1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,257 [MUSIC] 2 00:00:04,257 --> 00:00:06,674 Welcome, everybody! 3 00:00:06,674 --> 00:00:09,369 So excited to have you all here today. 4 00:00:09,369 --> 00:00:12,300 I am Ryan Carson, the founder of Treehouse. 5 00:00:12,300 --> 00:00:17,869 And I would like to welcome you to this new Guest Speaker Series, 6 00:00:17,869 --> 00:00:20,870 How to Land Your Dream Job. 7 00:00:20,870 --> 00:00:25,296 In this series we will talk with seasoned tech professionals about their 8 00:00:25,296 --> 00:00:28,135 journey that got them to where they are today. 9 00:00:28,135 --> 00:00:32,040 Through our conversations we will explore the idea of a dream job. 10 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:38,070 So you're able to set expectations, goals and aspirations to succeed. 11 00:00:38,070 --> 00:00:43,065 We hope this series helps you realize how important all professional experience is 12 00:00:43,065 --> 00:00:44,880 towards your goals. 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:50,134 Stay tuned, for after the interview, as there will be a networking hour for 14 00:00:50,134 --> 00:00:55,404 all attendees where you will get the chance to meet other folks in real time. 15 00:00:55,404 --> 00:01:02,004 I'm very happy happy to introduce Will Vasquez as this session's guest speaker. 16 00:01:02,004 --> 00:01:08,037 Will's a software developer at Tacit and an instructor at UCLA Coding Boot Camp. 17 00:01:08,037 --> 00:01:12,364 He made the shift from management to software development after 18 00:01:12,364 --> 00:01:15,659 graduating from a coding boot camp in 2015. 19 00:01:15,659 --> 00:01:21,420 He was inspired to make that change after founding a startup in Peru. 20 00:01:21,420 --> 00:01:25,990 Currently he holds a Master of Business Administration from 21 00:01:25,990 --> 00:01:28,768 Universidad Del Pacifico in Peru and 22 00:01:28,768 --> 00:01:34,153 a Bachelors of Science in Economics from Ramapo College of New Jersey. 23 00:01:34,153 --> 00:01:37,570 Will is a Messi-like soccer player, I want verification. 24 00:01:37,570 --> 00:01:38,536 >> [LAUGH] >> By the way, and 25 00:01:38,536 --> 00:01:42,660 the father with three-year-old, and has surprising cooking abilities. 26 00:01:42,660 --> 00:01:45,079 Welcome, Will. 27 00:01:45,079 --> 00:01:48,332 >> Thanks, Ryan, thank you very much for having me on your series. 28 00:01:48,332 --> 00:01:49,990 >> Yeah, it's good to have you here. 29 00:01:49,990 --> 00:01:52,932 Really appreciate your time. 30 00:01:52,932 --> 00:01:57,903 So, let's get started and get right into the questions. 31 00:01:57,903 --> 00:02:02,146 We know that a computer science degree isn't the only route to 32 00:02:02,146 --> 00:02:04,033 a meaningful tech career. 33 00:02:04,033 --> 00:02:08,655 I'd like to invite you to expand about your background and experience that led 34 00:02:08,655 --> 00:02:12,980 you to your role as a software developer and boot camp instructor. 35 00:02:12,980 --> 00:02:17,281 When did you first consider software engineering as a viable option? 36 00:02:17,281 --> 00:02:21,936 >> Sure, so I always had a love for technology. 37 00:02:21,936 --> 00:02:25,728 There was definitely a passion there. 38 00:02:25,728 --> 00:02:29,551 I did do my career in Economics cuz my parents gave me that choice between, 39 00:02:29,551 --> 00:02:31,787 studying economics they would pay for it. 40 00:02:31,787 --> 00:02:35,347 Or doing computer science at the time and I would have to fend for 41 00:02:35,347 --> 00:02:36,660 myself on that one. 42 00:02:36,660 --> 00:02:39,785 So I did go with the safe choice. 43 00:02:39,785 --> 00:02:43,404 Did economics, then I did a master's degree. 44 00:02:43,404 --> 00:02:46,365 I founded a startup, and at the startup I kinda had to wear a lot of hats, and 45 00:02:46,365 --> 00:02:48,820 one of them was trying to figure out how to launch the product. 46 00:02:48,820 --> 00:02:51,596 So I learned a little bit, self-taught. 47 00:02:51,596 --> 00:02:54,883 So self taught with couple of courses here and there, and 48 00:02:54,883 --> 00:02:57,974 that's where I saw that that's what I really liked. 49 00:02:57,974 --> 00:03:02,853 Started, didn't work out, sold it 2014, came back to the States, and 50 00:03:02,853 --> 00:03:05,271 that's where I went into a boot camp. 51 00:03:05,271 --> 00:03:09,730 Took a boot camp in, it was a records coding boot camp at the time, I believe. 52 00:03:10,850 --> 00:03:19,358 And from there, yeah, I did a 360-degree pivot into software development. 53 00:03:19,358 --> 00:03:24,003 One of the important things is trying to use kind of my previous skills 54 00:03:24,003 --> 00:03:25,535 through the startup. 55 00:03:25,535 --> 00:03:29,640 At the time I was working for, as I was taking the boot camp was part time. 56 00:03:29,640 --> 00:03:34,046 I was also working full-time, right? 57 00:03:34,046 --> 00:03:37,082 For them, and I was using my management skills there, 58 00:03:37,082 --> 00:03:40,830 I was working there as a supply chain management manager. 59 00:03:40,830 --> 00:03:44,134 So I use all those skills to be able to help you pivot towards 60 00:03:44,134 --> 00:03:45,163 development- >> So 61 00:03:45,163 --> 00:03:45,936 that- >> By the time- 62 00:03:45,936 --> 00:03:47,628 >> That boot camp, was it online or 63 00:03:47,628 --> 00:03:48,260 in person? 64 00:03:49,700 --> 00:03:50,439 That one was in person. 65 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:52,230 Got it, so how did you balance? 66 00:03:52,230 --> 00:03:57,088 I mean, that sounds like a lot of work, kind of balancing that job, 67 00:03:57,088 --> 00:04:00,431 being a family person and doing the boot camp. 68 00:04:00,431 --> 00:04:04,392 What was the typical day like for you when you were going through the boot camp? 69 00:04:04,392 --> 00:04:08,052 >> So the boot camp was three times a week, but of course you had homework for 70 00:04:08,052 --> 00:04:10,398 the other days that you didn't have classes. 71 00:04:10,398 --> 00:04:12,430 One of the things was actually scheduling. 72 00:04:12,430 --> 00:04:17,420 One of the things I've gotten a little bit better was trying to schedule your time, 73 00:04:17,420 --> 00:04:20,198 just to focus on what you want to concentrate, 74 00:04:20,198 --> 00:04:22,870 when you want to get done during the day. 75 00:04:22,870 --> 00:04:27,721 So mostly your 9 to 5, and then from there I would probably set like a fixed 76 00:04:27,721 --> 00:04:32,587 amount of time to be able to dedicate just do my homework or have class time. 77 00:04:32,587 --> 00:04:34,845 >> Got it, okay. 78 00:04:34,845 --> 00:04:38,865 So why don't you talk about what advice you could give for 79 00:04:38,865 --> 00:04:44,570 aspiring developers who are specifically transitioning sectors like you did? 80 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,448 >> So the first thing is, if you're doing a career change, 81 00:04:50,448 --> 00:04:55,342 everything that you've done up to that point has some value, right? 82 00:04:55,342 --> 00:04:57,862 It's you can't just, gonna throw it away. 83 00:04:57,862 --> 00:04:59,229 I know you're starting a new career, but 84 00:04:59,229 --> 00:05:00,955 that doesn't mean that you start on a blank canvas. 85 00:05:02,025 --> 00:05:03,743 So, if you're a teacher, 86 00:05:03,743 --> 00:05:08,679 you leverage that knowledge that you have from teaching, because if you wanna 87 00:05:08,679 --> 00:05:13,191 do there's a lot of companies that are trying in the education sector. 88 00:05:13,191 --> 00:05:17,393 Or, for example, I had somebody that since I'm now teaching at UCLA, 89 00:05:17,393 --> 00:05:21,020 I had a student that, for example, he was a cook. 90 00:05:21,020 --> 00:05:22,393 He was a chef. 91 00:05:22,393 --> 00:05:26,271 So using that, and then he ended up working in a startup that had to 92 00:05:26,271 --> 00:05:28,467 do with one of these ghost kitchens. 93 00:05:28,467 --> 00:05:32,063 But again, leveraging the knowledge that you have before to be able to help 94 00:05:32,063 --> 00:05:33,959 you kind of transition into the vault. 95 00:05:33,959 --> 00:05:35,230 >> Got it, okay. 96 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:41,684 So what suggestions do you have for formatting a resume as 97 00:05:41,684 --> 00:05:46,868 a new developer for someone who has no tech experience? 98 00:05:46,868 --> 00:05:48,400 >> So here's the depends how you're going. 99 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,261 So the, resume is gonna be tailored of how you're gonna apply, right? 100 00:05:52,261 --> 00:05:56,047 So if you are gonna try that kind of shotgun approach, 101 00:05:56,047 --> 00:06:02,090 we just tried to shoot to one of these LinkedIns or Monsters or whatnot. 102 00:06:02,090 --> 00:06:05,697 There you probably want, you're gonna look at it at any job description that you 103 00:06:05,697 --> 00:06:08,999 have, and you're gonna want to try to load your, application, right? 104 00:06:08,999 --> 00:06:11,276 Many of the keywords as possible, right? 105 00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:15,150 So if you're looking at a entry level position for a junior front-end developer, 106 00:06:15,150 --> 00:06:18,710 you're probably gonna wanna load your resume with JavaScript. 107 00:06:18,710 --> 00:06:21,447 So your project has JavaScript and you use JavaScript here, right? 108 00:06:21,447 --> 00:06:25,908 So you wanna load it, because most of the time these systems LinkedIn, Monsters, 109 00:06:25,908 --> 00:06:27,834 they go through kind of a AI system. 110 00:06:27,834 --> 00:06:32,765 They'll just read your resume and just kind of rank you depending on how 111 00:06:32,765 --> 00:06:36,471 you score on the keywords that they're looking for. 112 00:06:36,471 --> 00:06:38,630 So that's one one way of looking at your resume. 113 00:06:38,630 --> 00:06:42,667 Now, if you're looking at your resume view, and this is probably the best way 114 00:06:42,667 --> 00:06:46,519 you can have your best shot is networking, and if you are able to reach out to 115 00:06:46,519 --> 00:06:49,913 an actual person, then you probably want to tailor your resume. 116 00:06:49,913 --> 00:06:52,723 If you're making this transition, you want to highlight your project, 117 00:06:52,723 --> 00:06:54,005 you want to highlight that yeah. 118 00:06:54,005 --> 00:06:58,703 You might not have the working experience cuz you just came out of learning and 119 00:06:58,703 --> 00:07:00,880 self thought or Bootcamp, right? 120 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,813 So you don't have the experience in the workforce. 121 00:07:04,813 --> 00:07:09,657 But in the case of development, you can show that you have experienced by doing, 122 00:07:09,657 --> 00:07:10,165 right? 123 00:07:10,165 --> 00:07:13,691 I mean, I think this is one of the big advantage compared to other 124 00:07:13,691 --> 00:07:14,747 careers, right? 125 00:07:14,747 --> 00:07:17,330 Cuz an accountant can say that he's done some accounting, but 126 00:07:17,330 --> 00:07:20,160 there's really harder way to prove that, right? 127 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,452 But in case of our careers, in case of development, you can be a great 128 00:07:24,452 --> 00:07:29,046 developer if you show that you've been able to work on projects, right? 129 00:07:29,046 --> 00:07:34,300 So links to your repositories, links to your work, to your projects. 130 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:39,016 One of the biggest things that I've seen is you don't have to have 20 projects. 131 00:07:39,016 --> 00:07:41,970 You can have two or three projects, but you got to finish the projects. 132 00:07:41,970 --> 00:07:46,288 I've seen a lot of resumes where they'll put a couple of projects on there but 133 00:07:46,288 --> 00:07:47,695 they're not complete. 134 00:07:47,695 --> 00:07:49,700 They're not complete, and they're halfway done. 135 00:07:50,700 --> 00:07:52,241 And that unluckily says a lot, right? 136 00:07:52,241 --> 00:07:57,907 That unluckily says, it says a lot, it says a lot more than they needed. 