Episode 3: Imposter Syndrome

Welcome to the def team show, my name is James. 0:00 In this episode we're going to be talking about imposter syndrome. 0:02 Joining me is Kenneth Love. 0:06 Kenneth is of teacher here a treehouse 0:08 a jangle Software Foundation board member and active member of the Python community. 0:10 Welcome to the show, Kenneth. 0:16 >> Thanks for having me, James. 0:18 [SOUND] >> So 0:19 to start off, let's start by just defining what is imposter syndrome. 0:20 >> Sure, so imposter syndrome is this idea that you shouldn't be in the community or 0:26 the position that you're in because you feel like you're not good enough or 0:32 you're not accomplished enough for that position. 0:36 But really, you have the talents and the skills and the abilities to be there, and 0:39 so it's feeling like an impostor when you really shouldn't. 0:43 >> Okay, so if I was learning a new technology and so 0:47 I'm brand new to that thing >> And 0:50 I might like have a lack of self-confidence because I'm not or 0:53 as familiar with that as maybe I should be is that different than impostor syndrome. 0:55 >> Yeah, I mean what makes impostor syndrome where you're actually 1:00 feeling like an imposter is that you know the things. 1:04 You're perfectly capable of doing it, right. 1:09 So when you're a beginner and 1:12 you're just learning something you're just breaking into an area. 1:13 Even if you're an experienced developer but you're learning a new language or 1:15 a new framework or a new tool. 1:18 That's totally different because you're brand new to that. 1:20 >> Right. You're expected to have some sort of 1:22 discomfort. 1:25 >> Yeah. 1:26 >> And maybe unfamiliarity. 1:26 >> Right. 1:28 >> But in processing dramas where you know all the bits and 1:29 pieces you know all the tools but >> But 1:32 you still feel like you're not supposed to be there. 1:35 >> Right, so you're not acknowledging your own success. 1:36 >> Right. >> Or your own skills, 1:40 the things you can actually do. 1:41 There's a difference or 1:43 a delta between reality and what you think you're you're capable of. 1:44 >> Yeah, lots of times people discount their own achievements, right? 1:49 Somebody will have built something at a hackathon or 1:51 they'll have built something by personally falling in a tutorial and 1:54 the feel like well I didn't really do it right. 1:57 I had home I was a hackathon so my team helped me, or I read it's a tutorial so 2:00 you know the person who wrote that guide helped me. 2:04 >> So you're downplaying you know what it is that you accomplished. 2:05 >> Exactly you're cutting yourself down right. 2:10 And really that's obviously not good to do, right. 2:13 You should acknowledge your own 2:16 accomplishments, >> [LAUGH] 2:17 >> But that also is what leaves that 2:19 feeling of being an imposter. 2:20 >> Okay, so what are, I mean so that sounds like a kind of a tough problem. 2:21 So what are the effects of that, 2:26 like on one's person, if you're suffering from an imposter syndrome? 2:28 >> Sure, you know obviously if you're disposed to having other emotional 2:32 problems right. 2:37 Maybe you suffer from depression or things like that imposter syndrome could make 2:38 that worse, but also it often leads to feelings of increased pressure to perform. 2:42 So yeah I use that library but really I should write my own library that does 2:47 that or I should write my own middleware or whatever. 2:52 And that can lead to things like burnout if it goes on long enough to where you've 2:56 never written enough stuff or 3:00 produced enough stuff to feel like you're good enough to be where you are. 3:02 And you just exhaust yourself. 3:07 >> Interesting, so you actually do more than maybe what is necessary and 3:09 you just keep pushing it and 3:13 pushing it because you feel like you kind of have to in order to do it right. 3:14 >> Yeah, yeah, I mean, it almost leads into like a workaholic syndrome kind of 3:19 thing, right, or it can't. 3:23 Depends on the person. 3:24 Different people are going to experience this in different ways. 3:26 >> So if I if I work on a team and 3:28 I have imposter syndrome, what are the effects on my team? 3:31 Lots of times that can be, they can be different things, right? 3:35 It's gonna depend on you, 3:39 it's gonna depend on the team, but it can definitely damage the morale of the team. 3:39 If you have somebody who's maybe always downplaying their own abilities or 3:43 talking down about themselves then that can lead to where the entire team. 3:48 Either they start to feel bad because maybe, they compare themselves to that 3:53 person and they feel like they're on the same level, but if that person is not as 3:57 good, then maybe they're not as good as they really think they are. 4:00 Or it can lead to things where the team is constantly having to boost that person and 4:02 team should totally help each other out and lift each other up. 4:06 But if the entire team is focused. 