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Beer, Bylines & Booleans: Exploring the Secret Superpowers of Non-CS Techies with Hilary Stohs-Krause
48:59 with TreehouseIn this session, Hilary Stohs-Krause discusses how non-technical backgrounds point to superpowers that are increasingly valuable for technical positions.
[MUSIC]
0:00
Hello Hilary.
0:04
>> Hello.
0:06
>> Hey Ryan here.
0:07
Nice to see you.
0:07
Welcome everyone to our next session.
0:09
My name is Ryan.
0:11
I'm the cofounder and CEO of Treehouse and
it's an honor to have all of you here.
0:13
We have an awesome speaker.
0:18
Hilary Stohs-Krause is currently based
in Madison, Wisconsin where she is
0:20
co-owner and software developer
at Ten Forward Consulting.
0:24
She came to tech by way of
a childhood website building,
0:29
a Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan
site to be exact which is awesome.
0:33
[LAUGH] She volunteers regularly with
several tech and community organization
0:37
and she co-owns Madison Women in Tech, a
local group with more than 2,000 members.
0:42
Welcome Hilary, great to have you.
0:47
>> Yeah great to be here.
0:50
As I said I'm Hilary and I'm really
excited to talk to everyone today.
0:53
So let's go ahead and get started.
0:58
So I'm gonna talk about the secret
super powers of non-CS techies.
1:03
First, if anyone wants to follow along,
the sides are available here.
1:09
I know sometimes it's easier for folks
to be able to focus and pay attention.
1:12
So I'll leave that up for just a second so
1:16
that people can access that
if they're interested.
1:18
[LAUGH] not right now.
1:27
I said persistent, didn't I?
1:33
All right, so a quick little bit
about me before we get started,
1:36
kind of why am I giving this talk?
1:39
So co-owner and full stack developer
at Ten Forward Consulting in Madison,
1:42
Wisconsin.
1:45
I tweet a lot.
1:48
If anyone's on Twitter, If you're not on
Twitter, I actually highly recommend it.
1:49
It's a great way to connect to get
answers to your questions about tech,
1:51
about finding a job or anything like that,
it can be a really helpful resource.
1:56
And just a fun fact about me.
2:02
I'm an identical twin.
2:04
And when my twin sister and
I were camping with friends once,
2:05
it came out that we were having a fight
while both asleep sleep talking.
2:10
So All right, as you might have
guessed from the title of this talk,
2:17
I don't have a computer science degree.
2:23
I have had a lot of non-tech jobs though.
2:27
For example, I have been a bartender,
I've been a radio reporter,
2:30
a kite repair which is a real job, and
a movie theater popcorn connoisseur.
2:36
So you might be thinking none of those
jobs have anything to do with my current
2:43
career.
2:47
So why did I switch?
2:49
One, better wages, right?
2:51
I think a lot of folks who are taking
Treehouse courses who are interested in
2:53
maybe moving into to the tech industry,
2:57
I know that it pays really well
compared to a lot of other industries.
2:59
Flexibility is a big part of it.
3:04
So I didn't want to always have to
work Friday and Saturday nights.
3:06
I didn't always wanna have to
work 9 to 5 either, right?
3:10
I wanted to have some more flexibility
with how I structured my day.
3:14
And then the fact that it's an in-demand
industry, and this is really the big one.
3:18
Right, a lot of jobs that I worked at
before especially journalism which was
3:22
the most recent job I had
before moving into tech,
3:25
it was just really hard to find a job and
I wanted a career that felt more stable.
3:28
And tech needs people like me, people
like anyone who's watching right now who
3:34
doesn't have a computer science degree,
they need us.
3:38
There was an estimated
918,000 unfilled tech jobs in
3:43
2019 just in the United States.
3:47
That's a lot of jobs.
3:51
There were more unfilled
tech jobs last year than
3:53
the total number of medical
doctors in the United States.
3:57
So according to the US Bureau of Labor
Statistics, there are 752,400 physicians
4:02
and surgeons in the United States and
there were 918,000 unfilled tech jobs.
4:06
So this kinda shows part of the reason
that there are so many unfilled jobs.
4:14
If we look at the side, we can see that
while liberal art, sciences, humanities,
4:19
there has been a growth in
the number of associates degrees.
4:24
And again this is using us data,
4:27
we can see that computer science which
is the blue line towards the bottom
4:29
actually took a dip and
kind of came back up a little bit.
4:34
And is starting to sort
of level out again but
4:37
it's really in the same
place it was 20 years ago.
4:40
So we are not having
enough computer science
4:43
degree graduates to
fill the needs in tech.
4:47
This is reflected, right?
4:53
This is the level of optimism for
finding skilled tech worker.
4:54
It is pretty abysmal cuz there
is just not enough people.
4:58
So even if we wanted to, we could only
hire computer science grads anyway.
5:02
And really I'm here to argue
that you wouldn't want to.
5:07
So okay, this obviously leads to the
question who do we hire instead if we're
5:10
not gonna hire computer science grads
to be programmers, for example,
5:14
who do we hire instead?
5:18
Bootcamp grad self-taught coders,
5:21
people who came to code
through untraditional means,
5:23
although I would argue it's starting
to become one of the traditional means.
5:27
So this is a number of Bootcamp grads
in the US and Canada last year 23,000.
5:31
So you'll notice that it's still quite a
bit lower than the number of unfilled tech
5:36
jobs which means there's lots of
opportunities to go around still.
5:40
So this is the growth over
the last seven years, again,
5:43
looking at US and Canada data cuz
that's what I had the most access to.
5:47
958% growth in Bootcamp grads,
that is massive.
5:53
And this isn't just like, there was
a huge boost at the beginning and
5:58
now it's kind of petered out.
