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[? music ?] [Treehouse Friends]

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[Pasan Premaratne] Here at Treehouse, one of our missions is to get our students into jobs.

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Learning to code, while a big part of this challenge isn't all of it.

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Today we're going to be talking to Rachel Parsons.

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[Rachel Parsons] Rachel is currently a consultant iOS developer but has held many positions in different companies in a range of skill sets.

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So I thought we could ask her what it means to be job ready.

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Let's take a look.

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So, Rachel, thank you for taking the time to do this with us today.

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How are you doing?

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I'm good.

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Thanks for having me on.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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To start, tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Well, I've been developing apps on various platforms, primarily web, since the mid 90s.

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I got into web development then and really found my passion for programming, mainly on the front end.

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I dabbled a bit in the back end in college and throughout my career.

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I've really found that my specialization comes on front end development with an emphasis on either web and, more recently, mobile.

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>> Okay.

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Not so much desktop, but I've written in just about every language you can think of—.NET, Java, CE—

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writing iOS apps now.

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I've done Android—all of the above.

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What kind of made you jump around rather than—you know—do you have a favorite language

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or do you just like kind of exploring different areas?

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>> I like being diverse, and I like learning a lot.

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I have a tendency to get bored with the same project and the same problems and the same solutions.

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So I found that what has kept me most diverse is trying to be innovative with the technologies I have available

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and finding new solutions for old problems or finding new innovative ways to apply old technology to new problems.

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>> Gotcha.

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So when I was kind of looking you up, I noticed that you had done a lot of different things and different languages—

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big companies, small companies, consulting.

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The theme for today's discussion is being job ready.

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We have a lot of students here at Treehouse who go through our curriculum and learn to code,

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whether its for iOS, Android, and you can speak to all of these areas.

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Then they kind of look to what's the next—look at what the next step is.

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You've been in the industry awhile and you've—you know—been in a bunch of different roles,

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so I wanted to talk to you about what you think being job ready means.

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>> Being job ready—that's a tough one because it encompasses so much.

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I think one of the keys to being job ready in the technical world is be ready to learn and be ready to focus.

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Despite the fact that I've had a pretty diverse technology experience or skill set, I have always focused at least some of my energy—

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some amount of time to a technology.

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So it's really rare that I'm doing .NET and Java at the same time.

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I spent probably 5 years doing .NET and web development, specifically,

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so taking—being prepared to devote 2 to 3 years to a technology, at least, if not longer, is really important.

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Then being ready to learn.

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You really have to be a fast learner if you're going to be in technology these days because it does move fast.

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The JavaScript framework you use today is not the one you will use in 6 months.

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Part of that is just the changing landscape of mobile, of desktop, and just the many different directions you can go.

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So to be job ready, I think those 2 things are really important and that will help guide you on the path that you are meant to travel.

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So you mentioned that for the technical side.

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So what about—how important do you think are soft skills and are they necessary?

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Things like—you know—networking and some of the cliched ones.

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But just—you know—being able to work with teams.

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How important are those things, and how can someone who doesn't go to a traditional school—

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who uses something like Treehouse—

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how can they shore up those skills to kind of prove that they're ready to enter the workforce?

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>> Yeah—sure.

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Soft skills are paramount, especially in the absence of extensive experience or in-depth technical skills.

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That can actually put an employer over the edge as far as, yes, I'm going to hire that person.

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Because anybody can learn technical skills, as you guys are fully aware,

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anybody can pick up a book or sign up for a tutorial and learn Java or learn Objective-C.

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But what it comes down to really is being able to interact with people.

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You have to be able to talk to customers.

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You have to be able to hold a conversation to present good ideas, to present bad ideas to clients,

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and in software development everybody is your client, whether you're full-time or a consultant.

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Everybody is a customer.

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So you're constantly playing somewhat of a sales role whenever you're trying to push a feature or encourage a user to go a certain direction

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with an implementation or architecture decision.

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Those communication skills are paramount.

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Presentation skills are really important.

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Then, enthusiasm.

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I think I have gotten at least 1 or 2 jobs based on my enthusiasm alone because that goes a long way from the hum-drum—

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you know—here I am doing some software—that's no fun.

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We all want to have at least a little bit of fun and energy at work.

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Finding something that you're passionate about and bringing that passion to your work—that could take you so much further.

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Now can you talk about how—you know—do you know of any ways people can improve—can gain these skills?

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How can you learn these skills?

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>>The best way that somebody can pick up these skills is practice.

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Get in front of people, get out in the community, join the user groups,

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start networking with people, figure out who your peers are, and participate.