4:09 On getting one person boosted up to the right level of confidence. 4:12 Then that team often can't accomplish the things they need to accomplish. 4:16 >> Interesting, or it sounds like they may not even be able to 4:19 get the things from that person that they would need. 4:23 >> Definitely. 4:25 >> They might be in a meeting and they might be afraid to speak up about 4:26 something that they actually know about or might have the perfect solution, but 4:29 they're not going to offer that up, it sounds like. 4:33 >> Yeah, they definitely feel like they're not able to give the input, 4:35 to give the feedback, because well, they're not good enough for that, right? 4:41 They're not at that level even though they really are. 4:43 They've accomplished these things, they've used whatever they've used. 4:46 They have the knowledge and information that they have but because they feel like 4:49 they're not good enough, they won't necessarily share and also that 4:53 often leads to things where lay people may not make decisions on their own. 4:57 So sending somebody who suffers from imposter syndrome to perform a certain 5:01 task may lead to where that task is behind or not delivered at all. 5:06 Because they haven't convinced themselves to get their work done and 5:10 it's not that they're a bad developer or a bad performer, 5:15 they just need to deal with the feeling of not being good enough. 5:19 >> Okay, gotcha. 5:23 In the long term it seems like this would have ramifications as well 5:26 on your career, right. 5:31 >> Yeah, if you're feeling like you're not. 5:32 Out for where you are, then you're not likely to seek promotions. 5:35 You may just go along. 5:38 If maybe somebody at the company has a grudge against you like you don't fight 5:41 for yourself in any sorts of things like that can come up 5:44 it could definitely damage your career. 5:47 And often it can lead to people being in ruts 5:48 which again can lead to the burnout thing. 5:51 Yeah, I've spent 15 years of my life writing PHP. 5:54 I'm getting tired of doing that. 5:58 But you're not feeling like okay, I'm gonna have go in the library author. 6:00 I'm gonna have go write a book or gonna have to go be a manager or whatever. 6:02 >> Got you, so I hold you back in the long run. 6:06 >> Definitely can. 6:08 >> And you just won't chase down those new opportunities and stretch yourself. 6:09 How would I know I like what's a good way for me to know whether or not, you know, 6:13 it's just a self-confidence issue or whether it really imposter syndrome. 6:18 >> I mean I think one of the biggest things is 6:22 looking at what you've done looking at what you've achieved and deciding. 6:25 You know that, acknowledging that you've done those things and 6:30 deciding that it is good enough, right? 6:32 >> Right. >> Like okay, 6:34 sure you went to a hackathon, and you had a team, and you used this library but 6:35 you made that app, right? 6:39 You made that iPhone app or that Android app. 6:40 >> Yup. 6:42 >> So acknowledge that you made that. 6:43 All those other caveats of you use this certain library or 6:45 you follow the tutorial or you're at Had this team or 6:48 whatever those don't matter you still did the thing you did. 6:51 >> So since this is a perception issue and some part right? 6:53 >> Sure. >> So it sounds like maybe one way to 6:57 help is to have others offer their own perspective right as to 7:00 your accomplishments and what you've been able to achieve. 7:05 It definitely goes a long way and having friends or teammates. 7:10 Or maybe a mentor that you can 7:14 talk to that can give you that outside acknowledgment of what you've done. 7:17 >> Someone you trust, I would assume. 7:20 >> Yeah and it's not like you're wanting ribbons or or 7:22 accolades just for doing you know your everyday things. 7:26 >> Right. >> But it's someone who's just helping you 7:28 to get past the lens of seeing your own achievements. 7:32 Right, so,you see it as like well it was just the thing I did. 7:34 Right, off and it starts off or maybe even sounds like a modesty kind of thing. 7:37 You don't wanna brag but the point is to have somebody telling you that, 7:41 actually it's really good what you did and it actually does mean something. 