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In this episode, Treehouse Teacher, James Churchill, talks to Kenneth Love about Imposter Syndrome.
Welcome to the def team show,
my name is James.
0:00
In this episode we're going to be
talking about imposter syndrome.
0:02
Joining me is Kenneth Love.
0:06
Kenneth is of teacher here a treehouse
0:08
a jangle Software Foundation board member
and active member of the Python community.
0:10
Welcome to the show, Kenneth.
0:16
>> Thanks for having me, James.
0:18
[SOUND]
>> So
0:19
to start off, let's start by just
defining what is imposter syndrome.
0:20
>> Sure, so imposter syndrome is this idea
that you shouldn't be in the community or
0:26
the position that you're in because you
feel like you're not good enough or
0:32
you're not accomplished enough for
that position.
0:36
But really, you have the talents and the
skills and the abilities to be there, and
0:39
so it's feeling like an impostor
when you really shouldn't.
0:43
>> Okay, so
if I was learning a new technology and so
0:47
I'm brand new to that thing
>> And
0:50
I might like have a lack of
self-confidence because I'm not or
0:53
as familiar with that as maybe I should be
is that different than impostor syndrome.
0:55
>> Yeah, I mean what makes impostor
syndrome where you're actually
1:00
feeling like an imposter is
that you know the things.
1:04
You're perfectly capable of doing it,
right.
1:09
So when you're a beginner and
1:12
you're just learning something
you're just breaking into an area.
1:13
Even if you're an experienced developer
but you're learning a new language or
1:15
a new framework or a new tool.
1:18
That's totally different because
you're brand new to that.
1:20
>> Right.
You're expected to have some sort of
1:22
discomfort.
1:25
>> Yeah.
1:26
>> And maybe unfamiliarity.
1:26
>> Right.
1:28
>> But in processing dramas
where you know all the bits and
1:29
pieces you know all the tools but
>> But
1:32
you still feel like you're
not supposed to be there.
1:35
>> Right, so
you're not acknowledging your own success.
1:36
>> Right.
>> Or your own skills,
1:40
the things you can actually do.
1:41
There's a difference or
1:43
a delta between reality and
what you think you're you're capable of.
1:44
>> Yeah, lots of times people discount
their own achievements, right?
1:49
Somebody will have built
something at a hackathon or
1:51
they'll have built something by
personally falling in a tutorial and
1:54
the feel like well I
didn't really do it right.
1:57
I had home I was a hackathon so my team
helped me, or I read it's a tutorial so
2:00
you know the person who
wrote that guide helped me.
2:04
>> So you're downplaying you know
what it is that you accomplished.
2:05
>> Exactly you're cutting
yourself down right.
2:10
And really that's obviously
not good to do, right.
2:13
You should acknowledge your own
2:16
accomplishments,
>> [LAUGH]
2:17
>> But that also is what leaves that
2:19
feeling of being an imposter.
2:20
>> Okay, so what are, I mean so that
sounds like a kind of a tough problem.
2:21
So what are the effects of that,
2:26
like on one's person, if you're
suffering from an imposter syndrome?
2:28
>> Sure, you know obviously if you're
disposed to having other emotional
2:32
problems right.
2:37
Maybe you suffer from depression or things
like that imposter syndrome could make
2:38
that worse, but also it often leads to
feelings of increased pressure to perform.
2:42
So yeah I use that library but really I
should write my own library that does
2:47
that or I should write my
own middleware or whatever.
2:52
And that can lead to things like burnout
if it goes on long enough to where you've
2:56
never written enough stuff or
3:00
produced enough stuff to feel like
you're good enough to be where you are.
3:02
And you just exhaust yourself.
3:07
>> Interesting, so you actually do
more than maybe what is necessary and
3:09
you just keep pushing it and
3:13
pushing it because you feel like you
kind of have to in order to do it right.
3:14
>> Yeah, yeah, I mean, it almost leads
into like a workaholic syndrome kind of
3:19
thing, right, or it can't.
3:23
Depends on the person.
3:24
Different people are going to
experience this in different ways.
3:26
>> So if I if I work on a team and
3:28
I have imposter syndrome,
what are the effects on my team?
3:31
Lots of times that can be,
they can be different things, right?
3:35
It's gonna depend on you,
3:39
it's gonna depend on the team, but it can
definitely damage the morale of the team.
3:39
If you have somebody who's maybe always
downplaying their own abilities or
3:43
talking down about themselves then that
can lead to where the entire team.