6:01
This was from 2018 to 2019,
6:02
There was still a 49% growth in the number
of Bootcamp grads in the US and Canada.
6:04
Okay, so if anyone watching is
maybe in a hiring position or
6:10
I know that imposter syndrome is real.
6:15
So you might think well, okay,
if I get a Bootcamp degree or
6:18
if I wanna hire someone who has
a Bootcamp certification, what have you,
6:22
are they even qualified to do the work?
6:26
Yeah, I mean 84% of employers
say bootcampers are as or
6:28
more prepared than people with
computer science degrees.
6:33
That's sort of a survey from
the job listing site Indeed.
6:38
So let's take a look for a second and
the average bootcamp grad.
6:42
Who are we even talking about
when we talk about these folks?
6:44
So the average bootcamp
grad is about 31 years old.
6:48
Again, this is based on US and
Canadian data.
6:51
They have six years work experience,
but none of it has been in coding.
6:54
And a lot of them do have a Bachelor
of arts if they have a degree at all.
7:00
And so when I went through my bootcamp,
I believe I was 29 or 30.
7:04
I had about six years of work experience
and none of it was doing coding.
7:09
And I had a Bachelor of arts, so
7:15
reading these statistics
made me feel pretty basic.
7:17
So one thing I want to make clear kind of
towards the beginning of this talk is that
7:22
a bootcamp experience is not equivalent
to a computer science degree, right?
7:26
They teach very different skills.
7:30
They're structured very differently and so
it's not like a one to one kind of ratio.
7:32
That being said, there are a lot of
other skills that Bootcamp grads
7:42
can bring to a project or
a team or a company.
7:47
And I'm gonna use examples of Bootcamp
grads who are currently working
7:51
in the tech industry as examples to
kind of illustrate these skills.
7:55
So we're gonna explore how those sort
of common Bootcamp attributes that we
7:58
looked at.
8:03
And I would think that folks who
are self taught the demographics
8:04
are gonna be fairly similar.
8:08
We're gonna look at how those common
attributes so a lot of times folks have
8:09
a liberal arts degree and or they have
customer service or retail experience.
8:14
We're gonna look at how those experiences
benefit the companies who then
8:20
go on to hire them.
8:23
So first thing I want to talk
about is the value of perspective.
8:26
So this is Alexandra.
8:32
She's a web application developer,
a former journalist,
8:33
studied political science,
gender studies and religion.
8:35
So, again, pretty average Bootcamp grad.
8:38
And she talks about the value of the
person who is doing the programming, not
8:42
just a person to fill a chair, not someone
who could be replaced as anyone but
8:47
who you are impacts your
ability to do your job well.
8:52
And our experience matters, right?
8:56
So if we look at Alex's
background with journalism.
8:58
So being able to identify problems and
solutions, having access to different
9:01
types of resources, understanding
the needs of distinct communities,
9:05
those are really invaluable to
produce quality journalism.
9:09
And likewise, liberal arts, right?
9:13
Again, teach you some
of those same skills.
9:15
So you're exposed to a wide
variety of cultures and
9:17
viewpoints that shape who you are.
9:19
You're taught critical thinking skills,
creative approaches to problem solving.
9:21
And then when it comes to tech,
these skills even though they
9:25
have nothing to do with methods or
functions really have an impact.
9:30
So I don't know if folks are familiar
with the phrase we are not our users.
9:37
I do primarily Ruby and
Rails as my backend programming language.
9:40
In the Ruby community,
we talk about this idea a lot.
9:43
We are not our users.
9:46
So when we're building products,
9:48
we have to remember that it's
not just about us, right?
9:51
It's about a lot of people that we've
never met and may never meet, but
9:55
we have to make sure that we are doing our
best to take their needs into account.
9:58
Building solutions that work for everyone,
again, that don't just work for us.
10:04
And we've seen examples over and
over of people building solutions for
10:07
themselves basing the solution on
what they need specifically and
10:11
finding out that it has horrible
consequences for other people.
10:15
So facial recognition
software is a big one, right?
10:18
And the different way that it treats
white faces versus brown faces.
10:23
That's just one example of many.
10:28
Having a fresh perspective on options,
right?
10:31
So doing something the way we've always
done it is not gonna work in tech, right?
10:33
Tech is about finding new solutions
that actually benefit all.
10:38
And so if you're coming from a background
where you've already been in this
10:43
mindset and where you're already thinking
differently, that's a huge asset.
10:46
Next thing I wanna talk about
is everything is a draft.
10:50
So Cheryl actually works
with me at 10 forward.
10:54
And when I talked to her for
this presentation,
10:56
she talked about how her experience
studying Chinese language and
10:59
literature in school forced her to be
comfortable with being uncomfortable.
11:03
And anyone who's done any kind of tree
horse course, I'm sure you've had moments
11:09
where you're really frustrated and
you don't understand what's going on.
11:14
And that's gonna continue, right?
11:19
I mean, working in tech is all about
growth and learning and it's exciting, and
11:22
it's fun, but sometimes it's awful.
11:26
And so really being able
to come in already handling
11:28
that kind of challenge
is really beneficial.
11:33
So we're gonna talk a little
bit about refactoring and
11:38
how that applies in other careers and
then also in tech.
11:41
So in liberal arts,
you write a ton of papers, and
11:44
it's basically a constant
state of refactoring.
11:47
Same thing for service sector, right?
11:53
So maybe you're a server and
you have a table of seven.
11:56
And you're under the special but
someone already ordered it.
12:00
You didn't know you're out a specialty
went to the kitchen to put the order in.
12:02
So you have to go back,
figure out what they want instead.