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My company just put on a hackathon and a lot of people were a little nervous—you know—what's that going to mean,

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what's a hackathon?

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What it really—what we were trying to encourage people to do is come out and try things, come out and practice,

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maybe play with a technology that you are not familiar with, or interface with some people on a team that you're not familiar with—

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that you don't work with on a daily basis because getting that different perspective—

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and I see this just by going out into user groups and communities.

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Getting that other perspective can shed a lot of light on a problem you're working through or a skill you're trying to practice,

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and really the only way to prepare yourself is to practice—just get out there—you know—throw yourself out there.

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Put yourself in an uncomfortable position and see what happens.

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Now does that relate to the same—in the same way to learning technical skills?

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Say you were to hire someone who just taught themselves how to code,

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what kind of things are you looking for technically?

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>> I am looking for technical acumen—not so much specifically with a language.

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But more an underlying understanding—conceptual knowledge.

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So study what you already know and then study maybe some things that you don't know,

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and that—I think in technology we get so focused on a language or a platform,

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and we forgot sometimes about all the other things that play into it.

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In fact, today I was just trying to solve a math problem—to run algebra—all those skills that you learn in college you might not get

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from an untraditional education track, but you can supplement that.

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You can go out—seek those things out on your own.

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Read a philosophy book.

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read a math book or blog post or whatever.

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That is an investment in yourself, and I think that's another angle of preparation that you can do on your own that will help build that.

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Now I've noticed, like I mentioned earlier, that you've learned a lot of languages,

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you've kind of done a lot of different things,

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how did you learn?

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Did you teach yourself?

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What—can you kind of explain that process?

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The majority of my technical skill has been self-taught.

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I learned Java in college because they taught it.

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I learned C and C++ a little bit.

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I learned a little bit of the technology in college.

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But really so much of it is self-taught, and you have to be able to learn that way if you're going to be technical.

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It's just the way that the brain works and the platforms go.

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What we were developing 10 years ago, we're not really writing that code anymore.

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Even going from—for instance, right now, I'm writing iOS apps.

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Even going from iOS 5 to an iOS 7 app is—it's a pretty big leap to try to make that connection and to get ramped up

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on the frameworks and the APIs and all the things that change throughout.

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Again, it really goes back to being able to learn quickly.

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I think that's something I have learned.

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I can learn quickly.

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I figured out my mechanisms, whether it's practice or class or just throwing myself into it first.

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What is that mechanism, if you don't mind me asking?

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For me, personally, it's getting a book, and I've just recently switched to ebooks because that's a huge thing for me

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to go technical—ebooks because now I can set with my Kindle or the app—the Kindle app up—either one, and actually write code.

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I walk through examples, and that helps me learn really quickly because then if I have a real-world example

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I know exactly what things are going to map to in other languages.

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I can start relating—okay, this is Hello World, this is label in this language,

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that's just like a label in .NET or in Java or whatever.

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Learning—I learn by example—just actually doing something.

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Okay.

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Now let's switch tracks a little bit now.

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What are some of the ways that—you know—you highlight these skills?

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For our students who are just coming into these fields, what are different ways that they can highlight their skills,

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whether technical or non-technical, that would—say—make you want to hire them?

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>> I think it's really important to give specific examples.

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Being able to give a concrete example of something that you do and you do well is—that's huge.

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Because when you're interviewing, you could tell somebody anything.

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But a skilled interviewer will be able to see through any nebulous or ambiguous words that you use—

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any ambiguous stories that you tell or examples that you give.

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It's pretty clear generally when you've done something and when you haven't.

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The more specific an example you can give, even if it's just you being enthusiastic about something.

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That goes—that's a lot better than just saying, "Well, I helped out  on this app and I helped out on that app."

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Those kinds of things tell me that you didn't really do anything, as opposed to I helped design and implement the

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active directory scanner that pulled out employees and sorted them by name.

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Specific examples go a long way.

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Gotcha.

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Now—you know—we talked about soft skills, what are ways that—like do you recommend kind of like going out to meet ups

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and those kinds of things—user groups when looking for jobs?

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What is kind of the best place for someone who's learning to go out and look for their first job?

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>> It's really important who you know.

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That's really what it comes down to.

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You can talk to technical recruiters all day.

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You could talk to non-technical recruiters all day.

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As somebody who has hired people, I am looking for recommendations from people I know.

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I'm looking for more of the story of somebody and less about what some recruiter is telling me about this person—

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how this person may or may not fit.

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Recruiters—I'm a bit skeptical of—sorry, recruiters.

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We're all skeptical.

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Ultimately, making those connections.

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I have recommended people to certain jobs, and that's worked out really well.