3:48
Either they start to feel bad because
maybe, they compare themselves to that
3:53
person and they feel like they're on the
same level, but if that person is not as
3:57
good, then maybe they're not as
good as they really think they are.
4:00
Or it can lead to things where the team is
constantly having to boost that person and
4:02
team should totally help each
other out and lift each other up.
4:06
But if the entire team is focused.
4:09
On getting one person boosted up
to the right level of confidence.
4:12
Then that team often can't accomplish
the things they need to accomplish.
4:16
>> Interesting, or it sounds like
they may not even be able to
4:19
get the things from that
person that they would need.
4:23
>> Definitely.
4:25
>> They might be in a meeting and
they might be afraid to speak up about
4:26
something that they actually know about or
might have the perfect solution, but
4:29
they're not going to offer that up,
it sounds like.
4:33
>> Yeah, they definitely feel like
they're not able to give the input,
4:35
to give the feedback, because well,
they're not good enough for that, right?
4:41
They're not at that level
even though they really are.
4:43
They've accomplished these things,
they've used whatever they've used.
4:46
They have the knowledge and information
that they have but because they feel like
4:49
they're not good enough,
they won't necessarily share and also that
4:53
often leads to things where lay people
may not make decisions on their own.
4:57
So sending somebody who suffers from
imposter syndrome to perform a certain
5:01
task may lead to where that task
is behind or not delivered at all.
5:06
Because they haven't convinced
themselves to get their work done and
5:10
it's not that they're a bad developer or
a bad performer,
5:15
they just need to deal with
the feeling of not being good enough.
5:19
>> Okay, gotcha.
5:23
In the long term it seems like this
would have ramifications as well
5:26
on your career, right.
5:31
>> Yeah,
if you're feeling like you're not.
5:32
Out for where you are,
then you're not likely to seek promotions.
5:35
You may just go along.
5:38
If maybe somebody at the company has
a grudge against you like you don't fight
5:41
for yourself in any sorts of
things like that can come up
5:44
it could definitely damage your career.
5:47
And often it can lead
to people being in ruts
5:48
which again can lead to the burnout thing.
5:51
Yeah, I've spent 15 years
of my life writing PHP.
5:54
I'm getting tired of doing that.
5:58
But you're not feeling like okay,
I'm gonna have go in the library author.
6:00
I'm gonna have go write a book or
gonna have to go be a manager or whatever.
6:02
>> Got you, so
I hold you back in the long run.
6:06
>> Definitely can.
6:08
>> And you just won't chase down those
new opportunities and stretch yourself.
6:09
How would I know I like what's a good way
for me to know whether or not, you know,
6:13
it's just a self-confidence issue or
whether it really imposter syndrome.
6:18
>> I mean I think one of
the biggest things is
6:22
looking at what you've done looking
at what you've achieved and deciding.
6:25
You know that, acknowledging that
you've done those things and
6:30
deciding that it is good enough, right?
6:32
>> Right.
>> Like okay,
6:34
sure you went to a hackathon, and you had
a team, and you used this library but
6:35
you made that app, right?
6:39
You made that iPhone app or
that Android app.
6:40
>> Yup.
6:42
>> So acknowledge that you made that.
6:43
All those other caveats of you
use this certain library or
6:45
you follow the tutorial or
you're at Had this team or
6:48
whatever those don't matter you
still did the thing you did.
6:51
>> So since this is a perception issue and
some part right?
6:53
>> Sure.
>> So it sounds like maybe one way to
6:57
help is to have others offer
their own perspective right as to
7:00
your accomplishments and
what you've been able to achieve.
7:05
It definitely goes a long way and
having friends or teammates.
7:10
Or maybe a mentor that you can
7:14
talk to that can give you that outside
acknowledgment of what you've done.
7:17
>> Someone you trust, I would assume.
7:20
>> Yeah and
it's not like you're wanting ribbons or or
7:22
accolades just for
doing you know your everyday things.
7:26
>> Right.
>> But it's someone who's just helping you
7:28
to get past the lens of
seeing your own achievements.
7:32
Right, so,you see it as like well
it was just the thing I did.
7:34
Right, off and it starts off or maybe
even sounds like a modesty kind of thing.
7:37
You don't wanna brag but the point is
to have somebody telling you that,
7:41
actually it's really good what you did and
it actually does mean something.
7:46
Then you have to accept that.