12:05
And then someone's food comes out and it's
slightly overcooked and they wanna replace
12:08
it, they wanna talk to managers,
or something else needs to happen.
12:11
Then the kids spit their
soda all over the table and
12:14
then the restaurant starts on fire.
12:16
This is not a true story,
at least not all of these at once.
12:19
But the idea is that working service,
working in retail, any kind of job like
12:22
that, you're constantly having to
refactor in the sense of, okay,
12:27
something new happened, how do I adjust?
12:31
Something has change or not used to be,
how can I adapt to that?
12:34
It's really like working in service is
essentially constantly refactoring,
12:38
adapting to things that
are happening in real time.
12:42
And then in tech,
there's obviously a lot of refactoring.
12:47
So I went and I looked at a couple
of our GitHub repositories,
12:49
and I looked at my total
contribution statistics.
12:54
And so
there's the code that I added in green and
13:00
the code that I've removed in red.
13:04
And so we can see yes,
I've added more code than I took away but
13:06
you take away a lot of code.
13:09
There's a lot of refactoring
when you're in check.
13:11
So I've just got some various
examples of doing this.
13:13
And then my favorite one, which I don't
even know what project this was, and
13:18
this this was actually not me.
13:22
This was a co-worker, but someone only
added 5,842 lines of code to a project,
13:23
but they removed 179,000 lines of code.
13:30
Constantly changing based
on new information or
13:37
how people are using things,
it's all refactoring essentially
13:40
All right, our next lesson is gonna
talk about delegating to meet deadlines.
13:47
And so this is another big one, right?
13:52
So this is Andrew and he was
a teacher before he moved into tech.
13:56
He talks about how his teaching skills
help him to interact with his team in
14:01
a way that leaves everyone feeling
competent, confident, and cared for.
14:05
And I don't think we can ask for
more than that, really.
14:10
And so let's talk about delegation
again using Andrew as an example.
14:13
So in his previous career as
an educator you have to delegate
14:16
with administrators or
they're gonna delegate to you, right?
14:19
Working with unruly pupils,
student teachers,
14:23
what is the student teacher gonna work on?
14:26
What are you gonna work on?
14:28
And then parents, right?
14:29
There's just a lot of different moving
parts you have to work with that some will
14:30
delegate to you, you will delegate to
others, but really working together to
14:34
make sure that everything is happening
as successfully as possible.
14:38
The same is true again, if we go
back to the service sector, right?
14:43
So, if your server, if we use that example
of a server, you're working with a host.
14:46
If you're working in a place that
serves alcohol, you're working with
14:52
the bartender, the chef who actually
makes the food that you serve,
14:55
you have to coordinate with
the patrons themselves.
14:58
So, making sure that everyone has their
needs met, making sure people are sitting
15:00
in a table that works for them if anyone
has different needs, things like that.
15:04
So just a lot of working with different
groups of people to ensure that you
15:07
are successful.
15:10
And we see the same patterns
play out in tech as well.
15:12
So project manager, right?
15:16
Maybe you're gonna work with a team
that has a designer that you have to
15:19
coordinate with.
15:22
Quality assurance, doing testing,
making sure that your code works well.
15:22
Clients, if you're working on a product
that has your clients or users,
15:26
there's just a lot of different moving
parts no matter what your role is in tech.
15:31
And especially when you first
start out in a new career path,
15:37
there's just a lot you can't
do by yourself, right?
15:41
And that makes sense and
people expect that because you're new and
15:45
you're learning.
15:48
And it just takes time to
build up that experience.
15:49
And so with that in mind,
if you're coming to a new company and
15:52
you already have these skills,
this adaptability, the delegation,
15:56
if you come with those skills
intact from previous experiences.
16:01
That's really going to help you to do
that growth and to advance a lot more
16:05
quickly than if you didn't have
any experience doing that before.
16:10
Hey, lesson 4,
feedback is a feature, not a bug.
16:18
So this is Jacob and
16:25
he has a PhD in philosophy
before he went into programming.
16:26
And he talks about how
the communication-oriented aspect of
16:30
his liberal arts education has been
essential to his work as a developer.
16:36
So we're talking about feedback loops.
16:42
And again, looking at Jacob's experiences
and kind of how that shaped his ability
16:44
to navigate feedback loops and
then how those play out in tech as well.
16:49
So in liberal arts, I can papers but
like really lots of papers and
16:55
anyone who has a liberal arts degree
knows exactly what I'm talking about.
16:59
And then in Jacob's case
specifically group discussion.
17:04
So there was a lot of group
discussion in his philosophy classes.
17:06
Look at the service sector,
17:11
I don't think everyone pretty much all
the time has an opinion about something.
17:13
If you're under-performing
in the service sector,
17:19
you don't have to wait until a weekly or
monthly one on one to find out.
17:22
Someone will tell you immediately and
they might not do it in the nicest way.
17:25
And so that really builds a thick skin and
ability to accept and
17:30
hear negative feedback and analyze it,
like, find out yes, this is true,
17:33
I should be doing this differently or
that's a great idea,
17:37
incorporate that, or like, no,
I think I'm doing this right and
17:40
I'm just gonna let that slide because
I feel confident in what I'm doing.
17:44
And that's a really, really useful skill.
17:48
Now let's look at tech.
17:52
So how do feedback loops play out in tech?
17:53
So code review is a big one,
if you're doing programming,
17:57
almost certainly someone is going to be
looking at the code that you write before
18:00
it gets pushed farther down the pipeline.
18:04
If you have several stakeholders,
18:07
you can probably be demoing any changes
to them and with some kind of regularity.
18:09
So that's another way that you're
getting feedback from folks who
18:15
are directly involved.