137 00:07:57,907 --> 00:08:00,609 >> So how if you've got two or three great projects, and 138 00:08:00,609 --> 00:08:03,971 this is one of the reasons we focus on projects in the tech degree and 139 00:08:03,971 --> 00:08:07,230 why you focus on projects, I'm sure you're coding boot camp. 140 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:14,737 Once you've built that and shipped it, how important is it for 141 00:08:14,737 --> 00:08:19,969 it to live live on the web, on a real URL and to be working? 142 00:08:19,969 --> 00:08:23,750 Is that super important or is it more about the link to the repo, or is it both? 143 00:08:26,150 --> 00:08:30,470 >> Well, so I think it's more about if you're sharing your resume, like a printed 144 00:08:30,470 --> 00:08:34,613 resume, it's gonna be really hard for somebody to type a really long break. 145 00:08:34,613 --> 00:08:39,282 If you go to one, if you deploy this to Heroku or some free service, it's gonna be 146 00:08:39,282 --> 00:08:44,430 really hard to, 200-long URL, it's gonna be really hard for the presenter. 147 00:08:44,430 --> 00:08:49,852 So I would recommend I do like a Bitly, which will just kind of shorten your URL. 148 00:08:49,852 --> 00:08:54,715 Ideally if you can, you could apply it to an actual domain that, again, 149 00:08:54,715 --> 00:08:58,400 it's always those little things that add up, right? 150 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:03,559 Cuz it keeps saying this person is, you don't say that you are detail-oriented. 151 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,121 You are actually showing with these little things that you actually 152 00:09:07,121 --> 00:09:09,130 are detail-oriented, right? 153 00:09:09,130 --> 00:09:11,810 >> Yep, that's a really good point. 154 00:09:11,810 --> 00:09:14,379 That's almost like a filter, 155 00:09:14,379 --> 00:09:20,054 That person that does the first pass in your resume is gonna be checking. 156 00:09:20,054 --> 00:09:25,195 And I would say I agree with that, that's the first thing to do. 157 00:09:25,195 --> 00:09:27,630 You're gonna either click it or type it. 158 00:09:27,630 --> 00:09:28,555 It has to be short. 159 00:09:28,555 --> 00:09:30,922 Ideally, it's a professional-looking URL. 160 00:09:30,922 --> 00:09:34,762 I mean, you can purchase a low-cost domain name for 161 00:09:34,762 --> 00:09:40,355 very little money as long as it's a word or a group of words that makes sense. 162 00:09:40,355 --> 00:09:46,906 It can be a.io, it can be a dot whatever, and putting your project there says a lot. 163 00:09:46,906 --> 00:09:50,606 That it works and that, so folks who are developers, 164 00:09:50,606 --> 00:09:54,071 they're not gonna be necessarily UX designers. 165 00:09:54,071 --> 00:09:59,460 So how do you deal with making the app look great part of this 166 00:10:01,210 --> 00:10:04,808 Yeah, I do agree, so I'm really bad at design. 167 00:10:04,808 --> 00:10:08,569 My stuff looks horrendous, right? 168 00:10:08,569 --> 00:10:12,146 You gotta accept it, first place, you gotta look at your things and be like, 169 00:10:12,146 --> 00:10:13,424 yeah, this is [INAUDIBLE]. 170 00:10:13,424 --> 00:10:17,140 ,One way that I try to circumvent that one way that I try to 171 00:10:17,140 --> 00:10:20,322 find a difference is sometimes finding themes. 172 00:10:20,322 --> 00:10:22,314 There's nothing wrong with finding themes. 173 00:10:22,314 --> 00:10:25,111 You're doing something that's a form or something like that, 174 00:10:25,111 --> 00:10:30,086 there's, Oof the top oft my head I don't remember any of these websites, but 175 00:10:30,086 --> 00:10:32,074 you can find one of these theme's websites. 176 00:10:32,074 --> 00:10:33,550 I guy that would do it for free. 177 00:10:33,550 --> 00:10:37,430 Sometimes they cost a little bit of money, 10 bucks, 12 bucks. 178 00:10:37,430 --> 00:10:41,680 Buy a theme cuz that's what I do, cuz, again, I am not good at design, right? 179 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:45,230 But it is important, especially when you're kind of on a job hunt. 180 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,420 Kind of like food, right? 181 00:10:48,420 --> 00:10:51,419 Food can taste amazing, but if it doesn't look presentable, 182 00:10:51,419 --> 00:10:53,861 you kind of have that hesitation to try it, right? 183 00:10:53,861 --> 00:10:55,106 Yeah, that's no good, yep. 184 00:10:55,106 --> 00:10:55,998 >> Yeah. 185 00:10:55,998 --> 00:10:56,831 >> I hear you. 186 00:10:56,831 --> 00:11:02,264 So, yeah, I would definitely think about making it look at least presentable. 187 00:11:02,264 --> 00:11:06,603 Or, again, you can also use some of these other tools like Bootstrap. 188 00:11:06,603 --> 00:11:09,190 >> [CROSSTALK] >> Yeah, and 189 00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:10,590 heavy CSS frameworks, exactly. 190 00:11:10,590 --> 00:11:15,125 >> Yeah, I think what Will is saying and I would echo to all of you joining us is 191 00:11:15,125 --> 00:11:19,166 that, just imagine you're walking in the door to an interview. 192 00:11:19,166 --> 00:11:21,880 You would care about how you looked. 193 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,040 You would brush your teeth. 194 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,384 You would kind of do these things and it's very similar. 195 00:11:26,384 --> 00:11:31,614 The first impression that someone's gonna have of your work, 196 00:11:31,614 --> 00:11:37,052 you just need to make it look like you thought about that, right? 197 00:11:37,052 --> 00:11:39,980 So, Will, do you think, we'll go a little off script here. 198 00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:46,732 Walk us through just step by step, how does someone get a job? 199 00:11:46,732 --> 00:11:51,339 So you've completed your tech degree or you've completed your boot camp, but 200 00:11:51,339 --> 00:11:53,550 you don't have any paid experience. 201 00:11:53,550 --> 00:11:55,785 Just walk someone through tactically step by step, 202 00:11:55,785 --> 00:11:58,800 how they're gonna get those interviews and then land that first job. 203 00:12:00,590 --> 00:12:02,850 >> Yeah, so the first thing, I'm a big data guy. 204 00:12:02,850 --> 00:12:05,420 So the first thing is you want to kind of have some type of structure. 205 00:12:05,420 --> 00:12:08,290 So think of how you're gonna apply to the process. 206 00:12:08,290 --> 00:12:13,122 Describing the simple Google sheets or Excel spreadsheet and kind of being like, 207 00:12:13,122 --> 00:12:15,587 where you've applied, what happened. 208 00:12:15,587 --> 00:12:18,377 And then just keeping track of the results, because one of the things is 209 00:12:18,377 --> 00:12:21,648 you want to learn through the process, right, especially if you get interviews. 210 00:12:21,648 --> 00:12:22,732 If you don't get anything, well, 211 00:12:22,732 --> 00:12:24,455 you can keep trying to tweak until you get interviews. 212 00:12:24,455 --> 00:12:27,538 But if you get interviews and you want to learn from the things that you didn't 213 00:12:27,538 --> 00:12:30,535 answer, right, so you want to keep some some way of track of information. 214 00:12:31,935 --> 00:12:35,410 So the first thing is working on your resume, right? 215 00:12:35,410 --> 00:12:36,855 I think, like I said, I would have two resumes. 216 00:12:36,855 --> 00:12:42,444 One that you're gonna kind of shoot out to some of these sites like the Monsters and 217 00:12:42,444 --> 00:12:43,016 those. 218 00:12:43,016 --> 00:12:46,345 And then one that you'll be able to send to network, right? 219 00:12:46,345 --> 00:12:48,088 So that's just the first few, you have to have that. 220 00:12:48,088 --> 00:12:51,082 Have projects, of course, these things can be done in parallel, right? 221 00:12:51,082 --> 00:12:54,816 You want to have your projects, like we talked about, 222 00:12:54,816 --> 00:12:57,584 we wanna have them working, deployed. 223 00:12:57,584 --> 00:13:00,880 One thing that a lot of people forget is go to the GitHub repositories. 224 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,980 We are developers, so some people will check and know about GitHub. 225 00:13:03,980 --> 00:13:05,802 So yes, your page can look really nice, but 226 00:13:05,802 --> 00:13:08,060 some people will go to the repo to see the code. 227 00:13:08,060 --> 00:13:13,389 So adding comments to your code, making the readme, adding some information. 228 00:13:13,389 --> 00:13:15,565 Not everybody's gonna sign up to your account, so 229 00:13:15,565 --> 00:13:16,940 just put a dummy account there. 230 00:13:16,940 --> 00:13:20,126 So people just when they look at your site, they can try it out and 231 00:13:20,126 --> 00:13:21,375 they have a dummy login. 232 00:13:21,375 --> 00:13:23,620 So this is more maintenance, right, 233 00:13:23,620 --> 00:13:28,260 this is first thing before you kind of jump into the actually looking for a job. 234 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,240 The next process would be the search. 235 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,077 I would apply to any jobs if you're a junior developer, right? 236 00:13:35,077 --> 00:13:38,138 If you're a junior developer going to try to get your first job, 237 00:13:38,138 --> 00:13:40,020 anything below two years is free game. 238 00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:45,838 A lot of companies have an idea of what they want, but they put two years and 239 00:13:45,838 --> 00:13:48,507 two years is a good cut off to apply to a job. 240 00:13:48,507 --> 00:13:50,642 >> If it says two years do you go [INAUDIBLE] less than two? 241 00:13:50,642 --> 00:13:53,398 >> Yes, two year and below. 242 00:13:53,398 --> 00:13:54,090 >> Yeah. 243 00:13:54,090 --> 00:13:57,434 >> Yeah, less than equal to two years. 244 00:13:57,434 --> 00:14:00,875 Yeah, definitely, you have a really good shot there. 245 00:14:00,875 --> 00:14:04,510 Above two years may be a little bit harder. 246 00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:06,598 >> Okay. >> Keyword search, right, 247 00:14:06,598 --> 00:14:08,643 if you're looking at LinkedIn, 248 00:14:08,643 --> 00:14:12,890 they have this keyword option that you can kind of pick out keywords. 249 00:14:12,890 --> 00:14:16,470 So you wanna look for front end developer, separate together. 250 00:14:16,470 --> 00:14:20,017 Cuz again, a lot of people load these sites and they won't write front end, 251 00:14:20,017 --> 00:14:21,972 separate, they'll write it together. 252 00:14:21,972 --> 00:14:23,640 They'll write it with a dash. 253 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,763 So try a lot of combinations of these because you'll probably get 254 00:14:26,763 --> 00:14:27,800 different results. 255 00:14:29,470 --> 00:14:33,916 So now you have your pregame, kinda have your searches. 256 00:14:33,916 --> 00:14:37,280 So you have the shotgun style, which is just applying to all of them, 257 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,140 which is kinda spraying and praying. 258 00:14:39,140 --> 00:14:43,271 >> So how many do you need to have on your list to start the process? 259 00:14:43,271 --> 00:14:43,996 How many companies? 260 00:14:45,869 --> 00:14:48,161 >> Well, so if you're doing spraying and praying, 261 00:14:48,161 --> 00:14:50,354 that's kind of like just praying for the best. 262 00:14:50,354 --> 00:14:53,987 But if you are, the next would be what are your ideal companies, 263 00:14:53,987 --> 00:14:56,083 right, or ideal type of companies? 264 00:14:56,083 --> 00:15:00,013 And there are the ones where you're going to probably put your most effort. 265 00:15:00,013 --> 00:15:03,941 And there you wanna research the company, 266 00:15:03,941 --> 00:15:09,845 research if you can find the developers, if you can find leads. 267 00:15:09,845 --> 00:15:14,211 And I've done this, and it does work, not with everybody, but it does work. 268 00:15:14,211 --> 00:15:16,412 Cold emailing them, right? 269 00:15:16,412 --> 00:15:20,617 But just not cold emailing them like here's my job, but 270 00:15:20,617 --> 00:15:24,140 you gotta kinda sketch out a good email. 