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Hour with a Tech Recruiter: Javier Dutan

55:51 with Ryan Carson

Welcome to Hour with a Tech Recruiter. In this live event, Treehouse Founder and CEO Ryan Carson will facilitate a conversation with Reddit Senior Technical Recruiter, Javier Dutan. They will discuss tangible tips for folks looking to stand out among other candidates and land a job in tech. This interview will end with a live Q&A portion from the audience followed by a networking hour for attendees.

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Okay, hello, everyone, and welcome to Hour with a Tech Recruiter. 0:03

I am so glad you decided to join us today to learn about best practices 0:09

in the job search. 0:13

Before we start, I'd like to recognize that there is a lot of work 0:15

that needs to be done to make the tech industry more equitable. 0:19

A 2020 study showed that on average, black employees only make up 0:23

5% of tech workers, while they make up 13% of the US population. 0:28

Folks who identify as Latinx account for 8% of workers in tech, 0:34

while they make up 18% of the US population. 0:38

There is an imbalance in the industry, and it is long overdue for change. 0:43

At treehouse, we are taking steps towards making the industry more inclusive. 0:48

We want to empower underrepresented communities to succeed in tech, 0:52

while challenging the industry to improve. 0:56

We believe there is a place in tech for 1:00

everyone to thrive as their most authentic self. 1:02

If you'd like to learn more about our commitment to equity, diversity and 1:05

inclusion, please visit teamtreehouse.com/about. 1:09

Thousands of treehouse students are now taking part in our 100 Days of 1:13

Code Challenge. 1:17

Transform your life by committing to learn for 30 minutes a day for 100 days. 1:19

You'll have the support of the treehouse community of students working with you. 1:24

Head to teamtreehouse.com/100daysofcode to start your challenge. 1:28

Before we begin, 1:33

I would like to mention that there is a code of conduct posted in reception. 1:35

Please take the time to review the code of conduct, and 1:40

know that we take that very seriously for these events. 1:42

There's also live captioning link provided in reception, as well as in the chat. 1:46

Now, I'd like to welcome Javier Deuteron as the guest speaker for 1:51

this session of Hour with a Tech Recruiter. 1:55

Javier is a technical recruiter experienced in growth stage startups, 1:58

with a specialty in diversifying teams. 2:02

He is passionate about diversifying the workplace, 2:05

because diverse teams have been proven to create for thinking and resilient teams. 2:08

In his spare time, he works on web projects, and has been coding web and 2:14

app projects since 2013. 2:18

His development experience has made technical recruiting his strong point. 2:20

He has recruited engineering talent for FAANG, Fortune 500, series A, 2:25

B and C startups, and built over ten engineering teams in Latin America. 2:30

Currently, he works as a senior technical recruiter at Reddit. 2:35

Welcome, Javier. 2:40

JAVIER: Cool, thank you for having me here, Ryan. 2:42

I really love the mission that treehouse is on, and I support you guys 100%. 2:44

I think there's a lot of work to be done. 2:49

And startups are the big tech companies of diversifying the workplace. 2:52

RYAN: Amen, well thanks for doing your part on the recruiting side of that, 2:57

really value that. 3:02

And I know that everybody that's attending is really excited to 3:03

learn about the practicalities of okay, how do we get a job? 3:08

There's 272 of you here, or 274. 3:12

And I just wanna welcome you all for being here, and taking time in your day. 3:16

I'm gonna be asking Javier some questions. 3:22

I didn't even say this, but I'm Ryan Carson, the founder of Treehouse, 3:24

really good to be here with you all today. 3:28

I'm gonna ask him some questions. 3:30

But please get active in the chat. 3:32

I will do my best to watch it. 3:35

And my team is gonna select your questions, and 3:37

then make sure that we have time to ask Javier as many of them as we can. 3:39

So I'm just gonna switch to the stage chat. 3:44

I'm gonna say hi to a couple of people here, Juan. 3:50

Welcome, James. 3:53

Kate, good to see y'all. 3:55

Terrence, Bee, Bee's always here. 3:57

Hey, Bee, nice to see you. 4:00

Andre, just a ton of great people in the chat. 4:01

All right, so the first question I have for 4:05

you is when did you first decide to pursue a career in tech? 4:10

JAVIER: I would say probably in high school, so I used to do photography. 4:16

I remember my first website was actually my own portfolio. 4:20

Ryan: Nice. 4:25

Javier: And I mean, that website looked really ugly, but it works. 4:26

RYAN: [LAUGH] That's where we all start. 4:29

JAVIER: Yeah, it was a fun. 4:32

Back then [COUGH], HTML5 didn't exist, so 4:33

it was just really hard just building stuff in general. 4:36

And then slowly a transition with my parents, they have a small business. 4:41

I built them their own marketing website. 4:45

Was part of one of the first early adopters of Facebook for small businesses. 4:48

