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[Nick Pettit]: Paul, Thanks so much for being here. 

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I really appreciate you coming out. >>[Paul Irish]: No problem. 

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[Nick Pettit]: So, for people who don't know who you are, 

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how would you describe yourself? 

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Who are you, and what do you do?

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[Paul Irish]: I am a developer advocate

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on the Chrome team right now,

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and so I kind of focus on--that encompasses a lot,

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but I focus on everything I can do

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to make it better to create compelling content for the web.

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We've got a lot of great content inside of Chrome.

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I wanted to help educate people about that,

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help people understand how to use things like

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the Chrome DevTools better.

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I also come with a big history of front-end development

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and open-source projects that I work on

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to help developers

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learn what they need to know

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 to do better front-end development, 

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make better websites and web apps. 

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[Nick Pettit]: That's awesome. 

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You're involved in a million different projects. 

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You're doing Modernizr, HTML5 Boilerplate, 

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which I use all the time by the way.

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You've been on the jQuery team,

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and you've made all these really handy tools for 

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front-end devs.

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This might seem obvious, but 

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what's the motivation for working on all these different things?

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[Paul Irish]: I think part of it 

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is basically that I feel a lot of satisfaction

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helping other people, and so part of it is just that. 

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Also, the other thing--I think this is actually another part that's happened--

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is that I have a really bad memory,

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and what that translates into is 

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if I don't write something down, I'll forget it. 

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So, this happened in front-end development where you learn this technique

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of using media queries or the viewport meta,

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and you need to keep track of this

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because this is the right way to do it

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in this situation.

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So, that eventually translated into what became

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the HTML5 Boilerplate project,

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where a lot of best practices were distributed

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all over on blogs and books and things like that,

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and I was just like we need to get this together

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just to keep track of it; 

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so I can keep track of it and remember to use it on the next project. 

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So, that's helped me a lot and has helped other people. 

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The other thing for me that really drives me 

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is that I want the web to be

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where people build great things. 

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I'm just really excited about anything that I can do

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to help make the web be a stronger platform

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for making great, really cool stuff. 

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[Nick Pettit]: So, you're very diligent 

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in tracking all of these different things?

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[Paul Irish]: Because I can. 

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[Nick Pettit]: How do you balance your time working on all those different projects?

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[Paul Irish]: I don't have a good mechanism

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for time management right now.

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I use a really cool tool called, 'WorkFlowy,'

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which is like a super-enhanced

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 to-do method list app. It's really cool. 

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I set up priorities for myself

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on a quarterly basis

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and try and get them. 

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I think that's actually quite important,

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which is to have a longer-term view of what you want 

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to attack, because it's so easy on a daily basis

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to be totally distracted and

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just be like, "I want to play with this new thing

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and get it done. Oh, wow, something,"

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and then you totally forget that you have this much larger, 

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higher-impact thing that you should be doing. 

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So, it's hard, and I'm still really bad at time management, 

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but I'm working on it. 

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[Nick Pettit]: I know what you mean. 

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With being involved with so many different projects, 

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I guess you kind of have to keep a big-picture view

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as to what all those things are working towards. 

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[Paul Irish]: Yep, and what the priorities are. Yeah. 

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[Nick Pettit]: Cool. So, before we continue, I want to back way up

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and just get some of your history. 

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Where did you grow up and what were you into?

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[Paul Irish]: Sure. I'm from Western Massachusetts and Connecticut. 

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So, I'm from New England where we say, 

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'wicked,' 'It's wicked cool.'

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[Nick Pettit]: Wicked. 

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[Paul Irish]: I was into music.

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I was in the marching band; I played the tuba. 

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I was into drama. So, I was a band and drama kid in high school. 

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I was really into music and, in fact, 

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the first time that I really got going online was

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I created a music blog.

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This was in--I put it out in 2004,

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and I thought I was so late to the music blog scene,

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but it turned out that I was one of the first 50 or so.

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Having that environment where I had a website that had a lot of traffic,

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and I could play with the design and experiment 

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and get a lot of feedback

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on how people liked it,

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that was one of the first times when I was really like, 

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This front-end development thing is a lot of fun. 