271 00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:26,818 Why do you like the company? 272 00:15:26,818 --> 00:15:29,929 Why do you like the company, why do you think you're a good fit, right? 273 00:15:29,929 --> 00:15:33,580 And if you have some similar product or some similar projects of that company, 274 00:15:33,580 --> 00:15:36,344 that's a great place to show it there and be like, listen, 275 00:15:36,344 --> 00:15:37,640 this is what I did, right? 276 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,730 That's a great way of kind of getting your foot in the door. 277 00:15:41,730 --> 00:15:44,436 >> Got it. >> And the last one is network. 278 00:15:44,436 --> 00:15:48,979 >> Okay, >> The way that I've been able to kind of 279 00:15:48,979 --> 00:15:52,681 go through the process has been networking. 280 00:15:52,681 --> 00:15:56,605 >> Got it, how do you network during COVID? 281 00:15:56,605 --> 00:16:00,267 >> Yeah, so these events are great, right? 282 00:16:00,267 --> 00:16:03,560 I mean, I always try to look at the bright side of things, right? 283 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,663 A lot of events now have gone online, right? 284 00:16:05,663 --> 00:16:09,454 Before you would have to travel to these events and book a hotel, book a flight, 285 00:16:09,454 --> 00:16:12,080 plus the cost of the event itself. 286 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,415 Now with COVID, I think all of them have gone online. 287 00:16:14,415 --> 00:16:14,915 >> Yeah. 288 00:16:16,180 --> 00:16:22,834 >> So it's a great opportunity to kind of join a lot of these chats. 289 00:16:22,834 --> 00:16:25,023 There's a lot of Slack channels open. 290 00:16:25,023 --> 00:16:27,042 And try to participate. 291 00:16:27,042 --> 00:16:31,060 Try to put as much information out there as you can. 292 00:16:31,060 --> 00:16:35,253 One of the good things about the development community is that it's very 293 00:16:35,253 --> 00:16:37,873 open, and that's always looking for help. 294 00:16:37,873 --> 00:16:41,103 It's always looking for a lot of people to contribute. 295 00:16:41,103 --> 00:16:44,281 So contribute, and it can be small things. 296 00:16:44,281 --> 00:16:45,623 It can be very small things, but 297 00:16:45,623 --> 00:16:48,071 just trying to put yourself out there as much as possible. 298 00:16:48,071 --> 00:16:51,987 >> Got it, so find something that you're passionate about and 299 00:16:51,987 --> 00:16:53,610 try to contribute to it. 300 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:57,674 A project or a movement or anything. 301 00:16:57,674 --> 00:17:01,012 >> Yeah, and one last thing is, so again, going back to that experience, 302 00:17:01,012 --> 00:17:05,260 which is always hard to get that first job, once you get that first job. 303 00:17:05,260 --> 00:17:09,177 So, I had a couple friends who had a restaurant, right, 304 00:17:09,177 --> 00:17:11,062 with everything going on. 305 00:17:11,062 --> 00:17:13,360 They had to close, they didn't have any presence online. 306 00:17:13,360 --> 00:17:14,559 So they were psyched for, 307 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:17,837 we had a couple of students from the boot camp do a couple of their sites. 308 00:17:17,837 --> 00:17:20,500 Very simple, just a menu online that looks presentable. 309 00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:24,134 But that's a lot for them because from nothing to that, 310 00:17:24,134 --> 00:17:26,250 that is a huge step forward. 311 00:17:26,250 --> 00:17:29,511 So that right there you have an actual product that you can actually show. 312 00:17:29,511 --> 00:17:31,546 >> Right. >> So trying to get as much experience as 313 00:17:31,546 --> 00:17:35,223 you can under the wings is gonna make you- >> Gonna make you successful. 314 00:17:35,223 --> 00:17:40,516 So how long do people need to mentally 315 00:17:40,516 --> 00:17:46,165 prepare to go through this job search? 316 00:17:46,165 --> 00:17:51,635 Help set expectations here so people don't quit too early. 317 00:17:51,635 --> 00:17:53,807 >> [COUGH] So first thing is, well, all right, 318 00:17:53,807 --> 00:17:57,410 let's go pre-COVID because I had a couple of good numbers pre-COVID. 319 00:17:57,410 --> 00:18:00,936 I'm still trying to adjust in COVID because we're still in this whole 320 00:18:00,936 --> 00:18:02,070 pandemic. 321 00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:07,180 So pre-COVID, I said you can't expect that anything below 90 days, is usually scammy, 322 00:18:07,180 --> 00:18:11,634 not real interviews, or really bad things that they'll just pick anybody up and 323 00:18:11,634 --> 00:18:13,380 pay them at a really low wage. 324 00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:15,504 I mean, I've seen that, I've gone through that. 325 00:18:15,504 --> 00:18:18,514 So anything below 90 days doesn't seem real. 326 00:18:18,514 --> 00:18:24,004 If you follow the process, apply and go through this whole process of application, 327 00:18:24,004 --> 00:18:28,640 I think you'll start seeing some results after about 90 days. 328 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,822 Now it also does depend sometimes, timing, right? 329 00:18:31,822 --> 00:18:33,930 December is a very dead month. 330 00:18:33,930 --> 00:18:37,128 So we're ready in October, so we're thinking 90 days from now. 331 00:18:37,128 --> 00:18:38,092 We're looking to be in December. 332 00:18:38,092 --> 00:18:39,070 >> Yeah. 333 00:18:39,070 --> 00:18:40,340 >> All right, end of December. 334 00:18:40,340 --> 00:18:42,630 That's a dead month, right, like the end of December. 335 00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:44,457 The first couple of weeks of January is a dead month, so 336 00:18:44,457 --> 00:18:45,585 you gotta count for that as well. 337 00:18:45,585 --> 00:18:51,189 >> Got it, and is this after you've completed your tech degree or 338 00:18:51,189 --> 00:18:56,172 boot camp, full time, 90 days of applying for jobs? 339 00:18:56,172 --> 00:18:58,625 Or is this just a couple hours a day? 340 00:18:58,625 --> 00:19:03,228 Help set expectations about the amount of work during that 90 days? 341 00:19:03,228 --> 00:19:06,164 >> Well, so looking for a job is a job, right? 342 00:19:06,164 --> 00:19:09,893 All, right so you- >> That's a good way to put it. 343 00:19:09,893 --> 00:19:14,124 >> I mean, cuz that's what you want is you want a job out of it. 344 00:19:14,124 --> 00:19:16,524 It's gonna take effort because you're probably working on your portfolio, 345 00:19:16,524 --> 00:19:17,590 probably working on your resume. 346 00:19:17,590 --> 00:19:20,415 You're probably working on crafting emails. 347 00:19:20,415 --> 00:19:22,780 I personally am not a big fan of cover letters. 348 00:19:22,780 --> 00:19:23,754 It works for some people. 349 00:19:23,754 --> 00:19:28,048 For me it's never worked, maybe I'm not good at writing cover letters. 350 00:19:28,048 --> 00:19:32,900 But making a good email has worked for me, networking has worked for me. 351 00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:36,300 These things that we've talked about have worked for me. 352 00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:40,052 So I would set yourself, again, I'm really big in trying to schedule. 353 00:19:40,052 --> 00:19:44,460 So I would schedule myself a good chunk of your day if your objective is to 354 00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:45,128 get a job. 355 00:19:45,128 --> 00:19:49,208 Set yourself a nine to five, literally, like I said, getting a job is a job. 356 00:19:49,208 --> 00:19:54,133 So set yourself a nine to five, and in that time, try to push the truck forward. 357 00:19:54,133 --> 00:19:57,290 Try to push everything forward to get that job. 358 00:19:57,290 --> 00:19:57,930 >> I love it. 359 00:19:57,930 --> 00:20:00,550 Gosh, that's great advice. 360 00:20:00,550 --> 00:20:04,273 So I've got a couple more questions to get through. 361 00:20:04,273 --> 00:20:06,393 And then we're already getting some great questions. 362 00:20:06,393 --> 00:20:10,776 Just so you know in the audience, we are monitoring your questions and 363 00:20:10,776 --> 00:20:13,837 I'll be asking all those in about 20 minutes. 364 00:20:13,837 --> 00:20:21,230 So keep those questions coming and my team will write those down and send them to me. 365 00:20:21,230 --> 00:20:26,152 All right, so next question I have for you is you have a lot of experience 366 00:20:26,152 --> 00:20:30,850 among various companies as an engineer or instructor. 367 00:20:30,850 --> 00:20:33,190 How have you leveraged networking to land these roles? 368 00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:40,282 You talked about networking, but what specific tips can you give? 369 00:20:40,282 --> 00:20:43,810 So you're at an online conference, great, what do you do? 370 00:20:43,810 --> 00:20:46,040 How do you actually network? 371 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,613 >> Yeah, so it depends on the events. 372 00:20:48,613 --> 00:20:50,023 So there's been a movement, right? 373 00:20:50,023 --> 00:20:51,081 Not all events are doing this. 374 00:20:51,081 --> 00:20:55,202 But I think some events have this kinda like speed dating opportunity. 375 00:20:55,202 --> 00:20:58,888 That's really good cuz it kinda helps give the opportunity to at least talk to 376 00:20:58,888 --> 00:21:00,970 somebody for x amount of time, right? 377 00:21:00,970 --> 00:21:04,903 So I think the best way of networking is how do you make yourself available and 378 00:21:04,903 --> 00:21:08,220 how do you make yourself useful to the other person? 379 00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:10,450 I think that's the rule of networking, right? 380 00:21:10,450 --> 00:21:13,530 It's not so much what you could get out, but it's usually what you can give. 381 00:21:13,530 --> 00:21:16,544 And in that process of giving, you end up meeting, like I said, right, somebody or 382 00:21:16,544 --> 00:21:19,346 even a small restaurant or an owner of a small restaurant that needs somebody to 383 00:21:19,346 --> 00:21:20,594 help them out with their website. 384 00:21:20,594 --> 00:21:27,180 And the fact that you can give may lead to more referral and more jobs. 385 00:21:27,180 --> 00:21:31,045 So I would approach any networking opportunity as what can I give 386 00:21:31,045 --> 00:21:33,200 to the person that I'm talking to? 387 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:34,140 What is that person doing? 388 00:21:34,140 --> 00:21:36,420 How can I help in that whatever field they're doing? 389 00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:38,470 And that just helps. 390 00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:41,242 So just going with that mindset. 391 00:21:41,242 --> 00:21:44,030 Cuz we go with the mindset of what am I gonna get, right? 392 00:21:44,030 --> 00:21:45,941 It's normal, it's okay. 393 00:21:45,941 --> 00:21:46,930 But we tend to go with that mindset. 394 00:21:46,930 --> 00:21:48,880 So just switching our mindset can take us a long way. 395 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:55,290 >> Got it, so can you give anybody some specific tactics. 396 00:21:55,290 --> 00:21:58,070 So say you're in one of these speed dating scenarios, and 397 00:21:58,070 --> 00:22:00,750 everybody here is gonna have an opportunity to do this. 398 00:22:00,750 --> 00:22:04,529 So hopping allows networking when you get these. 399 00:22:04,529 --> 00:22:10,111 I think they're three-minute networking sessions where it's a video call. 400 00:22:10,111 --> 00:22:12,618 Give folks some kinda opening lines or 401 00:22:12,618 --> 00:22:17,484 some ways that they can make those networking sessions more successful. 402 00:22:20,029 --> 00:22:26,410 >> So craft out a 32nd elevator pitch of yourself, right? 403 00:22:26,410 --> 00:22:27,543 So in 30 seconds, and 404 00:22:27,543 --> 00:22:31,070 then close it to 30 seconds, cuz like you said, this is three minutes. 405 00:22:31,070 --> 00:22:35,545 So 30 seconds gives you enough time to present yourself, 406 00:22:35,545 --> 00:22:41,015 say who you are, what you do, what you're looking for, 30 seconds. 