18:17
Again, quality assurance testing.
18:19
The best programmers in
the world still write bugs.
18:22
And even if you're really good at
testing your code before it gets to QA,
18:25
they're professionals, right?
18:28
Their job is to find things that we
might have overlooked as programmers.
18:30
And so that's another way that
we get feedback on our work.
18:33
And then user response.
18:36
So when it finally gets to our end users,
18:37
they're gonna have feedback as
well on the work that we've done.
18:40
And so again, this can be really hard for
folks who come into any industry, but
18:44
specifically tech,
18:49
who come in without having experienced
these kinds of feedback loops before.
18:50
It can be really
challenging because people
18:54
are constantly looking at your work and
telling you how you did.
18:57
And so again like if you come from
a background where you worked in
19:02
service where you had a large degree
where you had any kind of job,
19:06
or feedback was a part
of what you were doing.
19:11
That gives you a leg up coming into
tech because you're able to actually
19:15
make use of that feedback in a way
that helps you instead of hurts you.
19:21
And then lesson number 5,
19:29
and I think this is probably one of
the biggest one that I see in tech.
19:30
And again, maybe at this point it's good
to say that this isn't to say that people
19:34
with computer science degrees
don't have these skills, right?
19:38
Because lots of folks who are in college
are also working in service to pay for
19:41
school, or things like that.
19:45
So, this isn't like a mutually
exclusive kind of thing.
19:47
But in my experience and
also from research that I've done and
19:52
all of that, these are skills that I have
found working at a company that hires
19:55
a lot of boot camp grads and
sort of non traditional coders.
20:00
These are skills that are more likely
to accompany those non-traditional
20:04
folks than people who are fresh out
of their CS degree, in my experience.
20:10
And a big one that comes from there is
empathy, and this is huge in tech and
20:17
it does not get enough attention,
20:20
I don't think, although that is
starting to get better, which is great.
20:22
So again, we talked earlier about that
concept of we are not our users, right?
20:27
Bootcamp grads and self-taught
coders are more likely to already
20:32
grasp this process because there's
a good chance that they don't fit
20:37
the typical mold of the white cishet
male tech worker in at least one way.
20:42
So 30% of bootcamp grads,
again, this is US and
20:47
Canadian data, are people of color,
37% are women and
20:52
nonbinary, 41% don't
have a college degree.
20:57
And these are not typical
statistics if you just grabbed
21:02
your average full-time check worker.
21:06
And so by coming into a space, having
lived an experience where we already have
21:10
been an outsider in probably
lots of situations and
21:15
then coming into a space that needs
more outsiders, it is so valuable.
21:18
That being said, right,
I just talked about how those of
21:25
us who are bootcamp, grads or
self-taught coders are not
21:30
likely to mirror a lot of our
coworkers at future tech jobs.
21:35
And so that can be tough, right?
21:41
That can be really hard.
21:43
I was the first full-time non-white dude
21:44
[LAUGH] hired at my
company when I started.
21:48
And now we're, I think, 75% women and
a third women of color, and
21:52
it's gotten way better.
21:56
But it's really tough to
be one of the first ones.
21:58
And so this section is kind of aimed at
anyone who has hiring influence, but also
22:01
I think is useful when you're evaluating
companies that you wanna work at, and
22:06
think, are they doing
some of these things?
22:11
If I suggest this, what is their reaction?
22:14
Because that will tell you a lot
about the kind of company it is and
22:16
if they're willing or able to help
you be successful at your new job.
22:19
So some best practices that we found
at Ten Forward over the years,
22:25
hiring a lot of bootcamp grads,
self-taught coders,
22:29
people without even high school diplomas.
22:33
What are ways that we found we can support
them to ensure that they're able to
22:37
succeed and to feel supported?
22:42
So mentorship is a big one.
22:45
We have internship and
apprenticeship programs.
22:47
And our interns and
apprentices meet with at least one
22:49
existing team member every week for
22:54
half hour or an hour, and
that space is sacrosanct.
22:57
So no meetings to be
scheduled over it like that.
23:03
If someone's out sick, it's rescheduled
because that time is really important to
23:07
just give someone an outlet so that
they feel like they have someone to talk
23:10
to that they can ask questions that might
make them feel silly asking someone else,
23:14
although there are no silly questions.
23:17
Structure is a big one, right?
23:21
If you come into a new industry and
you're the only person who looks like you,
23:22
and everyone's been programming
ten years longer than you have,
23:26
that can be really intimidating.
23:30
And if someone just says, hey, here's
a project, see what you can do on it,
23:32
there are some of us who
thrive in that situation.
23:36
But a lot of us, that's really challenging
and can be really intimidating.
23:39
And so we really like to
provide a lot of structure.
23:43
So these weeks,
this is what you're working on.
23:45
These are specific stories
you're gonna do or
23:48
these are specific ways
you're gonna contribute.
23:49
This is your point of contact
if you have questions.
23:51
This is dedicated pairing times you're
gonna work directly with someone else.
23:53
Really just making it clear,
where can they find answers to questions?
23:59
Who is the best person to talk to?
24:03
What are they gonna be working on?
24:04
What is the value or
the purpose of what they're working on?
24:06
What are they gonna learn from it?
24:08
And I find that that is really
helpful making people feel like their
24:10
contributions are valued, and also that
they can own what they're doing and
24:14
actually learn from it.
24:19
And then hiring in pairs.
24:23
So sometimes I will tell people this and
they kind of blanch,
24:25
it's hard enough to find one,
how am I gonna find multiple?
24:29
But I think this is really important
because again, if you're the only,
24:34
insert whatever, at your company,
the only person with disabilities,
24:39
the only person of color,
the only mom, it can be really tough.