Unfortunately, I didn't continue with tech, 4:55

so I went to college as an accountant. 4:58

So I have an accounting degree. 5:01

Yeah, [COUGH] I mean, I love accounting. 5:03

I also love tech. 5:07

RYAN: Accounting is important. 5:08

JAVIER: It's super important. 5:10

I think we need to teach more people financial literacy. 5:11

RYAN: Amen. 5:14

JAVIER: I think that's a big part of DEI as well. 5:15

You don't really learn anything in schools. 5:17

And college doesn't really doesn't teach you. 5:21

They just want you to pay out more and more. 5:22

RYAN: Yeah. 5:24

JAVIER: So but back to tech. 5:25

In college, I mostly did a lot of web projects. 5:28

I would do most of my course work building websites, or something. 5:32

It was just really easy to get a good grade, 5:37

cuz a lot of people weren't building stuff back then for their projects. 5:40

And then I would say around 2013, when I started building mobile applications. 5:44

Back then, I'm not sure what the big learning thing was. 5:50

But I studied how to code on MSDN with their Channel 9. 5:57

RYAN: Yep, gosh, wow. 6:02

JAVIER: So they had 60 to 70 videos per course, and I would just watch them, and 6:04

learn how to code, download Visual Studio. 6:08

That was when they started making Visual Studio free. 6:11

And I slowly learned. 6:15

And then ever since college finished, I've just been working in startups. 6:16

I've mostly worked as a front-end engineer. 6:20

So, unfortunately, again, I picked the wrong stack. 6:23

I went into the Microsoft Stack, so I'm pretty good at Azure. 6:28

Pretty good at SAML, so SAMLs probably the strongest language I have. 6:33

But no one uses it, unfortunately. 6:36

RYAN: Right. 6:37

JAVIER: So I'm transitioning right now to like React JS, TypeScript, that kind of thing. 6:38

RYAN: Awesome. JAVIER: But, yeah. 6:43

After that, I've been coding since then. 6:45

And I've been technical recruiters. 6:47

I found it to be my passion. 6:48

RYAN: Awesome, okay, cool. 6:50

Can you speak to the difference between types of jobs to apply for, 6:52

and how companies can vary? 6:57

JAVIER: Yeah, so if you're just graduating from a bootcamp, or 7:00

just starting your career, I would look at internships. 7:04

Those are usually one of the best places to go, apprenticeships. 7:09

If you are a person of color, I would look at leap programs. 7:12

So Microsoft has a really strong one, where they try to hire women and 7:16

underrepresented minorities. 7:20

So a lot of people go through the Microsoft Leap program for two years. 7:22

And then they come out usually midlevel, or sometimes even senior, 7:26

depending how strong of an engineer they were. 7:30

So everyone offers those now. 7:33

There's Apple. 7:35

Apple has one. 7:37

Facebook has one. 7:37

So if you can get into one of those, then you're in a really good path. 7:39

But I would really recommend looking in non-traditional, like super tech sources. 7:43

So a lot of companies are still not technically savvy. 7:49

And there are manufacturing companies all over the Midwest that 7:53

need developers, that they can't get talent. 7:58

RYAN: Right. JAVIER: So I would look in places that people 8:02

aren't applying to, or aren't reaching out. 8:04

And the great thing about places like those is that you have a lot more 8:07

flexibility. 8:12

You'll usually have a senior engineer to teach you to mentor you more. 8:13

It would be non-traditional, so you won't be at a Facebook, but 8:17

you'll still be learning a lot of tech. 8:20

And you'll get kind of a bigger scope, because if you do get into a Facebook, or 8:22

a LinkedIn, or a Microsoft, or whatever, everything you do is so 8:27

hyperfocused and niche. 8:31

That sometimes, you don't learn as much as someone in a startup, or 8:33

in an early stage company. 8:36

RYAN: Got it. That way, it's more generalist. 8:38

JAVIER: Yeah. 8:41

RYAN: So you're sort of saying hey, consider tech companies outside of FAANG, 8:42

and all of the household names. 8:47

There could be some great companies just local to you that need 8:50

a general web developer. 8:54

And easier to get in, and you're gonna experience a more general set of 8:56

responsibilities, which will make you more well-rounded. 8:59

JAVIER: Yeah, and I think that's the best way, cuz right now, quite frankly, 9:03