407 00:22:41,015 --> 00:22:44,493 Try to, especially at these events, if you can have, again, a Bitly or 408 00:22:44,493 --> 00:22:46,730 any way of sharing your information quickly. 409 00:22:46,730 --> 00:22:50,289 I know that people say, yeah, add me on LinkedIn, but that sometimes works, but 410 00:22:50,289 --> 00:22:51,230 it tends to get lost. 411 00:22:51,230 --> 00:22:53,980 So keeping your things as small as possible. 412 00:22:53,980 --> 00:22:56,201 If you can find yourself a URL that's really small, 413 00:22:56,201 --> 00:22:58,080 then you can share it with the other person. 414 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,500 Will@x.com, boom, you probably know that. 415 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:04,621 You can probably write that down and 416 00:23:04,621 --> 00:23:09,414 we can keep talking and the conversation is positive. 417 00:23:09,414 --> 00:23:13,375 Listen, right, so ask questions. 418 00:23:13,375 --> 00:23:16,365 You wanna listen to the other person, give the other persons also. 419 00:23:16,365 --> 00:23:21,359 And I know that some people tend to be shy, right? 420 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,476 I'm not so shy sometimes in networking events. 421 00:23:23,476 --> 00:23:27,824 So just trying to tell me a little bit about yourself, and 422 00:23:27,824 --> 00:23:30,639 actually listening is pretty good. 423 00:23:30,639 --> 00:23:31,890 >> I love that, those are great tips. 424 00:23:33,010 --> 00:23:37,420 Will pointed out something I think that's important, a lot of us are introverts or 425 00:23:37,420 --> 00:23:39,253 feel intimidated by networking. 426 00:23:39,253 --> 00:23:41,173 I'm actually an introvert. 427 00:23:41,173 --> 00:23:45,900 The thought of a room of people that I don't know terrifies me. 428 00:23:47,260 --> 00:23:52,270 And this secret is that actually good networkers don't do most of the talking, 429 00:23:52,270 --> 00:23:52,804 right? 430 00:23:52,804 --> 00:23:54,030 So it's mostly listening. 431 00:23:55,470 --> 00:24:00,268 So if everyone listening, you can do something really simple, like start 432 00:24:00,268 --> 00:24:05,003 with Will's super fast 30-second, hey, just a little bit about me. 433 00:24:05,003 --> 00:24:08,328 And then immediately, you can launch into what's something that you're 434 00:24:08,328 --> 00:24:11,880 really passionate about right now or you're really excited about, right? 435 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:17,430 Just kinda let that person, and it could be garbage collection, right? 436 00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:20,537 It doesn't really matter, but then you just say, wow, 437 00:24:20,537 --> 00:24:23,010 garbage collection, tell me more, right? 438 00:24:23,010 --> 00:24:27,349 So you just get the other person talking, and then they'll end up, that'll 439 00:24:27,349 --> 00:24:32,120 be a successful conversation and they'll wanna keep connecting with you, right? 440 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:36,810 So I would encourage everybody to not view 441 00:24:36,810 --> 00:24:41,768 that initial networking chat as you needing 442 00:24:41,768 --> 00:24:46,459 to get them to offer you a job or anything. 443 00:24:46,459 --> 00:24:50,241 You're basically selling another meeting, right, another chat. 444 00:24:50,241 --> 00:24:52,660 Like, hey, do you mind if I email you some time? 445 00:24:52,660 --> 00:24:55,130 Sure, yeah, okay, what's your email? 446 00:24:55,130 --> 00:25:00,163 So you kind of approach it as just getting them to kinda smile, like you in step one. 447 00:25:00,163 --> 00:25:02,490 And then after that, you can go further. 448 00:25:02,490 --> 00:25:05,540 So I'm actually gonna post. 449 00:25:05,540 --> 00:25:08,000 There's something called mirroring, and I talked about this a lot. 450 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,839 Mirroring is a very effective way to increase someone's 451 00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:17,889 liking of you and the effectiveness of that conversation. 452 00:25:17,889 --> 00:25:20,571 And it sounds creepy, but it's not, it's just kind of- 453 00:25:20,571 --> 00:25:21,352 >> [LAUGH] 454 00:25:21,352 --> 00:25:23,503 >> Fun to put that on the chat. 455 00:25:23,503 --> 00:25:28,462 Okay, so got some more questions for you, all right. 456 00:25:31,789 --> 00:25:35,200 We talked about formatting the resume a little bit. 457 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,742 Why don't you share a little bit more specifics on what are the sections you 458 00:25:39,742 --> 00:25:43,580 think are important in that resume for first time developers? 459 00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:49,920 >> So I think the first part of your resume is your contact information. 460 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,591 Do not put your picture. 461 00:25:52,591 --> 00:25:54,585 In South America, it's really common for people to put their picture. 462 00:25:54,585 --> 00:25:58,830 I do not know why, but just provide your contact information. 463 00:25:58,830 --> 00:26:03,410 Don't put where you're from, specifically now that a lot of jobs are remote. 464 00:26:03,410 --> 00:26:05,089 If they need to know, they'll ask you. 465 00:26:05,089 --> 00:26:07,714 I think just your basic contact information, 466 00:26:07,714 --> 00:26:10,818 your portfolio link at the top, really easy to get to. 467 00:26:10,818 --> 00:26:13,150 Small summary about yourself. 468 00:26:13,150 --> 00:26:15,730 Small summary of what you're looking for, maybe just one or two sentence. 469 00:26:17,030 --> 00:26:18,975 I do like a section for skills. 470 00:26:18,975 --> 00:26:21,209 >> Okay. 471 00:26:21,209 --> 00:26:26,059 >> Usually, I tend to have it at the top, again, so you can really quickly see. 472 00:26:26,059 --> 00:26:29,210 Because either I would load it up with the skills that, again, 473 00:26:29,210 --> 00:26:31,180 we just talked about earlier, right? 474 00:26:31,180 --> 00:26:33,786 If it's trying to load them or highlight them or figure out a way to kinda show 475 00:26:33,786 --> 00:26:36,366 them a little bit brighter the skills that have to do with that particular. 476 00:26:36,366 --> 00:26:39,174 React if we're talking about job, Node, TypeScript, right, 477 00:26:39,174 --> 00:26:40,716 if we're talking about specific. 478 00:26:40,716 --> 00:26:44,899 >> A list of skills or, well, be more specific around that. 479 00:26:44,899 --> 00:26:48,575 >> I'll do bullet points, I'll do bullet points about them, right? 480 00:26:48,575 --> 00:26:50,520 >> Okay. 481 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,399 >> And then, again, if I'm trying to just apply to one of these systems that 482 00:26:54,399 --> 00:26:58,560 are just doing it online, I'll try to load a couple more keywords in there. 483 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,399 That's probably the section that I'm gonna try to look. 484 00:27:00,399 --> 00:27:01,431 >> Okay. 485 00:27:01,431 --> 00:27:05,935 >> Then I would do your work experience, if you have work experience. 486 00:27:05,935 --> 00:27:08,010 If you don't have work experience, your projects. 487 00:27:08,010 --> 00:27:08,630 >> Okay. 488 00:27:08,630 --> 00:27:10,661 >> Right, and then your projects, and 489 00:27:10,661 --> 00:27:14,276 then a little description of what your project is, what it does. 490 00:27:14,276 --> 00:27:16,120 I'd like to keep resumes to one page. 491 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,435 So we're gonna try to keep everything very simple there. 492 00:27:19,435 --> 00:27:22,674 And then in your projects, if they're hosted, 493 00:27:22,674 --> 00:27:26,260 the link, also the technology that you used. 494 00:27:26,260 --> 00:27:30,934 So if you did a project with JQuery and some CSS and some framework, 495 00:27:30,934 --> 00:27:33,281 put all that information there. 496 00:27:33,281 --> 00:27:37,800 Again, you wanna load it with as much technical detail as you can. 497 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,599 >> Okay, and- >> And then so- 498 00:27:40,599 --> 00:27:42,048 >> At least two to three good projects, 499 00:27:42,048 --> 00:27:43,600 right, that are finished? 500 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:44,550 >> Yeah. >> And polished. 501 00:27:44,550 --> 00:27:45,260 >> Finished. 502 00:27:45,260 --> 00:27:45,888 >> Okay. >> And 503 00:27:45,888 --> 00:27:48,520 then the keyword there would be finished. 504 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:49,232 >> Yeah. 505 00:27:49,232 --> 00:27:52,324 >> And polished ideally, yes, looking decent. 506 00:27:52,324 --> 00:27:53,130 >> Okay. 507 00:27:53,130 --> 00:27:57,677 >> And then at the end, any additional information that you think. 508 00:27:57,677 --> 00:28:00,467 So maybe something fun to talk about, a good talking point like a hobby or 509 00:28:00,467 --> 00:28:01,960 something like that. 510 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,160 Mostly, I usually add that to the resumes that I'm gonna hand or send to people. 511 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,189 So then when they see it, 512 00:28:07,189 --> 00:28:10,046 it does sometimes opens a talking point like, you like soccer. 513 00:28:10,046 --> 00:28:12,627 And you can kinda have an easier conversation from there with 514 00:28:12,627 --> 00:28:13,340 the interview. 515 00:28:13,340 --> 00:28:17,249 >> Got it, okay, perfect, and one page, right? 516 00:28:17,249 --> 00:28:18,224 >> I keep to one page, yeah. 517 00:28:18,224 --> 00:28:24,990 >> One page, and PDF, Google Doc, what is it? 518 00:28:24,990 --> 00:28:29,738 So if you keep it in PDF format, it's just easier to share. 519 00:28:29,738 --> 00:28:31,477 It doesn't move around. 520 00:28:31,477 --> 00:28:34,610 I think at this point, everybody has a PDF reader. 521 00:28:34,610 --> 00:28:37,455 And I think PDF is also smaller when you share it as well. 522 00:28:37,455 --> 00:28:40,005 >> Got it, so Will mentioned something and 523 00:28:40,005 --> 00:28:44,057 everyone attending want you to hear this, that is a great idea. 524 00:28:44,057 --> 00:28:51,175 He talked about doing a website for a local restaurant or something like that. 525 00:28:51,175 --> 00:28:54,387 We talked about this in our Treehouse Festival session. 526 00:28:54,387 --> 00:28:58,872 And my team, can you link to that video, where we specifically talked 527 00:28:58,872 --> 00:29:03,603 about job search tactics so all the students can go watch that after this? 528 00:29:03,603 --> 00:29:09,180 But what we talked about is essentially creating your experience. 529 00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:12,042 And the way to do that is, Will, 530 00:29:12,042 --> 00:29:16,813 what you said, you basically find an organization or 531 00:29:16,813 --> 00:29:21,382 a small business in your area that needs a website. 532 00:29:21,382 --> 00:29:26,293 And you go to them and say, hey, I'm getting to the industry, 533 00:29:26,293 --> 00:29:28,991 can I build you that site for free? 534 00:29:28,991 --> 00:29:34,280 At first, right, I'm just building my experience, and most people say yes. 535 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,840 And then you do that, and then you've got a real live project, right? 536 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:44,063 And then what you can do is find something you're passionate about, 537 00:29:44,063 --> 00:29:49,211 like a church, a synagogue, a mosque, a movement, a nonprofit. 538 00:29:49,211 --> 00:29:52,220 Anything you're passionate about, they probably need help. 539 00:29:52,220 --> 00:29:54,487 They probably need a better website. 540 00:29:54,487 --> 00:29:57,760 Go to them and say, hey, how can I help? 541 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,212 And then that second project could be something you're truly passionate about, 542 00:30:01,212 --> 00:30:04,480 which shows Proactivity, it shows integrity, 543 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,544 it shows all those other traits then players are gonna look for. 544 00:30:08,544 --> 00:30:14,362 So you could say I built a site for this nonprofit that I'm passionate about, 545 00:30:14,362 --> 00:30:19,480 the skills I used to do that, it kinda goes that next level. 