7:46 Then you have to accept that. 7:50 So yeah having somebody that you trust having somebody that 7:52 ideally is in the same realm as you. 7:55 >> So it seems that there might even be an opportunity to do some 7:58 self assignment too. 8:01 Like a way to make sure your tracking your progress and 8:02 maybe that's writing things down. 8:06 Sure. 8:08 >> Some way to be able to look back and say I have done these things, I have 8:09 accomplished these things and not like downgrade them or be little them, right? 8:14 >> Yeah. Even little tools like 8:18 having a journal that you keep that track what you've done, 8:20 looking at your GitHub contributions graph is a great way of doing it. 8:23 I recently came across an app. 8:27 I can't remember the name of it right now. 8:29 I showed it in our company slack. 8:31 We can find it and put it in the teacher's notes. 8:33 >> Yeah, definitely. 8:35 >> Or in the show notes. 8:36 It was a list of like 10,000 things about web design or 8:38 web development, like finance. 8:42 >> Like know it all. 8:43 >> Yeah it was like know it all. 8:44 And the idea was to go through the list and 8:46 you just check off all the things that you know. 8:47 And then by the end, the purpose of it by the end you're to left with a list of 8:50 things you need to learn, but it also works the other way around because 8:53 it gives you this list you can look at of things you know and 8:57 likely it's things you've done. 9:01 So maybe that list doesn't work perfectly for everyone. 9:03 A C Sharp developer may not need everything on that list, but 9:05 you can make similar lists or you can make similar things. 9:09 There's tools like things called ENKI, E-N-K-I which is a- 9:12 >> Is like mobile testing app. 9:17 >> It's a mobile app yeah where they give you short little lessons every day in 9:19 whatever subject you want, and you mark it as already knew this or 9:22 I learn something new and then they give you little quizzes and games to play. 9:26 >> So this could be another way for you to assess yourself. 9:30 >> Yeah. >> Yeah I do know that. 9:32 >> Yeah go through the basic java script thing on that and 9:33 if you can mark already knew for three or four days in a row then 9:36 you should feel pretty good about your abilities with JavaScript, right. 9:40 >> Right absolutely. 9:43 So I recently watched a talk from Julie a pike on talk and 9:44 she had a great bit of advice that she called kill your heroes. 9:49 >> Yeah. >> So have you seen the talk. 9:54 >> I have it's of a really, really good talk it was from a couple of years ago. 9:56 Julie gave an amazing talk and her whole part about the kill your heroes is, 9:59 I think is a pretty important part where lots of times the imposter syndrome is 10:05 enhanced, by comparing yourself to someone else, right? 10:11 >> Right. >> Like to relate this to a personal 10:14 thing, the first year I went to Django con, it was in 2011 I wanna say. 10:17 And I've been writing Django and Python for 10:22 years, well 2, 3 [LAUGH] technically years. 10:24 And so I went to the conference. 10:28 I'd never been to a conference before. 10:30 It was the first ever technical conference. 10:31 And all of the big names in the Django world were there, and 10:33 I had to go talk to Russell Keith McGee who at that time was president of 10:37 the Django Soccer Foundation and I was like amazingly intimidated to talk to him. 10:41 And when I talked to him, he was fine. 10:46 He was perfectly nice, and wonderful person. 10:47 But so, the imposter syndrome was there the whole time because I'm at 10:50 the conference and there's talks about things I don't understand and 10:54 there's all this stuff where it wasn't full blown like, I shouldn't be here but 10:56 it was like well I've got a long way to go. 11:00 But they do lightning talks which are you know five minute talks on where a subject 11:02 you want and I got up and gave one about a piece of software recently released. 11:06 And this being 2011, 11:12 slack wasn't around somebody was on IRC chatting about the conference and 11:14 Jacob Kathlyn Moss who also had an amazing Python talk from a couple years ago. 11:19 He commented in the IRC, 11:25 he was like I need this in the library, the thing that I released. 11:26 And that immediately was like okay, 11:29 cool I do deserve to be at least somewhat involved in this but 11:31 because I was able to like get over the hero worship of these people, right? 11:36 I had lunch with them, I talked to them they weren't these 11:40 gods they were just average everyday people and then having them validate 11:43 what I had done which ties back to what we were talking about before makes it, 11:48 it really eliminates that feeling of not belonging. 11:53 >> Yeah, that's great. 