I'm working with Reddit full-time, and we have an internship program. 9:07

We have a thing, 40 openings. 9:12

And just for the software developers alone, 9:15

we received 2 to 3,000 applications. 9:17

RYAN: Wow, okay, got it. 9:19

JAVIER: So it's, yeah. 9:20

RYAN: All right, first, wanna say hi to a couple folks in the chat. 9:22

Jonah, hello. 9:26

Nice to see yea. 9:28

Robert, hopefully you got the video to work. 9:30

And I think it's been worked. 9:32

It's working now. 9:33

And someone just said, Sarah, this is your first Team Treehouse event. 9:35

All right, keep questions coming in for Javier. 9:39

My team's gonna compile those, and we're gonna ask him. 9:41

So ask as many questions as you want. 9:45

JAVIER: [LAUGH] RYAN: And we'll do our best to answer it. 9:47

Next question, as an applicant, 9:50

what role does sites like LinkedIn and GitHub play in the job search? 9:52

And how can applicants maximize those tools? 9:57

JAVIER: Yeah, so I If you have a GitHub, I say customize it. 10:00

Make it very personal. 10:05

Make sure your readme.md is beautiful. 10:06

Those always stand out. 10:10

If I see an engineer that has one of those, 10:11

I always put them at top of my list, especially for frontend. 10:13

If you can make a really good readme on GitHub, then that's really showing talent. 10:16

And it doesn't take that long to do. 10:21

You could do that in a couple hours. 10:23

Now, there's also a bad side to using GitHub. 10:26

If you have a profile, and you don't put anything on it, 10:29

then I'm just gonna assume you're not really working on it. 10:31

So that's usually a red flag, or I would just pass over you. 10:34

Now, if you have a LinkedIn, LinkedIn is pretty much a necessary evil nowadays. 10:41

No one does not have LinkedIn. 10:47

But if you do really, really work on your LinkedIn, publish articles, 10:50

write stuff, communicate, network, make sure your LinkedIn is clean. 10:54

Make sure you have all the relevant experience. 10:59

And if you did do development projects, detail the languages you use. 11:01

Detail the scope of the project, because what my job is, 11:05

I'm always digging through LinkedIn to find the best engineers. 11:10

And the way the LinkedIn search and filter works is they actually scan your entire 11:15

profile, and make sure that you have the keywords that I'm looking for. 11:19

So if I could find those keywords, you're gonna show up in my list, and I'm most 11:24

likely gonna reach out to you, especially if you have a really clean profile. 11:28

RYAN: Got it. 11:31

So you said the word clean a couple times. 11:32

What are some things people should not be putting? 11:34

Can you get really practical with some advice on that? 11:37

JAVIER: Yeah, in terms of cleanness, if you have skills, try to make sure that people 11:41

endorse your skills, or understand that these are the skills that you do. 11:46

Don't put 100 different engineering skills if you only know 5 of them, 11:51

because that just dilutes your talents, or your focus. 11:56

Make sure your About Me section is really in-depth, and 12:00

tells exactly what you do, has your GitHub links. 12:04

Don't write your life story, but write a paragraph. 12:08

I love to learn about you before I even contact you. 12:10

And then I would recommend everyone here just to Google what a clean LinkedIn 12:14

developer profile looks like, because there is a method to 12:19

actually highlight all the skills and tech you use. 12:22

And that will put you in front of the line of people. 12:26

RYAN: Okay, cool. 12:28

Little challenge for the audience here. 12:29

If someone can Google that, pop a link or two into the chat, that'd be great. 12:32

So clean developer LinkedIn profile, Javier. 12:36

JAVIER: Yeah. 12:40

RYAN: Cool, I know I'm learning about 12:41

just the thousands of barriers bipoc 12:46

folks face that I don't face. 12:52

What about some practical things about your photo? 12:57

I know some sometimes people filter you out, your photo. 13:00

So what should people be doing, as far as the design of their LinkedIn profile? 13:03