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[Nick Pettit]: That's when you first became interested in the web and technology?

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[Paul Irish]: That was when I was like,

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this could definitely be full time. 

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I'd been playing with websites.

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Back when IE4 came out

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they did this really cool marketing campaign.

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This was when the DHTML term arrived,

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and so they had this marketing campaign 

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where they rented out all these movie theaters across the U.S.

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and invited a bunch of developers,

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and I went and I got free popcorn and a free t-shirt

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and a free Windows 95 install CD,

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and they showed about what you could do in IE4,

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and it was amazing.

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So many great features came out then,

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and so that was when I was like,

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this interest of mine, there's cool stuff in here.

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Eventually, it quieted down.

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I went to college, but after that everything picked back up again. 

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[Nick Pettit]: So, did you go to school for this stuff?

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[Paul Irish]: I went to school for--

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I got a degree in technical communications.

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I don't actually know--

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I really do wish that there was more university-level coverage

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for web development. 

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Front-end development is hard, and it's a pain,

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and I wish that there was a more sophisticated education

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program for this.

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I got education in computer science and mathematics,

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and management and communication. 

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[Nick Pettit]: With us being an education company,

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I'm interested to know if 

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you feel like your degree really helped you

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in your career, or--?

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[Paul Irish]: Mine did,

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and I think these days having a computer science background

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has a very direct effect.

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I wouldn't say 5 years ago that computer science would help in web development,

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but nowadays, especially on the client side, 

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there's so much logic there.

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You're writing jQuery, things are going good, 

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you're translating, you're writing larger applications.

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[Nick Pettit]: It's getting complicated. >>[Paul Irish]: It's getting real complicated. 

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A background in computer science lays a lot of the groundwork

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so that you're not making stupid mistakes

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and taking 4 months to learn how you should have done things. 

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So, yeah, computer science has a big influence

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on where the trajectory 

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of front-end development is going for sure. 

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[Nick Pettit]: Cool. Well, I think a big challenge

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that's facing people coming out of college today

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is how to make the transition to 

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a career and not just kind of hopping from job to job

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or being unemployed. 

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How did you make that transition?

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Were you just kind of in an internship,

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and it was a really natural progression

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or did you--?

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[Paul Irish]: Yeah. I started out I was doing 

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some marketing for 

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a stationary company

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that made wedding invitations and birth announcements, 

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and I wasn't even starting out with web stuff.

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I was creating 

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a mail-merge Word document,

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and then we were using that to fax blast all of our customers,

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and I was customizing the mail merge to be

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depending on the customer, and it was all this logic inside Word.

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It was awesome.

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That transitioned, within that job,

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into working on their e-commerce presence,

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and so that was good. 

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I think for most people 

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having something you can develop on your own--

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In my case I had my music blog,

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but I think having your own web presence,

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whether it's a blog; I think blogging is really good. 

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Blogging what you're learning is extremely smart

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and having that place where you can iterate and play around.

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So, when you see a new feature come out,

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like you're reading a site and they talk about some new CSS3 feature

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or something, make a demo with it. 

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Kind of explore it. 

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Put it up on CodePen. 

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There's a lot of communities now that are encouraging

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and let you explore things, get feedback.

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Having a social community

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that you can talk to and explore

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your own professional development with.

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I had one, and it's just been very--

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It's a very smart way to go about things. 

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[Nick Pettit]: So what first attracted you to

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front-end development, specifically?

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Because you were making a blog, did you do that in WordPress or something?

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[Paul Irish]: Yeah, it was WordPress. >>[Nick Pettit]: Okay. 

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Why aren't you, say, 

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like a Ruby or a PHP developer, for example?

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[Paul Irish]: For me, the thing that really rocks about front end

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is that you're building the interface,

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and not only are you building the interface, 

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and you can make decisions around

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how the interactions are,

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but you're also getting feedback from its users

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and from the customers.

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The thing that they're touching, their cursor is going over

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what you've created, and you're in a position

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to where you can define the style of interaction

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and the quality of the user experience.

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Other people can work on how fast it responds

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and a really strong infrastructure,

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but the UI is just very sexy to me. 