546 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,040 And it essentially hides your lack of paid experience, right. 547 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,227 We're trying to show you're doing real things, like Will said, 548 00:30:27,227 --> 00:30:29,220 doing is what matters. 549 00:30:29,220 --> 00:30:32,840 But you don't have to have that, you don't have to have that. 550 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,550 I've been paid for two years as a front end developer. 551 00:30:36,550 --> 00:30:38,040 Experience, you can do that without that. 552 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,830 So I just want to kind of drop that in there. 553 00:30:39,830 --> 00:30:45,001 Do you want to kind of build on any of that, Will, or? 554 00:30:45,001 --> 00:30:46,899 >> Yeah, so I'll give you a couple of examples. 555 00:30:46,899 --> 00:30:49,276 When the Muslim ban happened a couple of years ago, 556 00:30:49,276 --> 00:30:51,440 I remember a couple of my students went to JFK. 557 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,357 They made a very simple site, jQuery, very basic, and 558 00:30:54,357 --> 00:30:58,331 all it was doing was allowing people to know if somebody I think was stopped or 559 00:30:58,331 --> 00:31:00,800 not in the airport or couldn't get out. 560 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,750 Pretty much a simple list. 561 00:31:02,750 --> 00:31:09,140 Very simple, but again, it's that idea of proactivity. 562 00:31:09,140 --> 00:31:13,170 Take a second also, it's good to do the reverse experience, right. 563 00:31:13,170 --> 00:31:15,630 So you look at it from the developer point of view, I'm looking for a job. 564 00:31:15,630 --> 00:31:17,463 Take a minute also and go to the business perspective and 565 00:31:17,463 --> 00:31:18,990 look at it from the business side. 566 00:31:18,990 --> 00:31:20,130 Who would I want to hire? 567 00:31:20,130 --> 00:31:22,300 Ask yourself that question, would I want to hire myself? 568 00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:24,462 What do I need to do or what does that person need to do for 569 00:31:24,462 --> 00:31:26,810 that person to become hireable, right? 570 00:31:26,810 --> 00:31:29,975 So not only skills, right, which you can pick up and a lot of places are okay with 571 00:31:29,975 --> 00:31:33,910 you not knowing because most likely you're gonna have to pick up some new technology. 572 00:31:33,910 --> 00:31:36,210 So they want to see that you have the capability of picking things up. 573 00:31:36,210 --> 00:31:38,996 So if you have two or three projects with different things on them or 574 00:31:38,996 --> 00:31:42,840 using different libraries, shows you that capability of picking things up. 575 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,520 But also, I rather have a person that's, like you said, proactive. 576 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,355 Right, that will go ahead and try to, I don't have the experience, but hey, look, 577 00:31:50,355 --> 00:31:52,485 I did a website for XYZ, I did this, I did that, 578 00:31:52,485 --> 00:31:55,380 that person shows that they wanna keep moving forward. 579 00:31:55,380 --> 00:31:58,812 And sometimes when you kinda have a toss up between two people, 580 00:31:58,812 --> 00:32:02,720 I would rather always take somebody that shows this productivity. 581 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,200 So yeah. >> Absolutely, okay, great. 582 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,410 We're gonna get to questions in about eight minutes. 583 00:32:08,450 --> 00:32:12,410 So let's though jump to the first actual interview, right. 584 00:32:12,410 --> 00:32:16,249 So we've said, okay, you finished your curriculum, 585 00:32:16,249 --> 00:32:19,800 build your two to three real projects. 586 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,311 Make sure that they look good and they're finished. 587 00:32:24,311 --> 00:32:28,270 Get your resume built out and start applying and treat it as a job. 588 00:32:28,270 --> 00:32:29,870 It's going to be hard work for 90 days. 589 00:32:29,870 --> 00:32:32,840 Okay, so they've done that, they finally get their first interview. 590 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,630 Give us some tips for that first interview, which is terrifying. 591 00:32:39,020 --> 00:32:40,857 >> Yeah, so the first, all right, so 592 00:32:40,857 --> 00:32:43,570 I like to talk to people how people approach things. 593 00:32:43,570 --> 00:32:45,602 So first think that you're gonna fail. 594 00:32:45,602 --> 00:32:49,262 I mean it sounds completely counterintuitive, but think that you're 595 00:32:49,262 --> 00:32:53,580 going to fail because the first couple of interviews, you are nervous, right. 596 00:32:53,580 --> 00:32:56,749 I don't think there's anything I can say to stop you from being nervous cuz it's 597 00:32:56,749 --> 00:32:59,750 your first interview, you don't know what you're getting into, right. 598 00:32:59,750 --> 00:33:04,311 So you don't know what you're gonna get asked, so you just have that nervousness. 599 00:33:04,311 --> 00:33:05,527 And I'm not gonna lie to you and like, 600 00:33:05,527 --> 00:33:07,860 I'm gonna tell you something that's actually gonna go away. 601 00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:11,870 No you're not, you're mostly gonna still be nervous on that first spot. 602 00:33:11,870 --> 00:33:15,019 So think that you're gonna fail because it makes it all easier when you think, 603 00:33:15,019 --> 00:33:17,119 all right, I'm not gonna pass this interview, but 604 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:19,949 I'm gonna use this interview as a learning opportunity, all right. 605 00:33:19,949 --> 00:33:24,223 So I usually, a lot of my students, specifically I know the first two or 606 00:33:24,223 --> 00:33:28,020 three interviews, it's not gonna go that well for them. 607 00:33:28,020 --> 00:33:30,085 So if they approach it with another idea, 608 00:33:30,085 --> 00:33:32,273 with the idea of I'm gonna learn from this. 609 00:33:32,273 --> 00:33:36,365 Any question I can't answer, I'm gonna write it down, I'm gonna go back and 610 00:33:36,365 --> 00:33:37,111 research it. 611 00:33:37,111 --> 00:33:39,520 I'm gonna try different things. 612 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,381 And actually, it's been better, 613 00:33:41,381 --> 00:33:44,740 it's been giving better results now then the other way around. 614 00:33:44,740 --> 00:33:46,720 So the first thing is you kinda wanna go with that mentality. 615 00:33:48,420 --> 00:33:53,450 During the interview itself, asking questions is really important. 616 00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:57,313 I know this comes from a place that, you have a job so 617 00:33:57,313 --> 00:34:01,260 it's easier to say this, but you are gonna work there. 618 00:34:01,260 --> 00:34:05,624 So you do wanna ask questions, because the worst thing that can happen is you end up 619 00:34:05,624 --> 00:34:08,770 working for a company, you're there for three months. 620 00:34:08,770 --> 00:34:11,890 You don't like it, you have a bad boss or the company doesn't meet your 621 00:34:11,890 --> 00:34:14,940 expectations, so then you're gonna go back into the job hunt. 622 00:34:14,940 --> 00:34:16,570 So you really put 90 days of work. 623 00:34:16,570 --> 00:34:18,300 You don't really wanna throw it away, right. 624 00:34:19,380 --> 00:34:23,329 And so you are interviewing, they are interviewing you, yes, but 625 00:34:23,329 --> 00:34:26,330 you're also kind of interviewing them as well. 626 00:34:26,330 --> 00:34:32,863 So asking questions, have you guys kept your developers? 627 00:34:32,863 --> 00:34:34,450 Are your developers still working here? 628 00:34:34,450 --> 00:34:35,830 Does everybody leave in three months? 629 00:34:35,830 --> 00:34:41,101 Well that's probably a red flag, right. 630 00:34:41,101 --> 00:34:43,582 What's your process for junior developers? 631 00:34:43,582 --> 00:34:45,950 Do you guys pair them with a senior developer or 632 00:34:45,950 --> 00:34:49,973 some type of mentoring program so they can kind of learn and pick up new skills? 633 00:34:49,973 --> 00:34:52,817 Things like that where you want to ask questions because you wanna keep growing 634 00:34:52,817 --> 00:34:53,430 as a developer. 635 00:34:54,740 --> 00:34:59,402 That first job, I've had a lot of students that had a first remote job and, 636 00:34:59,402 --> 00:35:04,212 before COVID, right, this was a little bit before COVID so remote wasn't, 637 00:35:04,212 --> 00:35:09,186 they've improved a lot in remote work, but they had a really bad experiences. 638 00:35:09,186 --> 00:35:11,508 So bad experience that they think development is not for me, and 639 00:35:11,508 --> 00:35:13,880 they probably completely went back to whatever they were doing. 640 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,820 And that has to do a lot with their first job. 641 00:35:16,888 --> 00:35:22,124 So asking questions, the first couple of ones try to 642 00:35:22,124 --> 00:35:28,319 learn from your first couple of interviews as much as you can. 643 00:35:28,319 --> 00:35:30,749 >> What are they gonna ask you technically, 644 00:35:30,749 --> 00:35:34,846 I mean I imagine the scariest part is are they gonna ask me to code live or 645 00:35:34,846 --> 00:35:37,632 are they gonna ask me to do some whiteboarding? 646 00:35:37,632 --> 00:35:38,970 What should people be preparing for? 647 00:35:40,220 --> 00:35:43,497 >> So it depends kind of what type of company you apply to, right. 648 00:35:43,497 --> 00:35:47,037 I think if you're going to the big fangs or your Facebooks and all that, 649 00:35:47,037 --> 00:35:49,780 those tend to be heavy on whiteboarding. 650 00:35:49,780 --> 00:35:54,260 If you're going to a medium sized company, those tend to be more towards assigning 651 00:35:54,260 --> 00:35:58,940 new projects, like here have pick a calendar picker and react from scratch. 652 00:35:58,940 --> 00:36:03,904 And if you go to smaller companies, startups, they just tend to be more 653 00:36:03,904 --> 00:36:08,890 kind of interview process, questions, maybe technical questions. 654 00:36:08,890 --> 00:36:13,530 They range from really complicated to very simple, but the more classic ones are, 655 00:36:13,530 --> 00:36:17,904 if you're usually applying to a React position, what is the virtual dom, for 656 00:36:17,904 --> 00:36:19,070 example. 657 00:36:19,070 --> 00:36:21,000 What's an API? 658 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:22,820 What are the lifecycle methods, right? 659 00:36:22,820 --> 00:36:26,301 Usually when you go applying for like a React position, 660 00:36:26,301 --> 00:36:30,150 these are the more common questions that you'll see. 661 00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:36,380 How can you make or can you write a simple button click? 662 00:36:36,380 --> 00:36:40,094 Can you do a simple button click with using React hooks? 663 00:36:40,094 --> 00:36:43,410 Because those are very simple 30 minute question. 664 00:36:43,410 --> 00:36:43,980 >> Got it. 665 00:36:43,980 --> 00:36:47,650 Is it appropriate to ask for the agenda of the interview? 666 00:36:47,650 --> 00:36:50,070 What are we going to cover? 667 00:36:50,070 --> 00:36:53,872 >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's again, yeah, that's a really good point, yeah. 668 00:36:53,872 --> 00:36:55,220 What's gonna be the process? 669 00:36:55,220 --> 00:36:56,200 What are we gonna cover? 670 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:57,210 Who am I gonna talk to? 671 00:36:57,210 --> 00:37:00,869 That's also good, ask who you're gonna talk to cuz then you can go turn around 672 00:37:00,869 --> 00:37:04,140 and do a quick research on that person and see is this guy more of the HR, 673 00:37:04,140 --> 00:37:07,475 is this guy more of the developer, what is he more leaning, right? 