JAVIER: I mean [COUGH], take a good picture with a white 13:08

background, or a nice background. 13:12

But I wouldn't put a picture you put on Facebook on LinkedIn, or 13:16

something where you're partying. 13:20

Or if you're artsy, maybe you'll have an artsy picture. 13:22

But it doesn't really flow well with recruiters, unless it's an art position. 13:25

But I mean, it's okay to keep it vanilla in this situation. 13:32

RYAN: Okay, all right. 13:37

There's a relevant question I just saw, so I'm just gonna ask it. 13:38

Would you put bootcamp into experience or education on LinkedIn? 13:41

Peter asked that. 13:45

JAVIER: I would put it into education. 13:46

RYAN: Education. 13:48

JAVIER: Yeah, don't put it into experience, cuz then it messes up the search stuff, but 13:48

definitely in education. 13:53

RYAN: Got it, okay. 13:55

Great advice so far, thanks. 13:57

So keep those questions coming in. 13:58

I just happened to ask that one. 14:00

But I'll be asking a bunch of questions at the end. 14:02

Okay, so looking at my list of questions here. 14:06

How do you recommend applicants to use their own network in the job 14:10

search process? 14:15

JAVIER: So [COUGH] quite frankly, 14:17

a third of the people we hire come in to referrals. 14:20

RYAN: Wow. 14:26

JAVIER: So you can apply to 100 jobs, but it's easier just to get somebody be like, 14:27

hey, I think this person is great. 14:32

You should interview them. 14:34

RYAN: Right. 14:36

JAVIER: And that's really the biggest step. 14:37

Most of the times, an interview with a recruiter, 14:38

as long as you don't say anything crazy, or incriminate yourself, or whatever, 14:41

you're gonna get to the next round. 14:45

Just check off the basic job description boxes, and then you're set. 14:48

RYAN: Okay, got it. 14:52

So can you talk about other resources for applicants, like professional groups for 14:55

people in tech, anything you can think of? 15:00

JAVIER: So definitely reach out to alumni from the college. 15:03

So spend a little time. 15:06

Actually, just ask your college to introduce you to people that do software 15:08

development or something, and they'll be happy to do that. 15:12

Then your bootcamp, or whatever education you took, reach out to those alumni. 15:16

A lot of them that may be three years ahead of you would love to reach back out 15:21

and put the ladder there for you to climb up. 15:25

There's other sources like career coaching, where you could pay somebody. 15:29

And then if they like you, they'll refer you into their network, because basically, 15:35

most companies, especially Google and Facebook, if a referral gets hired, 15:39

that you'd recommended they on average get like 10,000. 15:43

RYAN: Wow. JAVIER: So you get compensated really, 15:48

really well. 15:49

I think the official number for tech companies recruiting, 15:51

it's 15 to $20,000 to hire one technical person. 15:54

RYAN: Got it, okay. 15:57

Kind of an obvious question, but should people be reaching 16:00

out to recruiters like yourself, or directly to companies? 16:04

JAVIER: I would say reach out to recruiters that are in the right 16:11

position that you're looking for. 16:15

So if there is a recruiter for elite program like Microsoft, 16:19

which loves bootcamp grads, reach out to them. 16:22

But don't reach out to an engineer that's a recruiter that's hiring for 16:25

a senior machine learning position, because it just doesn't make sense. 16:29

RYAN: Got it. 16:34

Okay, so look, how do you tell what kind of folks recruiters are hiring for? 16:35

JAVIER: A lot of them write on their LinkedIn which teams they're on, or 16:40

what aspect of the company they're working on. 16:45

A cheat code also there a lot of people do is they'll do techrecruiting@company.com. 16:48