24:44
And so, especially when we
were still mostly white dudes,
24:50
we tried to make sure that we were
bringing people on together so
24:56
that you weren't the only
one who is different.
25:02
You weren't the only one who was new,
right?
25:06
You weren't the only junior,
you weren't the only, insert.
25:09
Again, it's really kind of whatever.
25:12
Just feeling like you're not alone really
has such an impact on how successful any
25:14
of us can be, right?
25:19
It's feeling like we're in it together.
25:20
And then setting clear expectations.
25:26
This is another really big one.
25:27
This kinda goes back to that
idea of structure, right?
25:28
So what am I responsible for?
25:31
What happens if I'm
struggling to get it done?
25:34
Who do I talk to?
25:36
What resources do I have access to?
25:37
Really making it clear what juniors
in particular are expected,
25:39
what's expected of them.
25:44
And so I have a link here at
tinyurl.com/ten-forward-ranks, and
25:46
that's just an example of how
we've done that at Ten Forward.
25:50
And so
we have clearly delineated ranks in there,
25:53
irrespective of the type
of work you're doing.
25:57
It's just based on experience and
ability and interest,
26:01
because not everybody wants
to continually move up.
26:06
But if you do,
we wanted to create a clear way for
26:10
you to know how to accomplish that.
26:13
And so it lists the different expectations
for each role, the responsibilities, and
26:16
then also the privileges.
26:19
And so folks can really sort of
choose their own adventure and
26:20
craft a career that gets them
the challenges that they want and
26:24
also the benefits that they want without
feeling like they have to be shoehorned
26:27
into someone else's idea of
what a good job looks like.
26:32
And then patience.
26:38
And so this one, again, this section is
kind of aimed at folks who are 're hiring,
26:40
or if you're working with bootcamp
grads or self-taught coders,
26:43
how you can be more supportive of
them in your work environment.
26:45
But I think this is also really
important for us to remember too, right?
26:48
Is to be patient with ourselves
when we're starting new careers.
26:51
I remember when I first joined Ten Forward
about five and a half years ago
26:54
as an intern, if I couldn't figure
something out, I just felt awful.
26:59
I felt like the worst.
27:05
I was like, everyone knows more than me.
27:06
Everyone has to spend so
much time working with me.
27:09
I'm not contributing at all.
27:10
I can't believe they're
paying me to do this.
27:13
And that's just not true.
27:16
I mean, better or worse,
27:19
we're in a capitalist society here
in the United States at least.
27:20
If you have a job and people want to see
you succeed, it's because they value you.
27:27
Sometimes I think it's easy for
27:33
us to forget our own value because we just
compare ourselves to everyone around us.
27:34
And if you're taking Treehouse courses and
27:38
you're looking to break
into tech in some way,
27:41
you probably will know less than everyone
else at your first job, and that's okay.
27:43
And people expect that, right?
27:48
You're there to learn and to grow.
27:50
And I find that keeping a weekly journal
of one thing you learned that week that
27:51
you can write down and then looking back
at that after your first month, your first
27:57
two months, and it really helps you to
realize that you are learning a lot.
28:02
It's just sometimes hard for
us to see our own growth.
28:08
And so
we have to be patient with ourselves.
28:10
And also, if you're hiring or working with
bootcamp grads or self-taught coders,
28:12
we have to be patient with them too,
right?
28:17
It's really tough to break
into a new industry.
28:19
And one of the best ways to support people
as well is to foster an environment where
28:22
questions are encouraged.
28:26
So there are no bad questions.
28:27
It's amazing, like I'm a senior programmer
now, I've been doing it for five and
28:30
a half years.
28:33
And whenever I pair with a junior,
I learn something.
28:34
So maybe it's something I used to know
that I forgot, because we can only fit so
28:37
much in our heads at one point.
28:40
Or maybe it's something I never knew.
28:42
Maybe it's something new that they
researched cuz I couldn't figure out how
28:43
to do something and I was just doing it
the same way I'd always been doing it.
28:46
So there are no silly questions,
and in an ideal workplace,
28:49
we're all learning from
each other all the time,
28:52
no matter how much experience
someone does or doesn't have.
28:55
That's actually one of my favorite
things about working in tech.
28:58
And then last thing because
it bears frequent repeating,
29:04
empathy is everything, right?
29:08
So we have to give empathy to ourselves,
29:10
especially now with everything going on
in the world, empathy to our coworkers,
29:13
and empathy, especially to our new hires,
no matter what their background is.
29:18
So help the folks that you work with,
work with the folks you hire to help you,
29:24
because the rising tide
does raise all boats.
29:28
And as we've just talked about in
this presentation, bootcamp grads,
29:30
self-taught coders bring a lot of value to
your company straight from the beginning.
29:34
Leveling up someone's tech skills is
relatively easy compared to teaching them
29:40
all the other stuff that they already
know that they're bringing to the table.
29:43
So thanks, that's my presentation.
29:51
You can find me on Twitter.
29:53
If anyone has any
questions about anything,
29:55
I'm gonna answer some questions now.
29:57
But if anyone has any specific questions
or you just wanna talk, like I love, love,
29:58
love, love doing virtual coffees,
I'm a huge extrovert,
30:02
so Pandemic life has been really hard.
30:05
So like seriously,
30:08
email me, I know some folks have
already reached out on LinkedIn.
30:09
I'm a little behind on my email,
but that made me so happy, and
30:12
I'm really excited to
connect with all of you.
30:15
And again,
if you want to review the sides the.
30:17
The link is right there as well.
30:20
So I'll leave that up for just a minute.
30:23
And then I have some scope
here quick item citation.