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[Nick Pettit]: So it's kind of about that instant gratification then?

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[Paul Irish]: The instant gratification and the feedback cycle of

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I'm creating the interface, they're using it, 

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they can love it, they can be delighted by it. 

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Or they can hate it when I apply

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a lot of text shadow to it and make it hard to read or something. 

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[Nick Pettit]: Sure, sure. 

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So, I want to talk about HTML5 Boilerplate for a little bit,

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because I'm personally interested in it.

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I think it's a really amazing project

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for people that are just starting out

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in web design and web development,

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and I think there's a lot more that goes into it

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than people might realize. >>[Paul Irish]: Yeah. 

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[Nick Pettit]: So, first, how did that project start?

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[Paul Irish]: Before working for Google, 

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I was at an agency in Boston making websites, web apps.

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We had a big team of front-end developers there,

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and when I was going from project to project,

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I was noticing that I was pulling lines of code

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from my markup and from my CSS 

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from my last one into my new one,

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and then I was like, well, I should probably make a template 

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just to keep track of this, and so I could start off with that template each time. 

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That's the original genesis, was just 

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that I needed to keep track of all this stuff

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and move it forward from project to project. 

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Soon after, I got Divya Manian involved.

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We put out a 1.0 just to see what everyone else thought.

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Immediately it was really great

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because inside HTML5 Boilerplate

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is a bunch of techniques, right?

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One of the things that has continued up until a little bit ago

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is having inline documentation.

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You see a technique, and you can instantly see

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the website where that was birthed,

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and someone can justify exactly why this is important. 

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So, it's kind of serving as an education tool.

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You've kind of got to understand why everything is in here.

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So, what happened is we put this out there,

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and immediately we got a lot of feedback

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over on GitHub where we open-sourced.

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A lot of people coming in and being like, 

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Actually, I see what you're doing here,

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but if you tweak it, this is a much stronger position.

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It accounts for this edge-case bug in Opera 9.6 or something like that. 

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Every character inside HTML5 Boilerplate

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has had a lot of discussion around it,

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and so everything that you see is the result

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of extensive conversations that have included

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some of the best front-end developers in the industry.

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You can go and look back at all those past conversations

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in the old issues on GitHub.

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The commits in the project,

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the log messages have very desciptive

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explanations of why we're doing this.

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It's very well-justified in why all these decisions 

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are very strong as a baseline for starting your web project. 

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[Nick Pettit]: Cool. I think when beginning developers

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look at HTML5 Boilerplate for the first time-- >>[Paul Irish]: We've got a lot. 

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[Nick Pettit]:  --they're just like, "Wow."

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"What's all this weird code?"

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Let's talk about that a little bit. 

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From the top, what are all those IE conditional comments,

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because that's the first thing people see?

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[Paul Irish]: Yeah, so the IE conditional comments,

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they don't look great. 

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They look kind of nasty. 

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It's like sometimes you want your mark-up to look 

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svelt and sexy and minimal,

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and I love doing that as well.

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Inevitably when you're developing--

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So, this is not a problem for IE6 and IE7,

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which have no market share anymore.

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IE8's definitely still around,

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but it's been a case where 

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they have actual CSS bugs in their implementation,

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and you can use CSS hacks,

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like syntax hacks, to target them and change the width or something,

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and change the padding

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to make your layout work and to fix those bugs.

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But using undocumented CSS hacks,

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it doesn't allow you to communicate well with your team,

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and when you're working in a group

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 you want everyone to read the code and understand.

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So, the conditional comments

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provide a first-class way,

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that was provided by IE luckily,

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to specifically target these browsers

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with CSS styles that affect just IE7 and just IE8,

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or a combination thereof.

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It's tricky because that's provided for you for free

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in the Boilerplate, 

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but I do think that you do want

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to try as hard as you can to avoid vendor-specific styles.

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A lot of times just setting explicit dimensions,

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width and height, on an element will let you avoid

313
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doing that, and so you should try and go as long as you can

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without specifying specific browsers.

315
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But it is there when you need it, and it helps a lot. 