And that usually reaches all 20 or 30 recruiters on the team. 16:55

RYAN: Wow. 16:59

JAVIER: It's a good hack. 17:00

Just be very quick and easy on what you do, 17:01

what your resume is, and it works a lot, actually. 17:04

RYAN: Okay. 17:09

JAVIER: Yeah. 17:09

RYAN: Kind of one on one question, but what's the difference between an in-house 17:10

recruiter and an external recruiting company? 17:15

JAVIER: So in-house handles the entire lifecycle. 17:18

So that goes from finding the person, into hiring, including getting a job offers, 17:20

and all that stuff. 17:25

External, they'll mostly do the first screening, and 17:28

screen out anyone that probably won't be a good fit. 17:32

And they handle a lot of the sourcing manpower. 17:36

RYAN: Got it, okay. 17:39

I see some great questions coming in on the chat. 17:41

Thanks to you all, I appreciate that. 17:43

I know someone's coming from code differently, which is really cool. 17:46

Hello, all right. 17:49

Next question. 17:51

What advice do you have for folks who are transitioning to a technical role from 17:52

a non-technical role within tech? 17:57

JAVIER: It's gonna be tough, I won't lie. 17:59

But have as great as a portfolio as you can. 18:02

Show people that you're hungry to start your new career. 18:06

If you work at a company, try to get a job inside that company. 18:11

It's an easy transition to go from an accountant at this company, 18:19

to a technical person, maybe a level one. 18:23

But that's fine. 18:26

That's your step in the door. 18:26

And it's a lot easier to hire an intro company than outside. 18:29

RYAN: Interesting, so actually apply for a role. 18:33

It's not technical at all. 18:36

It's just at your target company, what skills you have, 18:38

get in the door makes getting into engineering a lot easier. 18:41

JAVIER: Yeah, so much more easier, especially if you have a good personality. 18:44

People just want you on your team. 18:48

RYAN: Okay, cool, great. 18:50

I'm just gonna pull up the list of questions. 18:52

Liz, thanks for sending these through. 18:54

I'm gonna start asking you questions. 18:57

JAVIER: Yeah, please. 18:59

RYAN: Got a flood of them coming in. 19:00

JAVIER: Awesome. 19:02

RYAN: So first one from Nick. 19:03

Hi, Javier. 19:05

Thanks for coming. 19:06

My question is at one level. 19:06

I'm not very diverse, white, male, openly straight, but I'm 52 and autistic. 19:08

I'm too old for junior roles and internships. 19:13

Believe me, I've tried. 19:16

Where do I find the really diverse companies who are thinking outside of 19:17

the box, in terms of recruitment?. 19:20

JAVIER: So I would definitely take a look locally. 19:21

In this approach, I would go towards local companies. 19:27

Try to meet people in person. 19:30

Take a more traditional approach. 19:32

Connect with business leaders. 19:34

I know there are some initiatives with people on the spectrum, 19:36

so you could also get a foot in the door there. 19:40

People are reaching out. 19:43

A lot of developers [COUGH], some of them are in the spectrum, and 19:44

they do wanna get other people in the door as well. 19:48

So look out there. 19:50

Definitely have a good portfolio. 19:52

And don't be afraid to do contract work, 19:54

cuz I mean, you don't need to work for a company. 19:57

If you get really good contractual work, 20:00

you could be bringing in a really nice salary. 20:02

RYAN: Got it. 20:04

So if you're sort of 45, 50-plus, 20:05

how can you use your age to your advantage? 20:12

JAVIER: There's definitely a maturity thing. 20:18

So a lot of younger engineers, some of them, or 20:20

a good chunk of them miss the coachability part. 20:23

So people are young, they're on fire, they wanna build the world or whatever. 20:27

It's hard to coach some of them, so the maturity. 20:32

When people see that you have a lot of potential, and you can be coached or 20:36

mentored, that's always a big plus when recruiting entry-level. 20:40

RYAN: Got it, yeah, it is funny. 20:43

The older we get, the more we realize we don't know anything. 20:45

JAVIER: Yeah, [LAUGH] RYAN: The more open to learning. 20:48

Yeah, I'm way more humble now in my forties than I was in my twenties, 20:52

that's for sure. 20:54

JAVIER: [LAUGH] RYAN: Okay, from Sonia, or Sophia, I'm sorry, 20:55

how do you identify someone who is reliable? 21:00

If you rejected someone's resume before, if they apply for 21:03

the job again, will you pass on that person? 21:08

JAVIER: It depends on why we rejected them. 21:12

So if it was a rejection because of a cultural difference, or 21:15

they just didn't fit in the company, then, yeah, I would probably pass. 21:17

But if they applied for a level five position, and 21:21

they are actually a level two, depends on the position. 21:24

If it's a level two or above, then I would probably interview them again. 21:28

RYAN: Got it, okay, from Virginia, what advice do you have for 21:31

career changers like me? 21:36

I don't have a college degree, I'm working through Treehouse via CodeLou, 21:38

my second track now. 21:42

Front-end web development first, and now JavaScript. 21:44

So essentially, career changer, doesn't have a college degree. 21:46

JAVIER: Okay, so the college degree doesn't really matter in tech. 21:50

It's starting to get phased out. 21:54

Even the big companies like Apple have a policy of not even to look at it anymore. 21:55