11:57 It's really easy, 11:58 I think when you see these people who are in the public you know all the time. 11:59 And giving these great talks or super knowledgeable in whatever topic or field. 12:04 They get followings right. 12:09 >> Sure. 12:11 >> We put them on the pedestal. 12:12 Yeah. 12:13 >> And they become these iconic figures that everyone looks up to. 12:14 >> Yeah, tech very much has a cult of personality problem to it where we start 12:17 to idolize these people and I think if we can eliminate that pedestal they 12:22 put them on it helps to reduce the imposter syndrome as well because we're 12:27 not comparing yourself to Sarah Gate or [CROSSTALK] Whoever, right. 12:32 And they're normal people they have problems just like you do and I do. 12:37 >> So if I'm a manager, a management team or I'm on a team and 12:41 I recognize some of these signs and I think maybe someone might have imposter 12:45 syndrome is there some things that I could do without just directly confronting 12:49 the person is there ways I can support them and things I can do to maybe. 12:54 Yeah, I mean I think some of the things that's really good for managers to do for 12:58 people is trying to help facilitate showing 13:01 weaknesses and strengths, in like knowledge. 13:06 I think one of the things that I've seen a lot of people talk about I think is really 13:11 good for managed to do is to admit like when they don't know something or 13:15 I guess that's closer to maybe senior devs than managers but 13:19 it's still that leadership thing of going. 13:22 Yeah I don't know that either or I don't know that already. 13:24 Let's look at up. 13:27 >> Right some modeling that behavior and saying. 13:27 So you don't look perfect all the time right. 13:30 Say hey I can't do that but let's work on this, let's do the research and 13:32 let's figure it out. 13:35 >> And a big part of that too is. 13:36 How you describe something or talk to something when you do know it, right? 13:39 So I don't have to do a thing I come to you for help and 13:43 if you go well actually it's just blah blah blah, right? 13:46 Or that's really easy it's this this this or you scoff at what my problem is which 13:49 you would never do of course but some people are a bit more grow. 13:54 [LAUGH] They have to talk about problems. 14:00 That can lead people to feel like, wow, 14:02 I must really be stupid cuz I didn't know that thing. 14:05 And if you can modulator that, right and 14:07 you're like yeah no that was really hard when I tried to learn it. 14:10 Let me show you what I figured out. 14:12 >> Yeah. 14:14 Well it's interesting. 14:15 I have certainly experienced when you're doing code reviews you get in their 14:16 mindset, that critical mindset, >> Sure, 14:20 >> It's really easy to criticize and 14:22 look for opportunities for improvement. 14:25 It's much harder to give a complement and look for the things that are done well. 14:27 >> Yeah, it is. 14:31 And I think with code review especially we walk that thin line, 14:33 right between where this is the thing that's measurable, right? 14:38 I can, we can compare two different versions of the same algorithm and 14:41 this one is cleaner and this one's more efficient, and we can weigh pros and 14:44 cons and all these things. 14:48 But, if I don't like the way you wrote your doc string or something, right. 14:51 Like, that's completely arbitrary. 14:57 And that's one of the places where it's like You can belittle people without 14:59 meaning to and it's also most things where it's a great place to go in and 15:03 add those little bonuses and compliments, right? 15:08 Because maybe on your line comments you know, line by line it's gruff and 15:11 clinical. 15:15 But then at the end when you're reviewing the whole poor request it's you know, 15:17 hey I really like how you did this thing and thanks for 15:20 including this test and This is gonna speed up blah blah blah you know whatever. 15:22 >> The praise sandwich as it- >> Right, exactly. 15:27 >> Lead was something positive [CROSSTALK] in was something positive. 15:30 >> Exactly, yeah. 15:35 >> Excellent, Kenneth, thanks for joining me to talk about imposter syndrome. 15:36 >> You're welcome. >> It's great having you on the show. 15:39 >> Yeah, thanks, >> For more information about imposter 15:41 syndrome, be sure to check the notes that accompany this video for 15:44 links to additional resources. 15:46 Also be sure to rate this video. 15:49 Let us know how we're doing or 15:51 if you have a topic that you'd like to see us discuss in the future. 15:53 Let us know about that too. 15:56 Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time. 15:57