30:25
So again, if you want to see
where I got some of that data,
30:28
you can just look at the slides.
30:30
And, yeah, so then I'm going to answer
some questions that have come in.
30:33
All right, do I see the career
paths of non computer science
30:43
grads proceeding at the same or different
pace after they are in the industry?
30:47
I think it really just depends.
30:55
I'm trying to think of the best
way to answer this question.
31:01
So One thing I say a lot to folks.
31:03
So I mentor at a local boot camp
here in Madison run by the YWCA.
31:09
And a lot of times I get asked like,
Well, how do I find my first job right,
31:15
which is the hard one.
31:19
Arguably the hardest is
finding your first job.
31:21
And, we'll talk a lot about how
the type of environment can make
31:24
a big difference on the rest of
your career in the industry.
31:28
I mean, if your first job is terrible,
31:33
it doesn't mean that you're never
gonna get a good job in tech, right?
31:34
That's not what I'm trying to say.
31:36
But if you're in a position,
financially, emotionally where you can
31:37
Take some time and be a little more
picky about the first job you take.
31:42
I think that can,
that can be really helpful going forward.
31:49
So, for example, when I graduated from
my bootcamp, I knew what I didn't want,
31:53
because I'd had jobs before.
31:57
So I knew from those previous experiences,
the kind of environment that wasn't really
31:59
conducive to me doing my best work and
conversely, what.
32:04
Types of culture environment I wanted that
would really make me feel I could thrive.
32:07
So that was a part of my job search,
32:14
was I wanted a company that
did a lot of community work.
32:17
I wanted one that was dedicated
to diversity and inclusivity.
32:20
I knew I wanted to work at a consulting
company because I wanted to work on a lot
32:23
of projects.
32:27
So I think and
I was lucky that I was in a position
32:28
where I have a little bit of
money left over after bootcamp.
32:30
I could stay with family if I needed to,
while I found a good fit.
32:34
I didn't have any kids,
right, I was healthy.
32:38
So I was able to do that.
32:40
I think it's helpful even if you really
kind of just need to take the first
32:43
job you can get which I
totally understand like,
32:47
more power to you thinking about
as much as you can ahead of time.
32:49
The kind of work you want
to do is really helpful.
32:53
So, do you want to work for
a product company?
32:55
Do you want to work for a startup?
32:58
Do you want to do consulting,
do you want to work for a big corporation?
32:59
Or do you want to be part of a tiny tech
team at an otherwise non-tech company?
33:04
That kind of thing.
33:08
And maybe you have no idea and
that's fine, and
33:09
you'll get your first job and
you kind of figure it out as you go.
33:12
I think one benefit is that,
33:16
C Esther grades are perhaps more
shoehorned into specific types of jobs.
33:18
Like the kind of jobs that say you have
to have a computer science degree.
33:23
Whereas, when you have a boot camp degree,
especially with whatever other
33:27
experience you have or if you've self
taught on applications like Treehouse.
33:32
That in a lot of ways,
I think makes you more marketable.
33:39
So like when I was hired at Ford,
33:42
one of the things they highlighted
was that I used to be a journalist.
33:43
And so they said,
we have no one on staff we can write,
33:46
we really want a company blog.
33:49
Is that something you'd be interested in.
33:50
And of course, I was like,
that was a great fit for
33:52
me because then I got to combine,
my previous career and
33:54
my new career as part of my job,
which is really great.
33:57
So It might look different.
34:00
But in terms of pacing, I think it just
depends on the company where you're
34:03
working and
the kind of growth that you want because,
34:08
some people want to, like everybody wants
different things out of their career.
34:11
So it really depends on what you
want as well and then having the.
34:16
Keeping in mind that because there are so
many unfilled jobs in tech and
34:24
especially now where remote work
is even more of a possibility.
34:27
If you're at a job that
makes you really unhappy and
34:30
that you feel like he's not allowing
you to grow, there are other jobs.
34:33
And like it's easier for me to say
that as a white person, obviously.
34:37
But there are a lot of
unfilled tech jobs and
34:41
almost all companies these days
have some kind of tech component.
34:43
And so really like keeping your mind open
to to the kind of job that you want can be
34:48
really helpful.
34:51
I think that was a really
long rambling answer,
34:52
but I hope some of that was helpful.
34:55
I'm leaving the banking and
finance industry.
34:59
How would you be able to incorporate
my experience as an industry?
35:01
That's a great question.
35:04
Fintech like financial tech is huge.
35:05
I mean that's just a really big
subset of the tech industry.
35:08
And so
I think it's similar like if you had,
35:13
Medical experience and
wanna get into tech.
35:16
Med tech is huge.
35:20
Biotech.
There are so
35:21
many subsets of tech as
a broad spectrum that,
35:22
speaking as someone who does hiring,
I would love if someone came in and
35:25
they already had experience related
to the core of what we're building.
35:30
Like that's phenomenal.
35:35
So if you enjoyed aspects of banking and
finance, yeah,look at FinTech and see what
35:37
kind of opportunities here because I think
that would only be a boost to your resume.
35:42
Is age a very big factor?
35:49
I'm 45 and finished my first tech degree.
35:50
Yeah, I wish I could say no.
35:53
Unfortunately, we are not at
that point in our society.
35:55
And there are some places who will
almost certainly consciously or
35:58
not engage in ageism when they see that,
36:03
from my experience, so
our current apprentice at 10 forward.
36:05
Is in her 40s.
36:10
And that never really crossed
my mind except in good ways.
36:13
So if anything, it was like okay, well,
36:20
I know from her resume like she's
done different types of work.
36:22
She knows what she likes.
36:25
She knows what she's doing.
36:26
She has again all of that experience
that she's bringing to the table.