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[Nick Pettit]: There's plenty more in Boilerplate

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00:14:34,510 --> 00:14:36,350
that we could talk about. 

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00:14:36,350 --> 00:14:38,580
There's--I've heard you talk about 

319
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all the weirdness with carsets. >>[Paul Irish]: Yes. 

320
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[Nick Pettit]: There's Chrome Frame, Modernizr, setting the viewport, and so on. 

321
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What's your favorite feature, 

322
00:14:47,090 --> 00:14:50,840
and what do you think is the most interesting thing that's there?

323
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[Paul Irish]: I found this on Ajaxian a long time ago,

324
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and now on Stack Overflow there's a great question called, 

325
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'The Hidden Features of HTML.'

326
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I submitted it a long time ago, and it's the highest voted, and it's in HTML Boilerplate,

327
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and this is the protocol-relative URLs.

328
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So, down at the bottom when we include jQuery,

329
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we pull it in from the Google CDN,

330
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but the script source is equal to 

331
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//ajaxgoogleapis.com stuff stuff,

332
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and you're like, "I think you're--"

333
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We get pull requests and bug reports on a monthly basis.

334
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Like, "You got a typo, you missed the http:."

335
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And we're like, "Actually, we didn't."

336
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So, the protocol-relevant URL

337
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provides an ability to--

338
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the browser will grab the HTTP version

339
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when the page is in HTTP

340
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and HTTPS when you're hosted in SSL.

341
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This is cool because it guarantees

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that the assets are requested securely

343
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only when it's required.

344
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There is a small overhead in requesting a secure asset

345
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when you're in regular HTTP.

346
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So, this is really cool

347
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and helps, although it is a little tricky on Windows 

348
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when you're just developing, when you've loaded it up

349
00:16:02,270 --> 00:16:05,370
from the file system and then in your browser it says, "file:,"

350
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it can be really slow. 

351
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:09,350
If you use a local development server

352
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however, you don't have that problem. 

353
00:16:12,990 --> 00:16:14,750
So, I think the feature is really awesome,

354
00:16:14,750 --> 00:16:16,930
and that's probably one of my more favorite things. 

355
00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:18,820
[Nick Pettit]: It's crazy you brought that up

356
00:16:18,820 --> 00:16:20,670
because I was just looking at that the other day

357
00:16:20,670 --> 00:16:23,930
trying to figure out what happened here.

358
00:16:23,930 --> 00:16:26,710
It's kind of amazing to me just how much

359
00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:30,240
goes into a, supposedly, vanilla webpage. 

360
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,130
I mean, it's called 'Boilerplate,' right?

361
00:16:32,130 --> 00:16:37,100
So, it seems like it should only be the most basic things that you need, 

362
00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:39,170
but there's a lot there. 

363
00:16:39,170 --> 00:16:41,930
Do you think the job of a front-end developer has become

364
00:16:41,930 --> 00:16:44,790
a lot more complicated in recent years?

365
00:16:44,790 --> 00:16:47,060
And is that a good or a bad thing?

366
00:16:47,060 --> 00:16:50,000
[Paul Irish]: Well, there's 2 things happening at the same time. 

367
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,600
One of which is that age-old legacy browsers

368
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are on the decline. IE6 is dead. 

369
00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:01,260
If you look at market share numbers, IE6 is dead.

370
00:17:01,260 --> 00:17:04,950
IE7 has under--actually just about 1%.

371
00:17:04,950 --> 00:17:06,750
IE is really strong but still

372
00:17:06,750 --> 00:17:08,200
that's improving. 

373
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,420
A lot of front-end developers' pain has been 

374
00:17:10,420 --> 00:17:13,790
the old browsers that haven't kept up

375
00:17:13,790 --> 00:17:17,700
with not only fixes, but features that we want to use. 

376
00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:19,760
So, that part is getting easier.

377
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,790
By the same point, the last 3 years

378
00:17:21,790 --> 00:17:24,160
have brought an enormous amount of features

379
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,800
to browsers that we now get to incorporate

380
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,140
 and figure out the best way to incorporate.

