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Welcome to the Dev Team Show.

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My name is James.

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In this episode,
we're gonna talk about cloud assumptions.

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Joining me is Scott Hanselman.

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Welcome to the show, Scott.

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>> How is it going?

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[MUSIC]

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I'm very familiar with
deploying a website,

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hosting a website on a local server,
pretty straightforward stuff.

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Even like I would describe
as commodity hosting.

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Where I'd go buy some cheap hosting
service, maybe that's $10 a month, right?

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Deploy up there, very simple.

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I can add a site, configure that site,

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deploy my site up there,
pretty simple stuff.

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Very similar to what I did locally but
cloud.

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I created an Azure account, and now,
I just kinda repeat and do the same thing.

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Am I doing something wrong?

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Am I missing kind of the point of
why I would even be interested in

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doing stuff up on Azure and
doing cloud development?

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>> Okay, so the word cloud is one
of those words like containers,

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where it's like it's fun to say,
it feels good in your mouth.

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Cloud, cloud, but, what does that mean?

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Is cloud's what like younger
people call hosting?

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It's more than that.

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I like to think about it in terms of
what is virtual, and what is physical?

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And what is elastic, and what is not?

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So if I made a website on a machine or
a Virtual Machine,

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and I put it on a host, lower case h,
or upper case H, it doesn't matter.

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Some local inexpensive host,
I could visit my computer.

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I could go down, I could drive down to
that host, and I could find that machine,

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and I could say, show me my C drive,
or show me my mount point.

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Where's my site?

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Well, it's on this spinning rushed

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disc on this rack in this room
with a wire that goes to the wall.

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That's your computer.

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That is hosting.

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Sometimes in the old days,

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you used to actually physically
take your computer down there.

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And you would literally be
buying a slot in the rack.

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>> Co-locating, yeah.

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>> You would co-locate, right?

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Then it got to the point
where you just FTP your code,

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you'd send your code up there.

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But when you move into the cloud,
if you treat the cloud as a host,

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as a simple host, that is a rather naive.

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And that's not meant to be a diminutive,
it's just simply to be a descriptive word.

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It's a naive way to think about hosting.

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You can take a Virtual Machine,
and do what's called lift and

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shift, and move that into the cloud,
and you go look, we're into the cloud.

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When I move something over in the cloud
though, and I treat the cloud as a host,

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I'm missing out on the fact
that it can be elastic.

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It can scale in different directions, and

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I'm also fooling myself in
thinking I can visit it, okay?

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We've gone into an entirely
virtual world right now, okay?

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So let's think about classic
three tier architecture.

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This was when a website, and a shopping
cart, and a product catalog would

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sit on top of some business objects that
would then sit on top of a database.

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>> Right.
>> Again,

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you could visit them all and
you could go and put them somewhere.

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And if someone were gonna upload
information to that particular

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application, maybe product images,
you take those images and

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then you put them on the disk, right?

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And then what happens if there's
now two web servers in that,

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there's now a web farm?

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Well, if I go and hit it,
I'm gonna hit www1, and

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then ww2, and I'll bounce back and forth.

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Each time I upload my images,
they might show up on a different disk.

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So now, I have some scale problems, and
I have an issue with what's called node

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affinity, where I have an affinity with
one node and that's where all of my thing

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get uploaded to, and I have affinity with
this node it gets uploaded to there.

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So then I might make a shared disc,
right, and then have a mapped drive.

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But now, I've got three things,
I've got two Virtual Machines and a disc.

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Then I think, we'll maybe I'll
put the files in the database.

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Well, is that really where they belong.

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Suddenly, you start getting into
interesting problems of scale.

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You can ask yourself,
do I scale out more computers?

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Or do I scale up, bigger,
fancier computers?

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If I simply move over into the cloud, and
then try to solve those problems in those

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ways, suddenly,
I'm not really doing product catalog and

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a shopping application anymore,
now I'm doing kind of aministrivia.

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Just administrative moving
around of Virtual Machines.

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It's the same problem I had before,
except instead of moving

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around physical machines,
I'm moving around Virtual Machines.

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What you wanna do is when you move over
to the cloud, do your lift and shift.

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It's okay to do that.

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But then also think to yourself, how
can I make my application cloud native?

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So a cloud native application
doesn't write to the disk, right?

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It writes to some cloud based storage,
whether it be Amazon S3, or

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Azure storage, or some Mongo database
out there in the world, or SQL Server.

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Some mutable storage that is
available to me via an API.

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Someone goes and uploads an image, I never
write to my local disk, I send it off into

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Azure Document DB, or some where, or S3,
or whatever, it's nondenominational.

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These concepts are not specific
to Microsoft Azure, or

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Google Cloud, or Amazon.

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These are, how to architect for the cloud.

