[? music ?] 0:00 [Treehouse Friends] 0:04 [? music ?] 0:06 Hey, everyone, Dan Gorgone here from Treehouse. 0:15 We're at the In Control Conference in Orlando, and we're talking with 0:17 Carl Smith, founder of nGen Works. 0:20 Carl, thanks for joining us. >>Thanks for having me. 0:23 >>Caught your keynote this morning, very cool, very inspirational, 0:25 something that I think a lot of designers and developers, our key audience, 0:29 would definitely be inspired by. 0:33 You talked about your experience—very personal 0:35 experience—getting started in the tech industry. 0:37 >>Yeah, I learned early on how to make money but sacrifice my life for it, 0:39 and later started a company and got kind of all sucked up in that 0:45 and feeling important, and basically today I just wanted to share with people 0:50 the things that I'd learned and that there really can be balance, 0:54 if you just learn how to let go of certain things. 0:58 >>I know this is a lesson that probably had to be learned in stages. 1:00 I know that you talked about one of your 1st experiences 1:05 was working for a company that you weren't actually working for. 1:07 You just sort walked right in there and started doing things because 1:11 you wanted to do them. >>I wanted to work there. 1:14 I had interned at the company, and right when 1:17 I got back to college, they had a layoff. 1:20 They had gotten stiffed for some money, and when I came back, they weren't hiring, 1:22 and I was like, you know what, I know people here, there's nobody sitting over there, 1:25 I'm just going to go sit over there and start working, and eventually somebody 1:29 will ask me to help with something, and that happened. 1:32 And 3 weeks in, one of the owners asked me if I could work on the weekend. 1:34 He goes, "Hey, we're putting together this bid for"—it was actually 1:38 for the Jacksonville Jaguars, right—"we're putting in this bid, you get 1:40 an NFL team, could you come in on the weekend and work on it?" 1:43 I just looked at him and went, "I don't work here." 1:46 And he went, "What?" 1:48 It was like, "No, I've just been showing up. I'm living with my folks. 1:50 "I don't know what to do," and I got a call from the president that night, 1:53 of the company, and she said, "We'll pay you sixteen thousand seven hundred dollars," 1:56 and I was like, "I will take that money. I will come to work with you 2:01 tomorrow, on Saturday." 2:04 >>You know, there are plenty of other younger people out there that 2:06 are learning skills, and they have interest. 2:09 They have passions that they want to follow, 2:12 and are probably going to be in the same boat, where they just want to start 2:15 doing stuff, and many of them are, 2:18 whether they're members on our site or they're just out there 2:21 learning on their own and practicing things. 2:24 How can they take that step when they're online? 2:26 Or when they don't have a place down the street where they can go to? 2:30 >>You know, I would say you find that 1 thing 2:33 that you're really passionate about that you want to do. 2:36 You find your skills that you're really good at, and then, 2:38 I mentioned this, you find that thing that when you're doing it 2:41 you lose track of time. 2:44 That's when you know that that's what you're supposed to do. 2:46 And what I would say is if you don't have anybody to be paying you to do that, 2:48 sort of do it for yourself. 2:52 Put it out there, and show people what you're capable of. 2:54 And show people what it is that you care about. 2:58 It could be there's a not-for-profit, it could be a 3:00 guy with a hotdog stand, it could be whatever. 3:03 But find something that's real enough that it touches somebody else, 3:05 because the big issue I think a lot of people have is they 3:09 build something for themselves, and they keep the energy trapped. 3:11 It has to go out and touch somebody else so that they're like suddenly 3:14 your ambassador, saying, "Wow. He is awesome at designing identities, 3:18 and that's what he loves to do. Look at what did with this hotdog cart." 3:22 You know, whatever it is, however silly it might feel, just work 3:26 at what it is you love, and make sure that it touches somebody else. 3:30 >>You talked about the concept of stored energy in your talk, 3:33 and energy being stored, being trapped, through money. 3:37 Or worrying about what different people think about what you're doing 3:42 or the strategy that the path you're taking— 3:47 Can you talk about that stored energy? 3:50 Are there different ways to release that energy and to build more energy? 3:52 >>Absolutely. And it's not my concept, although it's one I truly embrace and love, 3:56 and actually, I think the 1st time I ever read about it might 4:00 have been like a Motley Fool's investment portfolio, or something. 4:04 But the idea that we have is we can either have a life, or we can have a lot of money. 4:07 And my belief and things that I've read is that money is just stored life energy. 4:13 So you're going to hire me to cut your lawn for 20 bucks. 4:19 I'm going to give you 20 minutes—well, you probably have a big lawn 4:22 because you're very successful—I'm going to give you an hour and a half of my time, 4:25 and you're going to give me that 20 dollars. 4:28 And I've exchanged that. 4:31 Now you have gotten that hour and a half back in your life 4:33 in exchange for that money that you earned doing something else. 4:35 So a lot of people don't want to have a yard service, or they don't want to have 4:38 a cleaning service, or they don't want to do these things. 4:43 I think it's important to do that, right? 