381
00:17:29,140 --> 00:17:33,040
So, for instance, if you're using a CSS transition, 

382
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,630
do you use that CSS transition

383
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:38,480
and just let it fall back

384
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,310
if it's not supported by the browser?

385
00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:44,560
I recommend you do. 

386
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,220
But you could choose to feature detect it with Modernizr

387
00:17:48,220 --> 00:17:51,740
and then use jQuery to animate

388
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the same general transition.

389
00:17:54,510 --> 00:17:57,720
So, figuring out your fallback scenario

390
00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,050
is a little tough. 

391
00:17:59,050 --> 00:18:01,210
A little bit ago, a few of us put out a site called, 

392
00:18:01,210 --> 00:18:04,960
'HTML5 Please,' which aims to provide

393
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,810
a bit more guidance for all this stuff. 

394
00:18:06,810 --> 00:18:08,370
So, basically, you get to look up

395
00:18:08,370 --> 00:18:11,230
for every feature, all the new stuff, 

396
00:18:11,230 --> 00:18:13,610
you get to look up exactly

397
00:18:13,610 --> 00:18:15,980
what is probably the best way to handle this

398
00:18:15,980 --> 00:18:17,800
for a cross-browser scenario,

399
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,500
where you might not have support everywhere. 

400
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:23,370
Should you use a polyfill script to enable that feature in an old browser

401
00:18:23,370 --> 00:18:25,060
or should you just let it fall back 

402
00:18:25,060 --> 00:18:29,070
or is there some in-between state that is probably the best way?

403
00:18:29,070 --> 00:18:33,890
Finding that is tricky, but I think there's more and more resources out there that help. 

404
00:18:33,890 --> 00:18:35,770
[Nick Pettit]: It seems like this is something

405
00:18:35,770 --> 00:18:38,690
that's unique to the nature of web development

406
00:18:38,690 --> 00:18:40,440
where you have to come up with these fallbacks

407
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,920
for all of these different browsers coming out.

408
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,630
Do you think it'll always be that way,

409
00:18:45,630 --> 00:18:48,680
or do you think we'll hit some point

410
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,520
where things are pretty stable,

411
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:56,000
and web development is just kind of a little bit more static?

412
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,110
[Paul Irish]: Well, so if we got there, 

413
00:18:58,110 --> 00:19:00,500
if we got to that point, that would essentially indicate

414
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:03,430
that there's not any

415
00:19:03,430 --> 00:19:07,220
groundbreaking new features being added.

416
00:19:07,220 --> 00:19:09,980
I kind of don't want to be there. Right?

417
00:19:09,980 --> 00:19:12,820
At the same time, I don't like 

418
00:19:12,820 --> 00:19:16,730
having to send a bunch of polyfills

419
00:19:16,730 --> 00:19:19,110
at older browsers

420
00:19:19,110 --> 00:19:22,030
and just testing and worrying about that. 

421
00:19:22,030 --> 00:19:24,940
So,yeah, that's getting really complicated and messy,

422
00:19:24,940 --> 00:19:27,420
and managing the various states,

423
00:19:27,420 --> 00:19:31,160
like if you think about the old state of

424
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,720
all browsers must look--the experience must look the same in all browsers

425
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,860
to the new one which is we feature detect, we find out what we can provide,

426
00:19:39,860 --> 00:19:42,880
and there's a lot of combinations of how your site looks.

427
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,740
Then you're like bringing responsive design, and it's changing. 

428
00:19:45,740 --> 00:19:48,890
So, from a capability and future perspective, it's different 

429
00:19:48,890 --> 00:19:52,940
from a viewport size; it's a different experience,

430
00:19:52,940 --> 00:19:55,780
and when you've built a site,

431
00:19:55,780 --> 00:19:57,940
and you're testing it to make sure that everything is right, 

432
00:19:57,940 --> 00:19:59,910
there's a lot of combinations to look through.

433
00:19:59,910 --> 00:20:01,640
Here, the most important things are 

434
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,060
choosing features to use where the fallback scenario

435
00:20:05,060 --> 00:20:07,250
is you kind of forget about it.