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Then I might wanna ask myself, well,
how does this web server talk to these

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business objects that then
talk to the database?

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>> Right, if I'm doing development
locally, how does that change that, right?

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I mean you're talking about
not touching the disk anymore.

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Do I just abstract that away, and

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I am actually touching the disk
when I'm developing locally?

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Or is there some way of
emulating that service locally?

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>> It all depends on
what you decide to chose.

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So, for example, if it's Mongo, and
that's gonna be your object store.

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Then you're gonna run
an instance of Mongo locally.

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And then you can have one in the cloud,
or use a third party like MLabs.

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If you're doing something
like Azure DocumentDB,

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which is kind of like a JSON
based document store.

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You could have a local
DocumentDB emulator.

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If you're gonna talk to storage,
Azure Storage or S3,

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there's an Azure Storage Emulator.

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So you can simulate your
own internal Cloud.

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But then you have to start
thinking about decoupling.

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Is the product catalog that receives these
new product images going to just talk

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directly to that?

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Or is there gonna be an intermediary?

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>> Right.

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>> Then you wanna ask yourself,
when parts of my site go down,

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does it make the entire site go down,
right?

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Netflix is really great where if parts of
Netflix goes down like adding a DVD to

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your cart or searching for a movie,
that doesn't make the movie stop playing,

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like Netflix doesn't entirely go down.

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One of the microservices
within Netflix goes down.

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So if I have a single virtual machine and
it falls over my product catalog is gone,

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my shopping cart is gone.

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But if I had a shopping cart service,
and an identity service, and

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a checkout service, and taking money
from the customer service, and

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a product catalog service.

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Can I architect my application
where they are loosely coupled?

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So that any one of those could go down,
and the site wouldn't fall over.

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>> Or you could even scale those
independently of each other, right?

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>> Exactly, exactly.

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And then that allows you to then
containerized those in the future.

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So there's levels of increasing maturity.

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Lift and shift is fine, but
you don't wanna stick with that.

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Start breaking things up into different
Virtual Machines or Platform as a Service.

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Platform as a Service is like
where an Azure app service, or

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an Azure website, sits on top of
a Virtual Machine that I chose to ignore.

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I know it exists, but
I pretend that it doesn't exist.

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Like at Heroku, or Google Cloud,
they all have Virtual Machines, but

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they hide them from us effectively.

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So if you ask yourself as you decide to
move your application into the cloud,

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do I want to know, care, and
love my Virtual Machines?

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>> [LAUGH]
>> Or

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do I really just wanna borrow them,
and not really think about them?

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It's almost like pets for hire,
like you can get a dog, but

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you gotta keep it watered,
and fed, and all that.

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I don't have a dog, so I don't know
how you have to water the dog.

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But you know what I mean?
Or

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I can just borrow my brother's dog,
and then I have a dog for hire, right?

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So Virtual Machines are not
necessarily a business I wanna be in.

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The cloud has the ability to
programmatically change to elastically

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grow both horizontally, or scale out more
Virtual Machines or up, make them bigger.

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None of that is the same as a host
where you can visit your hard drive.

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>> Yeah.

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So, if we start with the lifting and
shift, Ship or shift?

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>> Shift.
>> Shift.

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>> Lift a virtual machine and
shift it to the cloud.

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>> Right.

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So, if you start with that,
is there like a common path forward?

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You pick some part of your application,
say, we're gonna turn this into a service?

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>> So if it's a web application,
you wanna ask yourself,

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can I pick it up off the Virtual Machine,
and put the web component,

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the page serving component, whether
it's a node, or ASP.NET, or whatever.

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Can I move that into a PaaS, or
Platform as a Service, environment?

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If I was picking up a blog that runs
on a Virtual Machine, could I run that

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in Azure App Service, or in Google Cloud,
or in Amazon Lambda, or somewhere else?

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>> You might leave the database behind.

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>> And then later on,
could I move the database somewhere else?

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Then I could say, well,
using the product catalog example,

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could I somehow tease the product
catalog and shopping cart separate?

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>> Right.
>> And have shopping cart dot my website

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dot com?

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>> So instead of thinking of these
horizontal layers in your application,

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you started thinking in vertical slices.

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And think, well, maybe products.

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>> In functional slices, yeah, exactly.

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>> Cool [LAUGH].

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>> That's a way that I
think about the cloud.

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And I think that if you go out and explore
those concepts, you'll be able to apply

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them to your own applications as
you explore your learning here.

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>> All right, well, great.

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Thanks for sharing that, Scott.

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>> Thank you.

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>> Be sure to check the notes
that accompany this video for

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links to additional resources.

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Also, rate this video,
let us know how we're doing.

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Or if you have a topic that you'd like
to see us talk about in the future,

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tell us about that too.

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See you next time.

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[MUSIC]