633 toe game, and you put the code on GitHub. 774 00:47:22,633 --> 00:47:27,699 If you didn't attend a boot camp, even if you did, like, I know speaking 775 00:47:27,699 --> 00:47:32,792 from experience, we really look for examples of work that you've done. 776 00:47:32,792 --> 00:47:37,691 So, anything you can put on GitHub to show that you've written code that's super 777 00:47:37,691 --> 00:47:38,336 helpful. 778 00:47:38,336 --> 00:47:39,197 >> Amen. 779 00:47:39,197 --> 00:47:42,558 Yeah, I agree with that, we always encourage folks and 780 00:47:42,558 --> 00:47:47,780 I think you said this already, but to pick something that they're passionate about, 781 00:47:47,780 --> 00:47:52,215 build a project around that, almost that first one could be just donating 782 00:47:52,215 --> 00:47:56,032 your time to your favorite nonprofit building them a project. 783 00:47:56,032 --> 00:47:59,615 Then after that, you then could even start charging for 784 00:47:59,615 --> 00:48:04,508 your first simple App for a local business so those are all great ideas here. 785 00:48:04,508 --> 00:48:09,106 I appreciate you also sharing just the facts around computer science jobs and 786 00:48:09,106 --> 00:48:14,071 computer science graduates and the need, for more amazing folks in the industry. 787 00:48:14,071 --> 00:48:19,647 So I think we can call it a day there, I wanna to thank you so much, Hillary for 788 00:48:19,647 --> 00:48:24,985 making time to do this, you did a good job managing your cat, I thought. 789 00:48:24,985 --> 00:48:28,593 >> Yeah, I mean, I could have locked them up but then they'd cry the whole time, 790 00:48:28,593 --> 00:48:29,193 >> Yeah. 791 00:48:29,193 --> 00:48:30,547 >> Pandemic life doesn't do. 792 00:48:30,547 --> 00:48:32,920 >> That doesn't work, but thank you so much for 793 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,294 spending your time I really appreciate it for 794 00:48:35,294 --> 00:48:39,680 all of you attending we really appreciate your time and, and thank you for coming. 795 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:45,228 Make sure to take part in networking, It's a really valuable way to meet new people, 796 00:48:45,228 --> 00:48:48,478 you just click on the networking link on the left. 797 00:48:48,478 --> 00:48:51,689 It's a great thing to do during the pandemic, meet people and 798 00:48:51,689 --> 00:48:52,751 make connections. 799 00:48:52,751 --> 00:48:56,029 So Hilary, thanks again and we'll see you next time. 800 00:48:56,029 --> 00:48:57,000 >> Yeah, thanks for having me. 801 00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:58,040 >> Take care, bye.