36:29
So even if her tech skills are more junior
level, her work skills, if you will
36:32
are a lot higher, than maybe a 17 year
old Junior that we would hire, right?
36:38
So, the answer is unfortunately Yes.
36:45
Some companies that.
36:48
That might hurt you.
36:50
I would argue you probably don't want
to work at those companies anyway.
36:52
But also, it's easy to say that
it is someone who has a job,
36:55
rather than someone who's looking for
their first job.
36:58
So, I think just really like trying
to turn that to your advantage.
37:01
Especially in interviews,
you know talk about yeah,
37:07
like I know I'm like
just address it right?
37:10
Like I know I'm not maybe the average
person you would think of for
37:11
a junior position but
like here's what I can bring to the table.
37:15
Here's why I'm going to be awesome.
37:18
And here's why I think you would really
do the company service to hire me.
37:19
I just really try to
turn that into an asset.
37:22
How long did it take you
to learn to program?
37:27
So [LAUGH] they go on to say, I still
feel like I'm not picking things up.
37:29
I almost cried the other day.
37:36
Like real talk I almost cried the other
day because I could not figure
37:40
something out.
37:43
And I think part of that is being remote.
37:44
Again, I'm an extrovert part of it is like
pairing is just different like our company
37:46
normally is in the office.
37:49
And so
pairing remotely is still something.
37:51
I'm getting used to, And I think the more
senior you get the fewer people,
37:53
there are on the team who can necessarily
help you with the really tricky
37:56
problems, right?
37:59
For some stuff just is
a matter of experience.
38:00
So there is no right or
wrong way to code and there is no I mean,
38:02
there are things that
are always that you're always
38:08
going to pick up faster than other people.
38:13
There are things that other people
are going to pick up faster than you.
38:17
There are things that you're going to
pick up faster yourself than other parts,
38:19
right like maybe sequel, just like really
makes sense to you and you really love it.
38:24
But CSS is like what I what
is even going on right now.
38:30
And that's fine.
38:33
Right?
I think, I think learning to code is hard.
38:36
And I think we don't
talk about that enough.
38:40
Right.
I mean, it's like, it's, it's,
38:43
it's like learning a foreign language.
38:46
I wouldn't be able to learn
Arabic In two months.
38:48
Like that just won't happen.
38:52
And we all learn and grow at different
paces, and in different ways.
38:54
And so my boot camp was three months
full time, and I mean full time.
38:58
Like it would have been really
hard to have a side job, or kids,
39:05
it was a lot of work.
39:09
And I would say it was probably
six months into my first job
39:11
before I actually started
to feel like I got it.
39:16
[LAUGH] But when that happens,
it's such a great feeling.
39:19
So I would encourage you to just
like hold out and you'll get there.
39:23
It might take a while, but that's okay
because then it's gonna feel that much
39:27
more powerful when you when you do
feel like you're starting to get it.
39:32
Let's see here.
39:36
Which boot camp did you go to
unfortunately, my bootcamp is no more.
39:37
I went to Omaha code school and
I loved it.
39:40
It was such a good experience.
39:43
Our class was like half women.
39:44
I don't, this is a while ago, but
I want to say it was like Of fourth-third
39:47
people of color, it really did match
those statistics we saw earlier, right?
39:52
And it was just such
a supportive environment,
39:58
they really encouraged vulnerability and
40:00
letting us be ourselves and Yeah,
it was really great I really loved it.
40:02
And there was a lot of really
good boot camps out there,
40:06
actually if anyone's interested,
feel free to hit me up, I have some
40:10
blog posts about how to pick a boot camp
that I would be happy to share with folks.
40:14
This a question I get a lot, how do I
know what to study, what to focus on?
40:19
I think the big thing is
just not trying to focus on
40:24
everything, especially the beginning.
40:29
So when I'm hiring, if someone that
was in Java Script really well,
40:33
and maybe a little bit
of back end language,
40:38
like ruby on rails is what we use and
then a little bit of rails, that's fine.
40:41
I wanna see that you are able to learn
a thing and I can teach you the rest,
40:47
I can teach you what you need
to know to work at this company.
40:51
But if you come in and you know a tiny
little bit of this, and a tiny little bit
40:55
of that, it makes it hard for me to
know if you can stick with something.
40:59
So, for me, when I was deciding what
programming languages to learn,
41:03
I thought about the kind of work that I
wanted to do, so I knew that I wanted to
41:06
work with startups and
I wanted to do full stack as a programmer.
41:09
And so I wanted a boot camp that had,
41:12
front end and back ends.
41:18
And then for the back end, I chose Ruby on
Rails because doing research I saw that
41:22
a lot of startups use Ruby and Rails cuz
it's a language that enables you to build
41:26
something quickly and get something up
quickly, so that was why I chose those.
41:31
There really is no bad thing to focus on,
I would maybe shy away from the trendy
41:36
new frameworks, because a lot of those
end up falling by the wayside, but
41:41
other that, it is a lot like
learning a foreign language.
41:46
So, like I took Spanish for a bunch of
years and then I started taking French and
41:49
French was so much easier because
I'd already taken Spanish.
41:53
So once you learn the syntax of
a programming language, once you have that
41:56
sort of core understanding of
how programming languages work,
42:00
It's that much easier to then transfer
those skills to a different language or
42:04
framework or what have you.
42:08
So I think the main thing is,
try to think about what you wanna do and
42:09
which languages have frameworks
might help you get there.
42:14
But in the end really just picking one or
two things, and
42:17
focusing on them and
getting to know them as well as you can,
42:22
I think that's the main advice
I would probably give for that.
42:27
I'm actually gonna stop sharing to
see how we're doing on time, okay?