674 00:37:07,475 --> 00:37:09,725 So then you can kind of also prepare a couple talking points. 675 00:37:09,725 --> 00:37:14,562 >> Right, and then next level is you connect to them on LinkedIn and say, hey, 676 00:37:14,562 --> 00:37:18,342 I'm really excited to meet you in the interview coming up, 677 00:37:18,342 --> 00:37:20,173 would love to connect here. 678 00:37:20,173 --> 00:37:23,756 And they're gonna go, whoa, this person's proactive, 679 00:37:23,756 --> 00:37:27,062 they're emotional intelligence is a little higher. 680 00:37:27,062 --> 00:37:33,508 Whatever you can do to affect that potential outcome would be great. 681 00:37:33,508 --> 00:37:35,620 So all right, great. 682 00:37:35,620 --> 00:37:37,402 So we talked about the real interview. 683 00:37:37,402 --> 00:37:40,450 Some real life is going on right here, my dog just came in. 684 00:37:40,450 --> 00:37:41,970 Hey Jackson, can you call three way please? 685 00:37:43,790 --> 00:37:45,160 She will bark. 686 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,890 And can you close the door please? 687 00:37:46,890 --> 00:37:47,390 Thank you. 688 00:37:48,540 --> 00:37:49,850 It's my 12 year old, everybody. 689 00:37:51,530 --> 00:37:52,469 COVID, here we go. 690 00:37:52,469 --> 00:37:56,669 Okay, so thank you so much for covering this process. 691 00:37:56,669 --> 00:38:01,418 So before we take questions in two minutes, can you reiterate at a high 692 00:38:01,418 --> 00:38:05,445 level the playbook that we've been discussing here from, 693 00:38:05,445 --> 00:38:10,930 okay, you've completed your credential or your coding bootcamp. 694 00:38:10,930 --> 00:38:12,400 Walk us through real quick the high level. 695 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,920 Yeah, so you want to have two resumes, right. 696 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,520 You want to have at least two projects finished and looking decent. 697 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,095 You want to have some type of spreadsheet where you can keep track of all your 698 00:38:27,095 --> 00:38:29,100 interviews and everywhere you apply to. 699 00:38:29,100 --> 00:38:32,213 I wouldn't talk a lot about that, but really quickly, what you want to do is 700 00:38:32,213 --> 00:38:35,620 every application you should put it into your Excel spreadsheet or Google Sheets or 701 00:38:35,620 --> 00:38:36,750 whatever. 702 00:38:36,750 --> 00:38:41,110 And keep track of where you are and what status, that helps out a lot. 703 00:38:41,110 --> 00:38:43,924 Because sometimes some jobs won't work out, but 704 00:38:43,924 --> 00:38:47,609 then they'll probably call you back or they'll tell you, hey, 705 00:38:47,609 --> 00:38:50,698 you're almost there, come back in maybe six months. 706 00:38:50,698 --> 00:38:53,775 So you want to log that so you can come back three months, six months, whatever, 707 00:38:53,775 --> 00:38:56,780 and come back and apply again with a little bit more knowledge and experience. 708 00:38:58,770 --> 00:39:03,673 When applying online, if you're applying on one of these sites, try to load your 709 00:39:03,673 --> 00:39:07,937 resume with as many keywords applied to places that are your two years, 710 00:39:07,937 --> 00:39:12,930 about two years or any job description has a requirement of two years or less. 711 00:39:12,930 --> 00:39:14,790 That's a great opportunity for a junior developer. 712 00:39:17,110 --> 00:39:21,606 Let me see here, cold emailing is in my opinion it's not bad as long as you do it, 713 00:39:21,606 --> 00:39:26,850 again, professionally, right, keep a good email, share your projects. 714 00:39:26,850 --> 00:39:29,310 So reaching out always shows productivity. 715 00:39:29,310 --> 00:39:32,722 The worst case scenario is that they don't answer back, okay, that's it, 716 00:39:32,722 --> 00:39:34,160 end of the story there. 717 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,156 But the places that do answer back you have a higher chance of being able to find 718 00:39:38,156 --> 00:39:38,720 that job. 719 00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:41,890 So it's a great shot. 720 00:39:43,090 --> 00:39:45,753 And then, yeah, and then you have your interview process, the first couple of 721 00:39:45,753 --> 00:39:48,780 ones are gonna be hard one so try to take them as learning opportunities. 722 00:39:48,780 --> 00:39:52,175 Still give it your best, but try to keep that in the back of your head that if you 723 00:39:52,175 --> 00:39:55,720 don't get the job in the first couple of months, that's okay. 724 00:39:55,720 --> 00:40:00,010 It does happen, but use it as opportunities of learning. 725 00:40:00,010 --> 00:40:02,160 Ask questions, try to find out the agenda. 726 00:40:03,646 --> 00:40:05,270 [COUGH] >> Great. 727 00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:06,370 >> And it's always good. 728 00:40:06,370 --> 00:40:09,487 I was like to get the end, always send a thank you email. 729 00:40:09,487 --> 00:40:13,370 So it's just, thanks for the time, it was pretty good. 730 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:18,170 Sometimes that, again, puts you in the back of their heads that, if that 731 00:40:18,170 --> 00:40:22,193 interview that they decided does not work out, cuz the candidates can also back off. 732 00:40:22,193 --> 00:40:23,691 >> You could be the second choice and that's totally fine. 733 00:40:23,691 --> 00:40:27,897 >> Yeah, gosh, those are great tips, thanks for sharing them. 734 00:40:27,897 --> 00:40:28,590 [COUGH] >> [COUGH] 735 00:40:28,590 --> 00:40:30,863 >> The other thing you mentioned was, 736 00:40:30,863 --> 00:40:33,299 hey this is 90 days of work, right? 737 00:40:33,299 --> 00:40:38,788 It's gonna be a lot of work to get those interviews. 738 00:40:38,788 --> 00:40:43,050 And is it 90 days to get the job or just to get the interviews? 739 00:40:43,050 --> 00:40:44,370 >> No, to get the interviews. 740 00:40:44,370 --> 00:40:46,601 To get the interviews. 741 00:40:46,601 --> 00:40:49,112 They're different processes that take different times. 742 00:40:49,112 --> 00:40:53,017 But to start getting, in my opinion, good interviews, is these 90 days. 743 00:40:53,017 --> 00:40:54,333 >> Okay, got it. 744 00:40:54,333 --> 00:40:56,302 All right, we got a lot of great questions. 745 00:40:56,302 --> 00:41:00,400 We have probably 10 to 12 questions. 746 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:05,310 So we've got about 15, 16 minutes left. 747 00:41:05,310 --> 00:41:09,660 So about a minute per answer is probably about right. 748 00:41:09,660 --> 00:41:12,834 Let's do this, all right, from Alyssa. 749 00:41:12,834 --> 00:41:15,869 They said, do you recommend applying for 750 00:41:15,869 --> 00:41:21,344 junior developer positions after completing a tech degree or a boot camp? 751 00:41:21,344 --> 00:41:25,091 It seems every place requires years of experience before one can become 752 00:41:25,091 --> 00:41:25,844 a developer. 753 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:34,568 >> So definitely finishing those things, some of them give a certificate 754 00:41:34,568 --> 00:41:39,470 which is always good as a referencing back as a point of knowledge. 755 00:41:39,470 --> 00:41:44,310 Yeah, I would say yeah, finish them, it's good, it shows, again, completion, right? 756 00:41:44,310 --> 00:41:45,216 There you go. 757 00:41:45,216 --> 00:41:46,703 >> Family, it's real. 758 00:41:46,703 --> 00:41:48,400 >> Family, yeah. 759 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,890 So do complete them, again, this idea of finishing things is important. 760 00:41:51,890 --> 00:41:54,920 So you always wanna show that you finished, and 761 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,433 then everything else we talked about. 762 00:41:57,433 --> 00:41:58,010 >> I agree with that. 763 00:41:58,010 --> 00:42:01,633 And let's say you're not gonna have the skills you need to apply until you 764 00:42:01,633 --> 00:42:02,520 finish, right? 765 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,237 So whatever curriculum or credential you've chosen 766 00:42:06,237 --> 00:42:10,208 is designed to give you a complete set of skills to apply. 767 00:42:10,208 --> 00:42:12,040 And the projects are gonna be important. 768 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,213 So yeah, I think Will and I are both saying, complete it and 769 00:42:16,213 --> 00:42:18,562 then do that 90 day job search. 770 00:42:18,562 --> 00:42:22,522 From Diane, for your resume, do you recommend putting in all your 771 00:42:22,522 --> 00:42:26,950 social media pages on there, since they'll wanna know more about you? 772 00:42:26,950 --> 00:42:29,088 For instance, what if you have a YouTube channel, or 773 00:42:29,088 --> 00:42:31,430 Instagram account dedicated to your developer journey? 774 00:42:33,037 --> 00:42:38,264 >> Yeah, so social media, again, in context, right? 775 00:42:38,264 --> 00:42:41,269 If your social media is you and your family, that's really nice, 776 00:42:41,269 --> 00:42:43,600 doesn't really add too much, to be honest. 777 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,204 But like you said, if you do have a YouTube channel where you're logging your 778 00:42:46,204 --> 00:42:48,380 whole experience, yeah, that's definitely a highlight. 779 00:42:48,380 --> 00:42:53,361 It lets the other person take a quick look at who you are in an even better way, so 780 00:42:53,361 --> 00:42:55,587 yeah, I'd say of course >> Okay. 781 00:42:55,587 --> 00:42:57,221 >> So social media in context, that's that's what I'm saying. 782 00:42:57,221 --> 00:42:59,298 >> In context, yeah it's good. 783 00:42:59,298 --> 00:43:07,406 I would say there's a mixed message a little bit. 784 00:43:07,406 --> 00:43:11,401 You wanna be yourself, but at the same time, 785 00:43:11,401 --> 00:43:16,449 if you've got a lot of personal stuff on your social media 786 00:43:16,449 --> 00:43:21,730 that could throw anybody off, you wanna think about that. 787 00:43:21,730 --> 00:43:23,380 And we're saying, be who you are, 788 00:43:23,380 --> 00:43:26,240 you shouldn't have to be a certain way to get hired. 789 00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:31,600 But there is a fine line around what's the right thing to put on social media or not. 790 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:38,900 I think If you're in doubt, don't include it, which I hate, but all right. 791 00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:42,231 From Liz E, as a new entry level web developer, 792 00:43:42,231 --> 00:43:45,155 is it possible to find fully remote work? 793 00:43:47,156 --> 00:43:50,630 >> So it was a lot harder in January for COVID. 794 00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:55,743 Nowadays it's getting a lot easier, it's definitely getting a lot easier. 795 00:43:55,743 --> 00:43:59,580 There's definitely a lot more demand. 796 00:43:59,580 --> 00:44:02,853 One of the questions, at least if you were in an interview process for 797 00:44:02,853 --> 00:44:06,422 remote development, is to ask them what their process is for onboarding. 798 00:44:06,422 --> 00:44:10,982 One of the things that I've seen is while a lot of companies have gone remote, 799 00:44:10,982 --> 00:44:14,856 their on boarding processes is still a little bit flaky, right? 800 00:44:14,856 --> 00:44:17,441 And that could just create some difficulties when you're kind of 801 00:44:17,441 --> 00:44:18,710 onboarding and start working. 802 00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:23,009 So I do think that it's becoming a lot easier now than it was eight months ago, 803 00:44:23,009 --> 00:44:24,010 nine months ago. 804 00:44:24,010 --> 00:44:30,851 >> Okay, we have Treehouse students around the world, not just in the US. 805 00:44:30,851 --> 00:44:32,562 When people are doing their job search, 806 00:44:32,562 --> 00:44:35,388 what they need to think about as far as their country of residence? 