7:50
So yeah having somebody that
you trust having somebody that
7:52
ideally is in the same realm as you.
7:55
>> So it seems that there might
even be an opportunity to do some
7:58
self assignment too.
8:01
Like a way to make sure your
tracking your progress and
8:02
maybe that's writing things down.
8:06
Sure.
8:08
>> Some way to be able to look back and
say I have done these things, I have
8:09
accomplished these things and not like
downgrade them or be little them, right?
8:14
>> Yeah.
Even little tools like
8:18
having a journal that you keep
that track what you've done,
8:20
looking at your GitHub contributions
graph is a great way of doing it.
8:23
I recently came across an app.
8:27
I can't remember the name of it right now.
8:29
I showed it in our company slack.
8:31
We can find it and
put it in the teacher's notes.
8:33
>> Yeah, definitely.
8:35
>> Or in the show notes.
8:36
It was a list of like 10,000
things about web design or
8:38
web development, like finance.
8:42
>> Like know it all.
8:43
>> Yeah it was like know it all.
8:44
And the idea was to go
through the list and
8:46
you just check off all
the things that you know.
8:47
And then by the end, the purpose of it
by the end you're to left with a list of
8:50
things you need to learn, but
it also works the other way around because
8:53
it gives you this list you can
look at of things you know and
8:57
likely it's things you've done.
9:01
So maybe that list doesn't
work perfectly for everyone.
9:03
A C Sharp developer may not need
everything on that list, but
9:05
you can make similar lists or
you can make similar things.
9:09
There's tools like things called ENKI,
E-N-K-I which is a-
9:12
>> Is like mobile testing app.
9:17
>> It's a mobile app yeah where they give
you short little lessons every day in
9:19
whatever subject you want, and
you mark it as already knew this or
9:22
I learn something new and then they give
you little quizzes and games to play.
9:26
>> So this could be another way for
you to assess yourself.
9:30
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah I do know that.
9:32
>> Yeah go through the basic
java script thing on that and
9:33
if you can mark already knew for
three or four days in a row then
9:36
you should feel pretty good about your
abilities with JavaScript, right.
9:40
>> Right absolutely.
9:43
So I recently watched a talk
from Julie a pike on talk and
9:44
she had a great bit of advice
that she called kill your heroes.
9:49
>> Yeah.
>> So have you seen the talk.
9:54
>> I have it's of a really, really good
talk it was from a couple of years ago.
9:56
Julie gave an amazing talk and her whole
part about the kill your heroes is,
9:59
I think is a pretty important part where
lots of times the imposter syndrome is
10:05
enhanced, by comparing yourself
to someone else, right?
10:11
>> Right.
>> Like to relate this to a personal
10:14
thing, the first year I went to Django
con, it was in 2011 I wanna say.
10:17
And I've been writing Django and
Python for
10:22
years, well 2,
3 [LAUGH] technically years.
10:24
And so I went to the conference.
10:28
I'd never been to a conference before.
10:30
It was the first ever
technical conference.
10:31
And all of the big names in
the Django world were there, and
10:33
I had to go talk to Russell Keith McGee
who at that time was president of
10:37
the Django Soccer Foundation and I was
like amazingly intimidated to talk to him.
10:41
And when I talked to him, he was fine.
10:46
He was perfectly nice,
and wonderful person.
10:47
But so, the imposter syndrome was
there the whole time because I'm at
10:50
the conference and there's talks
about things I don't understand and
10:54
there's all this stuff where it wasn't
full blown like, I shouldn't be here but
10:56
it was like well I've
got a long way to go.
11:00
But they do lightning talks which are you
know five minute talks on where a subject
11:02
you want and I got up and gave one about
a piece of software recently released.
11:06
And this being 2011,
11:12
slack wasn't around somebody was on
IRC chatting about the conference and
11:14
Jacob Kathlyn Moss who also had an amazing
Python talk from a couple years ago.
11:19
He commented in the IRC,
11:25
he was like I need this in the library,
the thing that I released.
11:26
And that immediately was like okay,
11:29
cool I do deserve to be at least
somewhat involved in this but
11:31
because I was able to like get over
the hero worship of these people, right?
11:36
I had lunch with them,
I talked to them they weren't these
11:40
gods they were just average everyday
people and then having them validate
11:43
what I had done which ties back to what
we were talking about before makes it,
11:48
it really eliminates that
feeling of not belonging.