42:32
I am changing from the education field and
getting to web involvement,
42:40
Awesome!, any idea how to merge
teaching and web development and
42:46
then also they mentioned
that they're older as well.
42:51
So, we talked a little bit about the age
one earlier, I think really just try to
42:55
turn that into an asset and then, teaching
I mean, teaching is such a useful one.
43:00
So I was just at a different conference
and we actually had a slack channel at
43:06
the conference for people who are in tech
as a second or third or fourth career.
43:12
And it was really cool to
hear people's stories and
43:17
there were a lot of educators there.
43:19
And, a lot of tech is teaching so
whether it's teaching other people,
43:21
that you're working with on your staff,
whether it's teaching your
43:26
users about your product and
how to use it, whether it's,
43:31
working with, like a product person
on why the feature they're asking for
43:35
maybe isn't feasible based on,
time constraints, things like that.
43:40
There's a lot of educating in tech,
and so, if someone comes in,
43:45
again this is speaking from my experience,
but if someone come in and
43:49
say, hey you know you used to be
teacher and now I'm working in tech and
43:52
I'm like that awesome, that's great
because we have a wide range of skills and
43:56
abilities and experience levels.
44:00
My company and a lot of companies too,
44:02
and so having someone who are ready knows
how to concisely convey information and
44:04
break things down into smaller pieces,
that's invaluable.
44:09
So I think that's great and there
are a lot of companies that do education
44:13
based technology we work with multiple
limits and forwards so there's
44:18
lots of opportunities too, if you want
to work in tech with an education Focus.
44:24
>> Hello Hillary,
I thought I would just join you for
44:29
a second while we close your session.
44:33
I really, really appreciated your
thoughts and your encouragement and
44:36
you sharing your knowledge, thank you.
44:41
We'll give you all any second more
to ask any questions before we go,
44:44
I don't know if you caught
this question from Beth about
44:50
the blogs you mentioned,
did you already answer that?
44:56
>> No, I didn't, Yeah,
I wrote a couple of blog posts,
45:01
because I had a lot people asking me some
of the same questions over and over, like,
45:04
how do I get a job after I graduate my
boot camp and how do I pick which boot
45:09
camp is right for me?, So
I wrote a couple of blog posts about that.
45:13
I could maybe find the links right
away and put them in the chat,
45:16
It probably wouldn't take
me more than a second.
45:19
>> Yeah, you go ahead and
do that for a second and
45:21
I'll look at the messages in the chat,
thanks so much everyone for joining us.
45:24
[SOUND] Thanks everyone for
joining us and asking great questions,
45:29
Beth is asking a question
that I can probably answer.
45:36
Best says, treehouse tech degree or
treehouse track.
45:41
The tech degree is a lot closer to what
you'd imagine a boot camp is like there's
45:47
projects, there's a slack community, those
projects are you get feedback on them and
45:50
the whole goal is to get you ready for
that first job whereas a track,
45:53
does not have projects does
not have a slack community.
45:56
But there's a big price difference,
45:59
so tech degree is 199 per month and
46:04
courses is only $29 per month, so
46:08
there's a big price difference on that.
46:13
But we try to make tech degree drastically
more affordable than a boot camp,
46:19
so we're hoping that
makes it more accessible.
46:25
Okay, cool you posted those two links.
46:30
>> And it looks like there's a question,
is there a hiring preference for
46:32
people who are self taught
versus a boot camp?
46:35
Again, some places will have a preference,
46:37
like some places especially if it's more
of a corporation or like an older company,
46:40
they might be a little more traditional
about and want some kind of certification
46:45
that they can point to so
that they can say, okay, they know things.
46:50
I know for us a big part of it is
just do you have examples of work
46:55
you've done before, is a big part of it.
46:59
So maybe it's a website about
how awesome your dog is,
47:03
or maybe you did some volunteer,
website work for your church or
47:06
your uncle's business,
like it really doesn't matter what it is.
47:10
Maybe it wasn't even, quote unquote
real maybe you just built like a tic tac
47:15
toe game, and you put the code on GitHub.
47:19
If you didn't attend a boot camp,
even if you did, like, I know speaking
47:22
from experience, we really look for
examples of work that you've done.
47:27
So, anything you can put on GitHub to show
that you've written code that's super
47:32
helpful.
47:37
>> Amen.
47:38
Yeah, I agree with that,
we always encourage folks and
47:39
I think you said this already, but to pick
something that they're passionate about,
47:42
build a project around that, almost
that first one could be just donating
47:47
your time to your favorite
nonprofit building them a project.
47:52
Then after that,
you then could even start charging for
47:56
your first simple App for a local business
so those are all great ideas here.
47:59
I appreciate you also sharing just
the facts around computer science jobs and
48:04
computer science graduates and the need,
for more amazing folks in the industry.
48:09
So I think we can call it a day there,
I wanna to thank you so much, Hillary for
48:14
making time to do this, you did a good
job managing your cat, I thought.
48:19
>> Yeah, I mean, I could have locked them
up but then they'd cry the whole time,
48:24
>> Yeah.
48:28
>> Pandemic life doesn't do.
48:29
>> That doesn't work, but
thank you so much for
48:30
spending your time I
really appreciate it for
48:32
all of you attending we really appreciate
your time and, and thank you for coming.
48:35
Make sure to take part in networking, It's
a really valuable way to meet new people,
48:39
you just click on the networking
link on the left.
48:45
It's a great thing to do during
the pandemic, meet people and
48:48
make connections.
48:51
So Hilary, thanks again and
we'll see you next time.
48:52
>> Yeah, thanks for having me.
48:56
>> Take care, bye.
48:57
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