807 00:44:35,388 --> 00:44:37,051 Do you have any guidelines of that? 808 00:44:39,934 --> 00:44:41,724 >> Would you mean when applying for remote positions? 809 00:44:41,724 --> 00:44:44,709 >> Yeah, so where is it just not worth applying, 810 00:44:44,709 --> 00:44:47,090 based on your country of residence? 811 00:44:48,290 --> 00:44:52,320 >> So most of the time, you're gonna wanna apply around the same, give or 812 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,288 take a couple of hours of your time zone, all right? 813 00:44:55,288 --> 00:45:00,078 And even the places that do hire try to also hire people around the same 814 00:45:00,078 --> 00:45:00,910 time zone. 815 00:45:00,910 --> 00:45:05,350 So, I'd keep that in mind, unless there's a company that works around the clock. 816 00:45:05,350 --> 00:45:07,940 And then in that case, it doesn't really matter. 817 00:45:07,940 --> 00:45:10,463 But most of the time it's the timezone consideration, 818 00:45:10,463 --> 00:45:13,100 cuz they need to be aligned to be able to interact with you. 819 00:45:13,100 --> 00:45:15,884 So if you're on a completely 12 hour different time zone, 820 00:45:15,884 --> 00:45:18,737 it's just gonna make a lot harder for you and for them as well. 821 00:45:18,737 --> 00:45:22,957 Cuz you also need to reach out and have questions and things like that. 822 00:45:22,957 --> 00:45:26,294 I'd also keep it in mind, for myself as well, not only for where I'm working, but 823 00:45:26,294 --> 00:45:26,855 for myself. 824 00:45:26,855 --> 00:45:32,084 >> Got it, and I would say that with all of the uncertainty around H1B visas and 825 00:45:32,084 --> 00:45:34,710 all sorts of things going on in the US. 826 00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:38,578 I think if you're a US citizen, stick to US companies, 827 00:45:38,578 --> 00:45:43,120 if you're not a US citizen, try to find work in your own country. 828 00:45:44,180 --> 00:45:45,788 It's gonna be hard for 829 00:45:45,788 --> 00:45:49,943 a lot of US companies to say yes to foreign folks right now. 830 00:45:49,943 --> 00:45:52,270 Just be aware of that. 831 00:45:52,270 --> 00:45:57,313 >> And just to add to that, the whole tax situation is always a thing. 832 00:45:57,313 --> 00:45:59,980 We can kinda forget about that, but taxes can also be a headache. 833 00:45:59,980 --> 00:46:01,662 So let's keep that in mind as well. 834 00:46:01,662 --> 00:46:04,298 If you work outside, or even if you work as sometimes contractors or 835 00:46:04,298 --> 00:46:05,050 things like that. 836 00:46:05,050 --> 00:46:06,960 >> Yeah, that's a good point to make. 837 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:12,813 All right, from Brigida, should we look for internships before junior role? 838 00:46:15,805 --> 00:46:20,680 >> I have seen more internships, though this summer was kind of crazy. 839 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,396 Even at the company where I work at, 840 00:46:22,396 --> 00:46:25,669 we didn't have internships this summer with everything going on. 841 00:46:25,669 --> 00:46:30,275 So I think they were kind of slow because of the situation. 842 00:46:30,275 --> 00:46:33,963 But I would definitely look for internships, that's a great opportunity to 843 00:46:33,963 --> 00:46:37,840 be able, again, to try, to learn, to add more to your portfolio, yeah. 844 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:38,652 >> Got it. 845 00:46:38,652 --> 00:46:41,463 >> And they are out there, by the way, there are good internships out there. 846 00:46:41,463 --> 00:46:45,090 >> And what I guess was a big question around, is it paid internship or not? 847 00:46:45,090 --> 00:46:48,430 Do you have any thoughts on whether you should do it if it's paid or not paid? 848 00:46:49,770 --> 00:46:52,180 >> That depends on the person, to be honest, right? 849 00:46:52,180 --> 00:46:56,401 If you can manage to take an unpaid internship, right? 850 00:46:56,401 --> 00:47:00,400 And that's not gonna hurt you financially, then I'd consider it. 851 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:05,430 But if it is, if you can't, I wouldn't, I really wouldn't go through that. 852 00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:08,559 And I'd probably try to maybe push a little bit more and 853 00:47:08,559 --> 00:47:09,859 try to find a paid job. 854 00:47:09,859 --> 00:47:12,866 >> Got it, okay, from Adrian. 855 00:47:12,866 --> 00:47:17,563 Do you think that the ten projects on the tech degree on Team Treehouse is 856 00:47:17,563 --> 00:47:21,727 enough to have a portfolio to get a junior position developer? 857 00:47:21,727 --> 00:47:25,013 Well, I don't know if you know enough about our projects to answer that. 858 00:47:25,013 --> 00:47:29,240 But they're pretty typical projects similar to what you do at a boot camp. 859 00:47:31,150 --> 00:47:34,430 >> So, I would grab, I mean ten is a lot of projects, right? 860 00:47:34,430 --> 00:47:37,551 So, I would pick out maybe two or three. 861 00:47:37,551 --> 00:47:44,418 Give them your own style, maybe give them some more functionality. 862 00:47:44,418 --> 00:47:47,280 Give it your flavor, and then put them on your resume. 863 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:51,350 Polish them a little bit more, yeah, just focus on two or three, ten is a lot. 864 00:47:51,350 --> 00:47:53,958 You could share them, you can probably put them on, if you have a personal portfolio, 865 00:47:53,958 --> 00:47:55,310 it's a great place to share them. 866 00:47:55,310 --> 00:47:57,004 But on your resume, you just wanna share maybe two or three, 867 00:47:57,004 --> 00:47:57,779 that's more than enough. 868 00:47:57,779 --> 00:48:00,247 >> Good call, and Adrian, just so you know, 869 00:48:00,247 --> 00:48:03,620 we've designed those projects to start off very simple. 870 00:48:03,620 --> 00:48:07,856 So the first chunk of those projects aren't gonna be advanced enough for 871 00:48:07,856 --> 00:48:09,740 you to showcase on your resume. 872 00:48:09,740 --> 00:48:12,111 It's really gonna be the later ones anyway. 873 00:48:12,111 --> 00:48:16,079 So I would echo Will saying, choose the last two or three, customize them, 874 00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:18,010 really polish them, and use those. 875 00:48:19,020 --> 00:48:21,720 And even better, use them for, like we said, 876 00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:25,260 a local organization that you're passionate for, right? 877 00:48:25,260 --> 00:48:27,310 So it's super real. 878 00:48:27,310 --> 00:48:32,063 So, from Patricia, hello Will and Ryan, hello. 879 00:48:32,063 --> 00:48:35,467 What advice would you give someone who's 40 plus entering this field for 880 00:48:35,467 --> 00:48:36,233 the first time? 881 00:48:39,804 --> 00:48:43,170 >> So leverage any previous experience that you have, right? 882 00:48:43,170 --> 00:48:48,016 So you come into 40 plus, you have some experience in some field, 883 00:48:48,016 --> 00:48:50,071 use that at your advantage. 884 00:48:50,071 --> 00:48:56,890 And it's kind of the thing is like, development doesn't really discriminate. 885 00:48:56,890 --> 00:49:00,729 They talk a lot about ageism, but I really haven't seen it. 886 00:49:00,729 --> 00:49:03,922 It could just have been that I haven't seen it, it does exist, 887 00:49:03,922 --> 00:49:05,925 I'm not gonna say it's not out there. 888 00:49:05,925 --> 00:49:09,309 But I think now with remote work, kind of moving business to remote work, 889 00:49:09,309 --> 00:49:10,902 it kind of opens the possibility. 890 00:49:10,902 --> 00:49:13,208 So I would try to leverage experience and 891 00:49:13,208 --> 00:49:16,425 I just kind of keep following the process that we just talked about. 892 00:49:16,425 --> 00:49:19,661 >> Love it, I would echo that, and also say, a good employer 893 00:49:19,661 --> 00:49:24,040 will actually realize you have life experience and that's really valuable. 894 00:49:25,220 --> 00:49:30,926 So actually you have tremendous valuable experience you should pull on, right? 895 00:49:30,926 --> 00:49:35,021 Like Will's saying, figure out how to talk about that experience and actually use and 896 00:49:35,021 --> 00:49:35,850 as an event. 897 00:49:35,850 --> 00:49:38,814 >> One more comment, just one more comment to that. 898 00:49:38,814 --> 00:49:40,123 When you're applying for a job, 899 00:49:40,123 --> 00:49:42,425 there's no need for you to tell them your age, anywhere. 900 00:49:42,425 --> 00:49:43,190 >> Yep, good call. 901 00:49:45,150 --> 00:49:46,430 Great answer, thank you. 902 00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:53,653 From Mel, this might be more question for me, spin off of the internship question. 903 00:49:53,653 --> 00:49:58,830 Most of the ones I've seen and applied for are asking what university I'm attending. 904 00:49:58,830 --> 00:50:00,921 Is it enough just to type in Treehouse? 905 00:50:00,921 --> 00:50:04,470 Or has anyone gotten an internship with just a Treehouse and 906 00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:06,194 In the education field. 907 00:50:06,194 --> 00:50:11,049 Lets say, if they're asking what university you're attending, 908 00:50:11,049 --> 00:50:15,920 it's not gonna work to say that you're a Treehouse student. 909 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:20,298 They're probably looking for university students specifically and 910 00:50:20,298 --> 00:50:22,590 they probably will filter you out. 911 00:50:22,590 --> 00:50:27,341 So, I know that's an answer you don't wanna hear, but 912 00:50:27,341 --> 00:50:30,890 that's probably what's gonna happen. 913 00:50:30,890 --> 00:50:33,864 I feel a little differently than Will does and 914 00:50:33,864 --> 00:50:37,628 internships I think they're generally not a good path. 915 00:50:37,628 --> 00:50:43,485 I would just go straight to your first paid job, but I'm just being blunt. 916 00:50:43,485 --> 00:50:46,521 Treehouse, the projects you build are gonna be great, but 917 00:50:46,521 --> 00:50:49,751 you need to use it in the framework that Will's talking about. 918 00:50:49,751 --> 00:50:54,582 Relying upon the word Treehouse as your education, is not gonna get you the job, 919 00:50:54,582 --> 00:50:55,090 right? 920 00:50:55,090 --> 00:50:56,490 It's the projects that matter. 921 00:50:57,770 --> 00:51:00,467 And if the internship is looking for a university student, unfortunately, 922 00:51:00,467 --> 00:51:02,410 that's probably what they want. 923 00:51:02,410 --> 00:51:06,480 So I would just skip it and go to the next one. 924 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:11,296 So, from Aaron, what about freelancing as experience? 925 00:51:11,296 --> 00:51:15,569 >> Yeah, [COUGH] that's kind of these free projects that we're talking about, 926 00:51:15,569 --> 00:51:18,540 could eventually become freelance opportunities. 927 00:51:18,540 --> 00:51:20,820 So you make that website for the restaurant we're talking about. 928 00:51:20,820 --> 00:51:22,540 They get new stuff on their menu. 929 00:51:22,540 --> 00:51:24,730 Well now, you got a job or whatnot. 930 00:51:24,730 --> 00:51:27,749 You have a little bit more experience so that you can go back and be like, hey, 931 00:51:27,749 --> 00:51:30,890 we're gonna charge you for this and there's nothing wrong. 932 00:51:30,890 --> 00:51:32,640 This is always a thing with a lot of people. 933 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:34,900 There's nothing wrong with charging for your work. 934 00:51:34,900 --> 00:51:39,034 Also do a little bit of research on what kind of the hourly rate is. 935 00:51:39,034 --> 00:51:42,560 Cuz, again, because we got excited and it's normal, right? 936 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,506 We get excited we want that first paycheck, 937 00:51:44,506 --> 00:51:46,665 we'll lowball ourselves to whatever number and 938 00:51:46,665 --> 00:51:49,890 then what happens is our client will just get accustomed to that number. 939 00:51:49,890 --> 00:51:51,690 It's gonna be really hard for you to raise your price. 