436
00:20:07,250 --> 00:20:10,610
If a browser doesn't have border radius CSS transitions,

437
00:20:10,610 --> 00:20:12,560
that's probably okay.

438
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,940
A lot of these just kind of enhance. 

439
00:20:14,940 --> 00:20:16,930
The other part is

440
00:20:16,930 --> 00:20:19,690
that I think we could actually, as a community, 

441
00:20:19,690 --> 00:20:23,830
do better to help encourage our users

442
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:26,260
to be using browsers that we specifically want 

443
00:20:26,260 --> 00:20:28,400
to support, and that helps our job,

444
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,420
and it helps them.

445
00:20:30,420 --> 00:20:33,770
I know conversion rates improve significantly

446
00:20:33,770 --> 00:20:35,840
when the experience is faster. 

447
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,330
Helping your users be on the kind of browsers

448
00:20:39,330 --> 00:20:41,450
that you yourself enjoy

449
00:20:41,450 --> 00:20:45,900
actually has a good business support,

450
00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:49,130
and is a lot more fun for users and developers, of course. 

451
00:20:49,130 --> 00:20:51,960
[Nick Pettit]: There's so many steps

452
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,200
that are involved in front-end development at this point. 

453
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,320
This is something you were blogging about recently

454
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,270
where you said the tool chain is a little bit overwhelming. 

455
00:21:01,270 --> 00:21:03,450
There are so many steps and there are so many different

456
00:21:03,450 --> 00:21:06,610
tools and techniques to deal with each one of them. 

457
00:21:06,610 --> 00:21:09,960
Do you think there's a need to simplify that

458
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,540
and try to bundle all of that together?

459
00:21:12,540 --> 00:21:14,870
What are your thoughts on that?

460
00:21:14,870 --> 00:21:16,550
Because I feel like the barrier to entry 

461
00:21:16,550 --> 00:21:19,360
is really high for somebody that's new to it. 

462
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:21,520
[Paul Irish]: Yeah, so, it's tricky. 

463
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,430
There's a lot going on, 

464
00:21:24,430 --> 00:21:26,150
and, yeah, it's a lot to absorb. 

465
00:21:26,150 --> 00:21:29,960
I've recently been working 

466
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,330
with Addy Osmani

467
00:21:32,330 --> 00:21:34,000
and some other people inside the web development community

468
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,150
to put out a project called, 'Yeoman,'

469
00:21:36,150 --> 00:21:39,830
and this project is about putting together a lot of tools

470
00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:42,600
that help you build better web apps. 

471
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,340
Now, there's a lot going on in there,

472
00:21:44,340 --> 00:21:47,880
but it's using things like CSS pre-processors,

473
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,150
live reload, 

474
00:21:50,150 --> 00:21:53,160
even shipping a plug-in for Sublime text.

475
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,260
So, there is like a baseline of features

476
00:21:56,260 --> 00:21:58,400
that most front-end developers use,

477
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,480
and I don't think this is really listed anywhere.

478
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,370
Maybe I should make a blog post out of this, 

479
00:22:02,370 --> 00:22:07,100
but there's a few things that these days are pretty well accepted

480
00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:10,420
as these are fundamental to development.

481
00:22:10,420 --> 00:22:14,640
People don't talk enough to their colleagues, coworkers

482
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,850
about what is their process for developing.

483
00:22:18,850 --> 00:22:23,090
How are they interacting

484
00:22:23,090 --> 00:22:25,600
with their text editor, their source control?

485
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,750
I think there could be a bit more of a conversation

486
00:22:28,750 --> 00:22:33,750
around what we can do to make sure that

487
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:36,230
when we're coming back to work on our projects

488
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:38,870
it's not frustrating and instead it's fun,

489
00:22:38,870 --> 00:22:40,970
and I'm getting work done quickly.

490
00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:44,440
Every time I watch someone else do their work

491
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,160
and I sit next to them and I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa,"

492
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,300
"What did you just do? What was that keyboard shortcut?"

493
00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:50,080
[Nick Pettit]: Right.

494
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,770
{Paul Irish]: I think we should do a lot more of that. 