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I have been recommended to jobs, and I've gotten more jobs through word of mouth than anything else—or personal recommendations.

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So yeah, go to meet ups.

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Go to user groups.

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Go to presentations and conferences.

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I've gotten job offers at some of those places.

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Just from talking to people, talking about what you're doing—it's at those places where you'll have those casual conversations

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about what you're most passionate about and make connections that are a lot more meaningful than searching Dice.com

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or talking to the guy at Joe's staffing company down the street.

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So it's as important to put in time away from your computer, as much as it is to sit and hack away?

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Most definitely, unless you're one of those hacker types that just wants somebody to slide pizza boxes under the door.

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I mean if you actually want a job out in the real world, you have to get out there.

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You have to put yourself out there.

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You have to practice those interpersonal skills.

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Because that is 50 percent of what people are looking for, unless you just want the job writing COBOL—

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>> Right.

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—which I know a couple guys.

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That's great to hear because one of things we really try and—you know—we primarily teach how to code.

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But as a business teacher here, it's kind of like my—I try to push as much behind those lessons that, yes, you're learning to code.

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But you also need to kind of go out there—do as much of an effort in getting to know people and get to know your community

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and those kinds of things.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Again, when looking through your history—kind of—I think—correct me if I'm wrong,

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you did a brief stint—and you mentioned that—did a brief stint as a designer before realizing that you preferred programming.

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Yeah, kind of—not so much designer as I explored the designer aspect of things.

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I actually went to the Art Institute for Multimedia Web Design.

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I was doing web development and knew I kind of wanted to take that to the next level, but I didn't really know what that meant.

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So I went to the Art Institute, and when I discovered that I wasn't a very good designer,

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I decided to switch tracks and go to something a little bit more technical.

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I left there and went back to a regular university because I had already finished half of a degree program.

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For me, it was about trying something different.

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I don't regret any of that.

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It was 9 months well-spent—a lot of money but 9 months well-spent.

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Just to find out that something I tried didn't work out.

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I have no question now that I am not a designer.

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Yeah—sorry—go on.

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I'm just a little too logical for that side.

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Yeah.

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The question I had out of that was do you recommend that as an approach?

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Did it—was it—I guess it was useful for you to figure out what you really wanted to do.

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Do you recommend people trying out different things or just—like bunkering down and going with one—

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I want to learn how to write iPhone apps so let me just focus on Objective-C and Xcode for the next 8 months or a year?

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>> Yeah.

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I think it should be moderated.

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It's—you can't keep switching tracks every week.

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You can't—I mean, you can if you want, but it's not very productive,

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and I don't think it's fair to a technology or a platform or an approach or to yourself to invest so little time that you can't really evaluate it.

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With art school for me, that was 9 months.

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At the end of 9 months, I realized this is not taking me down the road that I want to go,

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this is—I'm not happy going this direction.

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I wasn't happy the other way, but this is really not what I want to do.

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So I gave it 9 months of solid effort and investment before I made that change and said, "Okay, I need to go do something different."

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Yeah, I encourage it, but I think you really have to make sure that you give every option its fair opportunity.

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If you're going to learn mobile, pick one of the technologies—Android, iOS, and do it for—

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you have to do it for at least 6 months, in my opinion.

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A language or a platform—that kind of thing needs at least 6 months of real, solid effort because for most people

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that's how long it's going to take for you to get a full grasp on it.

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If you're a slower learner, you might need more time.

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You really just kind of have to figure out what that time-frame is for yourself.

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But for me it's about 6 months, and I try to devote a little bit more because I like to get a little bit more advanced.

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I like to see what else can I do with this technology.

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How far can I take it?

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I am at 2-1/2 years in iOS development right now, and it's getting a little bit hum-drum.

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As they come out with new stuff and I have new ideas—

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I'm starting to play with some different aspects of the framework and doing different things with the technology.

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Cool.

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To kind of wrap up, I just wanted to ask you one final question.

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What advice do you have to people who are just entering the field—if you had just one piece of advice to give them?

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>> Be persistent.

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Be persistent.

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If you have a passion for this, keep at it.

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There is a lot of competition for jobs and for the fun projects.

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But if you're really good at what you do and you keep at it, you will get what you want.

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So just keep pounding.

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Well, thank you very much, Rachel.

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>> Thank you too, John. >> It was a pleasure talking to you.

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If any of our students want to get in touch with you, what's the best way?

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Twitter is probably the easiest way to find me.

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I am out there @pinkeerach.

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Cool.

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That's an interesting name.

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Yes.

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That's Pinky and the Brain.

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Nice.

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Thank you very much.

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All right. Thank you.

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[?  music ?] Treehouse Friends]