4:45 Because you have to keep energy flowing, and you have to keep money flowing. 4:48 Otherwise, it goes stagnant. If you just try to hold onto money, 4:53 people won't help you. 4:56 But, and I mentioned it, if you're at the bar and you buy that 1st round, 4:58 guess what? Somebody's buying the 2nd, and somebody's buying the 3rd. 5:01 And there's a new person that shows up, and before you know it 5:04 you got a free beer, right? 5:08 And if you guys see me later tonight, we'll totally try this. 5:09 [laughter] You'll buy me a free beer. But that works on a bigger scale as well. 5:13 If you—like, I helped a client who lost a job find a new job. 5:16 Well, a year later, he showed up, and he had work. 5:21 It gets to hippie juice, right, and then that's what I call it 5:25 when you start thinking about certain things, but I really think karma is real. 5:28 I think there's no debt in the universe that doesn't get repaid. 5:31 And so when you do good things for people, intending to do good things 5:35 and not thinking about the outcome, I think it comes back. 5:39 >>You know, as someone that's worked as a designer 5:43 and has built sites and worked on projects, I have some experience of 5:47 trying to do that and do good at the same time. 5:53 And I feel like one of the risks is when you get involved with people who are, 5:57 like friends and family, and it seems like there's a whole different 6:02 set of obligations when you have a client that you don't necessarily know, 6:06 versus someone that you know personally, that you have feelings for. 6:10 You don't want to disappoint them, you don't want the relationship, 6:16 which is so special, to be affected in some way. 6:21 Can you work on these different projects in the same way 6:23 and work with friends and family, at the same time work with other people out there? 6:29 >>You know, I think it's going to be a case-by-case basis, 6:34 and it's going to be the context of that relationship. 6:37 The thing that I would say is take an hour. 6:40 Find a quiet place. 6:44 Sit down and think about what that's going to be like, 6:46 and if you feel yourself in discomfort, do not do it. 6:49 But if you find that you feel really good because you can envision 6:53 everyone celebrating whatever it is you accomplished, then do it. 6:57 We know the things to do, we just ignore the signals. 7:01 So I think that's a big part of it. 7:04 Personally, I think you can. I don't think I could ever work on a project with my wife, 7:06 because it's too personal, right? There's too many little things. 7:10 I wanted to have an office in our house, and I work from outside most of the time. 7:15 And I wanted to have an office in our house. 7:20 She goes, "No, that's the den." And then a year later, she put a desk in there. 7:22 And now she works in there! That's not cool! [laughter] 7:26 But you know, that's what a relationship is. You figure it out. 7:29 I think a big part of that, too, is that idea of becoming defenseless. 7:33 And I mentioned, defenseless is not a negative word. 7:37 It doesn't mean helpless. 7:40 It means there's no longer a need to defend. 7:42 And when you stop worrying about how everybody sees you, 7:44 and not in a cocky way but in a I totally respect you 7:48 and I don't think I'm any better than you, and I don't think you're any better than me, 7:51 so really it doesn't matter what you think, this is what I'm doing, 7:55 you get so much of your time back. 7:58 We spend so much time judging and defending. 8:01 And if you can learn to put it aside—and I mess it up every day. 8:04 I'll see some guy with an iPad, I'm like, did he steal that? 8:09 [laughter] It's little things where you find yourself doing that, and you're like 8:11 this makes no sense; why would I even worry? 8:16 So I think there's a lot of steps that you can take to work with friends 8:19 and work with family, but I think that the truth is you'll feel it in 8:23 your gut or in your heart or your headache that you might get. 8:26 So I think that's the thing—Just listen to the signals for you. 8:30 >>One other thing that you mentioned, and this goes for a lot of our 8:33 members, as well as entrepreneurs—Staying with what you know 8:39 versus trying new things. 8:44 There's always a fear of the unknown. 8:46 What are the advantages of trying those new things 8:49 and sort of breaking down those internal barriers into parts unknown? 8:53 >>You know, I think uncertainty is the path forward. 8:59 I mean, you can go back to, you know, "I chose the one less traveled." 9:04 You can do all of those types of things, but the reality is 9:10 if you fall back on what you know, 9:13 then you're no longer going anywhere. 9:16 You're not moving, you're going backwards or you're standing still. 9:19 If you take that chance, if you do the uncertain thing, 9:22 you're going to learn new things. You're going to find something. 9:25 And it's like I mentioned having goals., and I change those goals all the time 9:29 because I do something I didn't think I would do, and I realize it's—Writing a book is silly. 9:34 There's no reason for me to write a book, it's because everybody else 9:36 has written one, and I feel like I should. But I want that time back 9:38 so that I can then help somebody, right? 9:41 I don't know how I said it, but people tweeted it, so I think it pretty good. 9:44 If you do what you know, you lock yourself in a prison of the past. 9:46 I said something like that, right, it was really good. 9:52 >>I think that works. >>Yeah, that one works. 