940 00:51:51,690 --> 00:51:55,389 So, the first time you can do it for free, if they come back they need some work, 941 00:51:55,389 --> 00:51:58,317 go ahead, do a little research and come back with more market, 942 00:51:58,317 --> 00:52:01,104 you can come a little lower, but come with a market number. 943 00:52:01,104 --> 00:52:02,431 I see that happen a lot. 944 00:52:02,431 --> 00:52:03,812 >> Well then, thank you. 945 00:52:03,812 --> 00:52:08,332 From Armen, when making a portfolio do we strictly need to invent our own code or 946 00:52:08,332 --> 00:52:10,895 can we use pieces of code from other people and 947 00:52:10,895 --> 00:52:13,810 make a portfolio using all these pieces together? 948 00:52:14,970 --> 00:52:18,970 Yeah, in development we're not reinventing the wheel. 949 00:52:18,970 --> 00:52:21,679 So, it's not so much as you're copying code, 950 00:52:21,679 --> 00:52:25,220 it's how you're using this code together, right? 951 00:52:25,220 --> 00:52:26,650 Same thing with music, right? 952 00:52:26,650 --> 00:52:32,590 There is no new notes, it's a combination of notes and we get new music, right? 953 00:52:32,590 --> 00:52:34,268 So same idea, same concept. 954 00:52:34,268 --> 00:52:35,288 >> Appreciate that. 955 00:52:35,288 --> 00:52:38,304 I think just [CROSSTALK] go ahead. 956 00:52:38,304 --> 00:52:38,968 >> Yeah, I forgot. 957 00:52:38,968 --> 00:52:42,521 Just to add to that, just make sure you understand the code that you are doing. 958 00:52:42,521 --> 00:52:44,113 >> Yes. >> Because if somebody comes back and 959 00:52:44,113 --> 00:52:46,650 ask you about something, about a piece of code, why did you use this? 960 00:52:46,650 --> 00:52:47,196 What do you use that? 961 00:52:47,196 --> 00:52:50,060 You wanna give, you wanna be able to provide an answer. 962 00:52:51,450 --> 00:52:54,540 >> Amen, yeah, that's vital, to be able to do that. 963 00:52:54,540 --> 00:52:58,400 From Raphael, I'm someone changing careers and learning by a Treehouse. 964 00:52:58,400 --> 00:52:59,818 What should I be prepared for 965 00:52:59,818 --> 00:53:03,430 in a technical style interview if I'm applying for junior deposition? 966 00:53:03,430 --> 00:53:06,700 We talked a little bit about that, but why don't you reiterate that real quick? 967 00:53:06,700 --> 00:53:08,991 >> So, you can expect other whiteboarding, right? 968 00:53:08,991 --> 00:53:11,536 And most of whiteboarding is probably gonna be some type of algorithm. 969 00:53:11,536 --> 00:53:16,381 So I would study up, I would go through the process of learning, 970 00:53:16,381 --> 00:53:18,464 reading a couple of books. 971 00:53:18,464 --> 00:53:23,400 The Cracking the Coding interview is a pretty good one off the top of my head, 972 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:24,957 Breathing Clean Code. 973 00:53:24,957 --> 00:53:27,155 I think one is called JavaScript Samurai I believe. 974 00:53:27,155 --> 00:53:33,428 Just researching, getting, on white boarding you would expect probably that. 975 00:53:33,428 --> 00:53:36,841 I would use some of these platforms that kinda give you a couple of problems and 976 00:53:36,841 --> 00:53:37,850 try to do it yourself. 977 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,610 Code Kata, I think, or Lead Code or some of these things, try to practice. 978 00:53:43,610 --> 00:53:45,376 So, building projects is gonna give you practice. 979 00:53:45,376 --> 00:53:47,491 Try to actually go through practicing projects. 980 00:53:47,491 --> 00:53:49,930 All these things are the things that will add you up and will make you, 981 00:53:49,930 --> 00:53:52,080 make it a lot easier when you go to these interviews. 982 00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:53,480 >> Great, thank you. 983 00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,540 We'll try to blaze through the rest of these. 984 00:53:55,540 --> 00:53:57,140 We're getting low on time. 985 00:53:57,140 --> 00:53:59,968 From Alyssa, could we hear more about cold emailing, 986 00:53:59,968 --> 00:54:02,430 how do you recommend approaching this tactic? 987 00:54:03,570 --> 00:54:07,643 >> Yeah, so, you wanna research the company that you wanna apply to, 988 00:54:07,643 --> 00:54:10,860 you wanna research the people that make decisions. 989 00:54:10,860 --> 00:54:14,183 Or you probably wanna find the people that make decisions on the development team, 990 00:54:14,183 --> 00:54:16,090 cuz that's probably where you're applying. 991 00:54:16,090 --> 00:54:19,800 I would try to tailor the email to, again, to what they do. 992 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,020 Present yourself. 993 00:54:21,020 --> 00:54:25,002 And try to find a project or try to find some type of code, or something that you 994 00:54:25,002 --> 00:54:28,558 can share with them and being not only sure your interests as to why you 995 00:54:28,558 --> 00:54:33,230 want to play, but also look a little bit more of that effort that we talked about. 996 00:54:33,230 --> 00:54:34,520 And that would be great. 997 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,422 And sometimes it's very easy to just do a simple inspect on their page and 998 00:54:37,422 --> 00:54:38,480 they have a little error. 999 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:39,780 And you just highlight that, right? 1000 00:54:39,780 --> 00:54:42,040 Just again, bringing some points of conversation. 1001 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:46,110 So they can see that you're not only vested in them, but you you really, 1002 00:54:46,110 --> 00:54:48,394 really want to be a part of that company. 1003 00:54:48,394 --> 00:54:50,585 >> Love it. Thank you. 1004 00:54:50,585 --> 00:54:56,277 From Adam, has anyone devalued the way you gain your knowledge of programming? 1005 00:54:56,277 --> 00:55:00,260 Are there companies that don't believe in boot-camps and online learning 1006 00:55:00,260 --> 00:55:01,955 >> Yeah, yeah there are, but 1007 00:55:01,955 --> 00:55:06,393 there's all types of people in the world so it doesn't really matter. 1008 00:55:06,393 --> 00:55:07,357 >> Got it. 1009 00:55:07,357 --> 00:55:08,410 How can you tell? 1010 00:55:08,410 --> 00:55:10,606 How can you avoid those companies. 1011 00:55:10,606 --> 00:55:15,055 >> I mean, I don't. 1012 00:55:15,055 --> 00:55:17,075 >> You can look at the people that work there. 1013 00:55:17,075 --> 00:55:18,297 That would be a great way. 1014 00:55:18,297 --> 00:55:21,445 See if you can see people that do have boot-camp experience or not. 1015 00:55:21,445 --> 00:55:24,785 That would be a great tell, or maybe if they all come from a CS background and 1016 00:55:24,785 --> 00:55:26,868 they're most likely only one people with CS. 1017 00:55:26,868 --> 00:55:29,847 It does happen, but there's a bunch of companies out there so 1018 00:55:29,847 --> 00:55:31,461 I'm gonna really worry move on. 1019 00:55:31,461 --> 00:55:32,640 It wouldn't take my sleep. 1020 00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:33,495 >> Okay, great. 1021 00:55:35,850 --> 00:55:39,180 I'm a beginner, but I'm really enjoying and appreciating Team Treehouse. 1022 00:55:39,180 --> 00:55:39,940 Thanks, Lisa. 1023 00:55:39,940 --> 00:55:43,370 Thank you so much for this informative session. 1024 00:55:43,370 --> 00:55:45,620 Does age matter when applying for employment? 1025 00:55:45,620 --> 00:55:47,917 If so, how can [INAUDIBL E]she says Thankyou. 1026 00:55:47,917 --> 00:55:48,929 issue. Thank you 1027 00:55:48,929 --> 00:55:50,746 >> It shouldn't, really it shouldn't. 1028 00:55:50,746 --> 00:55:53,310 Again, there's no need for them to ask your age. 1029 00:55:54,590 --> 00:55:59,280 >> Yep, I think your situation and they can see how old you are. 1030 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,592 Use that to your advantage, whether its young or old, 1031 00:56:03,592 --> 00:56:07,266 pull on that tank strength versus a weakness. 1032 00:56:07,266 --> 00:56:09,628 Let's tackle two more. 1033 00:56:09,628 --> 00:56:13,520 From Adam, How do you manage the workload while still working a nine-to-five and 1034 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:14,920 learning new technologies? 1035 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:18,576 >> For me, it was scheduling. 1036 00:56:18,576 --> 00:56:22,235 Of course, you have to find a process, right? 1037 00:56:22,235 --> 00:56:23,105 That works. 1038 00:56:23,105 --> 00:56:26,435 For me It was just scheduling, scheduling my time as best as possible. 1039 00:56:26,435 --> 00:56:30,151 So, and kind of focusing on that time, right? 1040 00:56:30,151 --> 00:56:33,941 If you said you're gonna work for two hours or whatever, at night, turn off your 1041 00:56:33,941 --> 00:56:38,830 phone, turn off your social media and just dedicate yourself for that amount of time. 1042 00:56:38,830 --> 00:56:43,710 >> How do they interview, so, Leanne said, how do they do interviews for remote work? 1043 00:56:43,710 --> 00:56:44,790 Is it on Zoom? 1044 00:56:44,790 --> 00:56:46,472 I've only heard about interviews in person and 1045 00:56:46,472 --> 00:56:49,050 they literally watch you build whatever they want you to build for them. 1046 00:56:50,750 --> 00:56:51,620 >> Very similar. 1047 00:56:51,620 --> 00:56:54,850 I've actually gone through that process recently. 1048 00:56:54,850 --> 00:56:56,070 So, a lot of it is online. 1049 00:56:56,070 --> 00:56:58,922 There's a couple of code editors online where the other person can look at 1050 00:56:58,922 --> 00:56:59,527 what you type. 1051 00:56:59,527 --> 00:57:03,219 And then you got your classic Zoom call, and you're both on a Zoom call and 1052 00:57:03,219 --> 00:57:06,400 kinda going over this code editor and building something. 1053 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:07,000 >> Got it. >> Yeah. 1054 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:08,190 >> Okay, cool. 1055 00:57:08,190 --> 00:57:10,080 Well, that's all we have time for. 1056 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:14,620 Thank you so much for spending your valuable time with us. 1057 00:57:14,620 --> 00:57:18,319 Any parting message you wanna give anybody. 1058 00:57:18,319 --> 00:57:21,240 >> Imposter syndrome exists. 1059 00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:22,380 Just wanna let everybody know. 1060 00:57:22,380 --> 00:57:25,320 So, I just went through an overview right now. 1061 00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,960 Just again, like to keep conversations and things. 1062 00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,890 And you always feel imposter syndrome, 1063 00:57:31,890 --> 00:57:36,250 you're always gonna feel like you're not there yet. 1064 00:57:36,250 --> 00:57:39,290 Even with the amount of experience I have, I still get that feeling. 1065 00:57:39,290 --> 00:57:41,240 You just learn to kind of control that monster. 1066 00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:42,303 I know that it's gonna come, 1067 00:57:42,303 --> 00:57:45,320 it's going to rear its head every time you want to try something new. 1068 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,036 It doesn't go away, but you learn to know that it exists. 1069 00:57:48,036 --> 00:57:52,104 So, I just wanna leave everybody with some advice, it's just, it's not gonna go away. 1070 00:57:52,104 --> 00:57:53,358 You're gonna learn to tame it. 1071 00:57:53,358 --> 00:57:58,580 And coding is about doing, coding is about grinding. 1072 00:57:58,580 --> 00:58:00,450 It's not so much about memory. 1073 00:58:00,450 --> 00:58:02,140 It's not so much about being smart. 1074 00:58:02,140 --> 00:58:03,940 It is about effort. 1075 00:58:03,940 --> 00:58:05,300 It is about, you gotta keep going. 1076 00:58:05,300 --> 00:58:06,100 You gonna hit a couple of walls. 1077 00:58:06,100 --> 00:58:06,753 It's gonna get frustrating. 1078 00:58:06,753 --> 00:58:07,889 That's not gonna change, but 1079 00:58:07,889 --> 00:58:09,907 just keep going there is light at the end of the tunnel. 1080 00:58:09,907 --> 00:58:12,486 >> Amen. >> And everybody can do it, yeah. 1081 00:58:12,486 --> 00:58:13,800 >> Thank you Will.