11:53
>> Yeah, that's great.
11:57
It's really easy,
11:58
I think when you see these people who
are in the public you know all the time.
11:59
And giving these great talks or super
knowledgeable in whatever topic or field.
12:04
They get followings right.
12:09
>> Sure.
12:11
>> We put them on the pedestal.
12:12
Yeah.
12:13
>> And they become these iconic
figures that everyone looks up to.
12:14
>> Yeah, tech very much has a cult of
personality problem to it where we start
12:17
to idolize these people and I think if
we can eliminate that pedestal they
12:22
put them on it helps to reduce the
imposter syndrome as well because we're
12:27
not comparing yourself to Sarah Gate or
[CROSSTALK] Whoever, right.
12:32
And they're normal people they have
problems just like you do and I do.
12:37
>> So if I'm a manager,
a management team or I'm on a team and
12:41
I recognize some of these signs and
I think maybe someone might have imposter
12:45
syndrome is there some things that I could
do without just directly confronting
12:49
the person is there ways I can support
them and things I can do to maybe.
12:54
Yeah, I mean I think some of the things
that's really good for managers to do for
12:58
people is trying to
help facilitate showing
13:01
weaknesses and strengths,
in like knowledge.
13:06
I think one of the things that I've seen a
lot of people talk about I think is really
13:11
good for managed to do is to admit
like when they don't know something or
13:15
I guess that's closer to maybe
senior devs than managers but
13:19
it's still that leadership thing of going.
13:22
Yeah I don't know that either or
I don't know that already.
13:24
Let's look at up.
13:27
>> Right some modeling that behavior and
saying.
13:27
So you don't look perfect
all the time right.
13:30
Say hey I can't do that but let's work
on this, let's do the research and
13:32
let's figure it out.
13:35
>> And a big part of that too is.
13:36
How you describe something or talk to
something when you do know it, right?
13:39
So I don't have to do a thing
I come to you for help and
13:43
if you go well actually it's
just blah blah blah, right?
13:46
Or that's really easy it's this this this
or you scoff at what my problem is which
13:49
you would never do of course but
some people are a bit more grow.
13:54
[LAUGH] They have to talk about problems.
14:00
That can lead people to feel like, wow,
14:02
I must really be stupid cuz
I didn't know that thing.
14:05
And if you can modulator that, right and
14:07
you're like yeah no that was really
hard when I tried to learn it.
14:10
Let me show you what I figured out.
14:12
>> Yeah.
14:14
Well it's interesting.
14:15
I have certainly experienced when you're
doing code reviews you get in their
14:16
mindset, that critical mindset,
>> Sure,
14:20
>> It's really easy to criticize and
14:22
look for opportunities for improvement.
14:25
It's much harder to give a complement and
look for the things that are done well.
14:27
>> Yeah, it is.
14:31
And I think with code review
especially we walk that thin line,
14:33
right between where this is
the thing that's measurable, right?
14:38
I can, we can compare two different
versions of the same algorithm and
14:41
this one is cleaner and this one's more
efficient, and we can weigh pros and
14:44
cons and all these things.
14:48
But, if I don't like the way you wrote
your doc string or something, right.
14:51
Like, that's completely arbitrary.
14:57
And that's one of the places where it's
like You can belittle people without
14:59
meaning to and it's also most things
where it's a great place to go in and
15:03
add those little bonuses and
compliments, right?
15:08
Because maybe on your line comments
you know, line by line it's gruff and
15:11
clinical.
15:15
But then at the end when you're reviewing
the whole poor request it's you know,
15:17
hey I really like how you did
this thing and thanks for
15:20
including this test and This is gonna
speed up blah blah blah you know whatever.
15:22
>> The praise sandwich as it-
>> Right, exactly.
15:27
>> Lead was something positive
[CROSSTALK] in was something positive.
15:30
>> Exactly, yeah.
15:35
>> Excellent, Kenneth, thanks for joining
me to talk about imposter syndrome.
15:36
>> You're welcome.
>> It's great having you on the show.
15:39
>> Yeah, thanks,
>> For more information about imposter
15:41
syndrome, be sure to check the notes
that accompany this video for
15:44
links to additional resources.
15:46
Also be sure to rate this video.
15:49
Let us know how we're doing or
15:51
if you have a topic that you'd like
to see us discuss in the future.
15:53
Let us know about that too.
15:56
Thanks for watching and
we'll see you next time.
15:57
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