9:55 So I think uncertainty, if you're nervous about something 9:57 but you don't feel bad if you're nervous, but it's like excitement, 10:00 you need to follow that path. If you're not sure about what you're doing, 10:03 then you're doing something. 10:06 >>Well, this idea of helping others, I know that it has carried through 10:08 your work and through your leadership, too. 10:13 There have been a number of opportunities you've talked about where 10:15 you've supported your own people so that they could leave, 10:18 which seems like—Thinking about running a company or running a business, 10:22 seems like the craziest thing you would want to do is send these 10:26 amazing, talented people out to work on other things. 10:30 But in supporting them, you've actually gained even more. 10:34 Can you tell us about that? >>Sure. I mean it started with Microsoft, 10:40 and Microsoft had come in and, as a company, we couldn't see eye to eye 10:45 on how to work together, and they approached some of the individuals. 10:50 And one of the individuals came to me, and he goes, "You know, this is a 10:54 "lot of money," and I was like "Go do it. You're young. 10:56 "Take their money." And our concept of having a core team and then a— 11:00 what we would call, like we have the engineers and then the fringeneers 11:05 as the secondary team, and I said just don't quit. 11:08 Just take a step back. 11:11 And this kind of set a precedent, where now we had somebody who just got 11:13 pretty much sucked up into a startup, 11:18 and she said, "Can I be a fringeneer?" 11:21 And I was like, "Absolutely, the doors don't shut any more. 11:23 "Go do what you have to do." She wanted to be in an office. 11:25 She wanted that energy, she wanted that excitement, and they pretty much offered her 11:28 a lot of money, and she said, "Well, I'll give you 10 to 15 hours a week." 11:31 And I said, "We'll take it. Let's do it." 11:35 And so she's still maintaining a lot of what she did. 11:37 But the idea that people are supposed to stay somewhere forever 11:40 is a little ridiculous. 11:44 Especially if you're a small team, and there's nowhere to grow. 11:46 There's nowhere to get to. 11:49 So I finally just realized, for me, that doesn't matter. 11:52 If they're learning, and they're going somewhere, 11:56 and eventually they're going to go somewhere else, 11:58 maybe they'll come back, maybe they won't, but either way, 12:00 we still have a really positive relationship, and I'd rather have that 12:03 positive energy than I would, you know, seeing them in the store 12:06 and going, "Oh, I'm going the other way." 12:10 >>And you never know. That relationship could flip as well, 12:12 If something happens, and then suddenly you're looking for a project 12:18 or an opportunity. >>That's absolutely true. 12:22 You know, the team actually picks the work. 12:24 I'm not involved in it that much any more, and one of the things for me, 12:27 and I didn't mention it, was I don't want an exit strategy, 12:31 I want an irrelevant strategy. I just want to become irrelevant. 12:33 And one of the amazing things about doing nothing is how much you become 12:35 a part of everybody else's life. 12:41 How much you—You get that call, and you don't dread it. 12:44 You want to find out how it went. 12:47 One of the people that left, I shot her a quick IM, and I go, 12:49 "How's the first day on the job?" And she was like, "Stop being so nice. 12:53 "You're making me feel horrible." [laughter] I was like, "What? I'm seriously 12:55 curious, I want to know how it's going." 12:58 My youngest daughter, about 2 years ago, she was 7— 13:00 maybe it wasn't quite that long ago—I just finished the Steve Jobs biography, 13:05 and she said, "What do you want people to remember about you?" 13:08 And I said, "That I was a nice guy who was really successful." 13:12 Because it seems like those don't exist anywhere. 13:18 And she wanted to be an astronaut. 13:22 So I think she won, but it was just one of those amazing moments where 13:24 somebody with no expectation of your answer whatsoever 13:29 asks you something, and you get that clarity of— 13:32 I'm not always nice, I should work on that. 13:35 So that was a pretty beautiful thing. 13:38 >>Moving forward, how can our members learn more about you? 13:40 I know you have a podcast. >>Yeah, I have Bizcraft with Gene Crawford. 13:44 And if you go to unmatchedstyle.com, who I believe is 1 of the sponsors here, 13:48 if you go to unmatchedstyle.com, you'll find the Bizcraft podcast. 13:53 And we've done, I think we're coming up on 18 episodes, 13:57 and you'll be able to send in questions, and we'll answer them on the air. 14:01 We actually had Daniel Pink, who—I don't know if you're familiar with Daniel Pink, 14:05 but we had him on a podcast a few weeks ago. 14:08 And that for me was one of those exciting moments where it was just like 14:11 oh, my God, I love your work. 14:14 I'm such a fanboy, I will get this—let's edit that out. 14:16 But so, yeah, so I think that's a way to contact us. 14:19 And also on Twitter, I'm just carlsmith, with a c. 14:21 Or send me an email, carl@ngenworks.com. 14:24 One of the things that I mentioned is I spend about half my day trying to help 14:27 the team at nGen and about half my day trying to help the industry. 14:32 Anybody that I can—One of my goals is to have somebody create a company better 14:34 than mine, and I was just able to help them on some level. 14:38 >>Well, I think we all appreciate that. 14:40 Well, thank you, Carl. Carl Smith, founder of nGen Works, thanks again for joining us. 14:43 >>I appreciate it. >>And we'll see you next time on Treehouse Friends. 14:49 >>Have fun, everybody. 14:52 [Treehouse Friends] 14:54 [? music ?] 14:56