495
00:22:52,770 --> 00:22:55,520
[Nick Pettit]: Do you think it's okay for people to just use the stuff

496
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,720
and maybe not totally understand it but just know that,

497
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,060
"I need to do this thing for it to work?"

498
00:23:03,060 --> 00:23:06,150
At what point does it just become an abstraction?

499
00:23:06,150 --> 00:23:09,190
[Paul Irish]: I think it's--that's a great question. 

500
00:23:09,190 --> 00:23:12,070
So, right now--

501
00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:16,240
Nicolas Gallagher is the new project lead

502
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,560
on HTML5 Boilerplate. 

503
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,340
He's kind of taken over, and he's doing a fantastic job.

504
00:23:20,340 --> 00:23:23,690
So, his perspective is that 

505
00:23:23,690 --> 00:23:28,060
the Boilerplate project is aimed specifically 

506
00:23:28,060 --> 00:23:30,850
as a baseline--this is a baseline for web apps,

507
00:23:30,850 --> 00:23:32,840
and it can be used for web apps and websites,

508
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,590
and there's not really much to take away,

509
00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:38,620
and there's probably not much to add. 

510
00:23:38,620 --> 00:23:40,930
In fact, it's a very stable project

511
00:23:40,930 --> 00:23:42,730
at this point because it's not trying to solve

512
00:23:42,730 --> 00:23:44,160
other problems. 

513
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,720
Now, let's say in jQuery, for instance, 

514
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,040
this has been a longtime question

515
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,930
which is, "Should I learn JavaScript at the same time as I learn jQuery?"

516
00:23:52,930 --> 00:23:54,170
"Should I learn it first?"

517
00:23:54,170 --> 00:23:56,660
My answer to that has always been

518
00:23:56,660 --> 00:23:58,730
you learn them at the same time, 

519
00:23:58,730 --> 00:24:02,090
especially things like math and strings and array methods.

520
00:24:02,090 --> 00:24:06,810
You want to learn those JavaScript methods fairly quickly,

521
00:24:06,810 --> 00:24:08,650
because there are not good answers for them in jQuery.

522
00:24:08,650 --> 00:24:11,280
At the same time, you don't want to have to learn

523
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,230
how a lot of the intricacies of the DOM work

524
00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:16,350
very early on. 

525
00:24:16,350 --> 00:24:19,610
So, I think it's a matter of 

526
00:24:19,610 --> 00:24:21,960
learning the techniques as you're using the tools. 

527
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,130
So, in HTML5 Boilerplate, 

528
00:24:23,130 --> 00:24:25,230
you kind of dig into some of the documentation,

529
00:24:25,230 --> 00:24:27,060
and at some point you'll just be like, 

530
00:24:27,060 --> 00:24:30,010
"Why?" And you should be asking that question. 

531
00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:33,270
That shouldn't preclude you from using the tool. 

532
00:24:33,270 --> 00:24:36,810
At the end of the day, you want to enjoy what you're doing,

533
00:24:36,810 --> 00:24:38,430
and you want to do it fairly quickly,

534
00:24:38,430 --> 00:24:40,330
and you don't want to be frustrated.

535
00:24:40,330 --> 00:24:42,210
So, you use the tools that are available.

536
00:24:42,210 --> 00:24:45,610
I think it's important to understand how they work,

537
00:24:45,610 --> 00:24:48,390
and right now I'm trying to get a better understanding 

538
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:50,750
how browsers work, and those are really complicated.

539
00:24:50,750 --> 00:24:54,690
But I'm not going to tell everyone that every web developer

540
00:24:54,690 --> 00:24:57,580
needs to understand how all of the web browsers work.

541
00:24:57,580 --> 00:25:01,470
I think we're okay with that kind of working as a tool.

542
00:25:01,470 --> 00:25:03,230
It's a balance. 

543
00:25:03,230 --> 00:25:06,670
Understanding the internals of any tool 

544
00:25:06,670 --> 00:25:10,350
will help you be much stronger at using it,

545
00:25:10,350 --> 00:25:13,750
but you don't need to understand it

546
00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:15,060
to use it. 

547
00:25:15,060 --> 00:25:17,230
[Nick Pettit]: So, wrapping up, what advice would you give

548
00:25:17,230 --> 00:25:20,700
to web designers and developers out there,

549
00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:23,630
just as a very general question?

550
00:25:23,630 --> 00:25:25,040
[Paul Irish]: Sure. 

551
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,220
[Nick Pettit]: What can they do to better themselves?

552
00:25:27,220 --> 00:25:29,440
[Paul Irish]: One of the things that happened to me

553
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,140
a while ago was,

554
00:25:31,140 --> 00:25:33,730
I had joined the jQuery IRC channel.

555
00:25:35,390 --> 00:25:38,350
So, IRC is kind of, it seems nerdy.

556
00:25:38,350 --> 00:25:41,130
Yeah. Nick's like, "Yeah, definitely nerdy."

557
00:25:41,130 --> 00:25:43,030
But I joined that a long time ago,

558
00:25:43,030 --> 00:25:45,830
and I was just super active in it, and that's how I got involved

559
00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:49,340
in jQuery projects, started doing developer relations for jQuery, 

560
00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:52,180
joined the jQuery team, was involved in the project for a long time,

561
00:25:52,180 --> 00:25:55,050
and it was all because I joined the IRC channel

562
00:25:55,050 --> 00:25:57,250
and just started talking to people and helping people.

563
00:25:57,250 --> 00:26:00,560
So, helping other people with

564
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,160
front-end development 

565
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,220
you learn a lot, and I would recommend that. 

566
00:26:06,220 --> 00:26:08,400
The same time that that happened,

567
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,590
I found a group of people that were

568
00:26:11,590 --> 00:26:14,000
doing a bunch of jQuery, doing a bunch of JavaScript, 

569
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,030
and we just formed this kind of social group

570
00:26:18,030 --> 00:26:20,460
of 20 of us.

571
00:26:20,460 --> 00:26:24,350
It was also on IRC, and we would just talk all the time

572
00:26:24,350 --> 00:26:26,970
about what we were doing,

573
00:26:26,970 --> 00:26:30,170
and this led to--there was a little bit of competitiveness,

574
00:26:30,170 --> 00:26:32,460
but a lot of cooperation.

575
00:26:32,460 --> 00:26:34,060
We would work on projects together,

576
00:26:34,060 --> 00:26:36,750
things like MovetheWebForward.org

577
00:26:36,750 --> 00:26:39,220
and HTML5 Please, have come out of this group.

578
00:26:41,470 --> 00:26:43,130
So, having--

579
00:26:43,130 --> 00:26:47,560
So you're not alone without a mentor.

580
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,380
It's great to have a social group

581
00:26:49,380 --> 00:26:52,070
where you don't feel like completely inferior to everyone around you

582
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:54,070
and can kind of support each other.

583
00:26:54,070 --> 00:26:56,480
The last part of this is really just to

584
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,680
be able to have fun while you're learning.

585
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,650
I think part of that is 

586
00:27:00,650 --> 00:27:03,210
creating little demos and experiments for yourself. 

587
00:27:03,210 --> 00:27:06,940
Doing that will give you more experience with cool features

588
00:27:06,940 --> 00:27:08,180
and things that you want to explore

589
00:27:08,180 --> 00:27:10,300
and help you feel more confident when you

590
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:12,630
propose to your boss, "Really we should do it this way,"

591
00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:14,920
"Why? Why?"

592
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:16,800
And you'll be like, "Well, I've actually done some work with this,

593
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,390
and it's not as bad or as scary as you think,

594
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,600
and, I don't know, it'll all work out."

595
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,590
[Nick Pettit]: That's the advice that I always give to people

596
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:28,430
is just, "Do cool stuff and share it with other people."

597
00:27:28,430 --> 00:27:30,130
[Paul Irish]: Yeah, absolutely. 

598
00:27:30,130 --> 00:27:32,520
[Nick Pettit]: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it. 

599
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,150
[Paul Irish]: Cool, thanks. 

600
00:27:34,150 --> 00:27:36,830
[Treehouse FRIENDS]

601
00:27:36,830 --> 00:27:39,260
[?music playing?]