So I wouldn't worry too much there. 22:02

I would try to go to more, I would just look at startups, quite frankly, 22:04

cuz startups need a lot of help. 22:09

And they're risk-takers, so if you're willing to take the risk of joining 22:11

their company, they're usually willing to take the risk of teaching you, 22:15

and guiding you through the process. 22:18

RYAN: Got it, okay, and some of you have attended our past sessions. 22:20

We've shared tips from other speakers about building out your project portfolio, 22:28

and sort of booting up your own experience. 22:33

Javier, can you address that? 22:36

So if this is your first job you're applying for, 22:38

you don't have a college degree, 22:42

how can someone show that they're capable of doing the job to you, as a recruiter? 22:44

What are you really looking for? 22:50

JAVIER: So if you have a portfolio, 22:53

there's a science to a portfolio. 22:57

Depending on the skill level needed, if it's just a really nicely designed 23:02

portfolio, that's good enough to get you into the door. 23:06

But if you could make more technical projects, 23:09

that impresses the technical interviewers. 23:12

So definitely a one-two punch there, and then study the company. 23:15

A big part of the interview process is personality, would this person fit here? 23:21

RYAN: Got it, okay, tons of great questions coming in. 23:26

I see them all, thanks, everybody. 23:30

Wow, we're up to 345, thanks for joining us. 23:31

From Eduardo, any suggestions or tips to get a job as a remote 23:37

developer working for a US company from outside the US? 23:42

JAVIER: There's a lot of job boards for remote work. 23:46

So I would just Google top remote work job boards. 23:49

Target companies that already hire remote, especially overseas. 23:54

Overseas is a different beast, because of the way remittances and all that work. 23:58

So that's the best suggestion I would give. 24:03

RYAN: Okay, got it, yeah, I've noticed, there's usually a pretty clear line 24:06

between companies that only hire US residents, or 24:10

green card holders, versus those that are hiring outside. 24:13

And it's not even worth applying for 24:16

companies that just don't hire folks outside the US. 24:17

JAVIER: Exactly. 24:20

RYAN: Okay, from Elizabeth, can you please describe the levels you are referencing, 24:21

for instance, level two, level five? 24:27

JAVIER: Yeah, so I'm sorry about that. 24:30

Level one would be a recent graduate, boot camp, college, whatever. 24:31

Level two would be somebody with a year or two of experience. 24:37

Level three is a mid-level, so three to four to five, maybe. 24:40

And here's where it gets a little tricky. 24:45

Level three and above, the years stop mattering. 24:47

It's more like, how good of an engineer are you? 24:52

So eventually, once you get to level four, languages don't matter. 24:56

As long as you know object-oriented programming, everything's almost the same. 24:59

You just need to learn syntax. 25:03

So level four, you need to understand high-level, 25:04

how to build infrastructure and all that, architecture. 25:08

So, yeah, level three is mid-level, you understand most of the stuff. 25:12

You don't need that much guidance. 25:15

You go to level four, you're a senior level, 25:17

you can probably start leading a one or two, three people. 25:19

You know how to build systems. 25:22

And then you go into level five, which is staff level. 25:25

And there, you usually have a team of five or more. 25:28

That's usually seven or eight years of experience. 25:32

And principal is probably the highest, and 25:35

that's usually ten or more years of experience. 25:38

And in those situations, you kinda own a part of the codebase. 25:42

RYAN: Got it, and so there is no level one? 25:45

JAVIER: Level one is just entry level. 25:50

RYAN: Okay, got it, and actually, I'll say that question after. 25:51

I've got a lot more to get through, so thanks for clarifying that. 25:57

Okay, gosh, you are asking a ton of questions, this is great. 25:59

Next up, from Faith, is there an age bias in hiring? 26:04

JAVIER: I would say legally, there isn't. 26:11

But I would say, in terms of just skills on your resume and 26:14

all that, you will most likely get filtered out if 26:19

you're brand-new to the technical workforce. 26:23

So it really just comes down to how people filter out resumes, and 26:28

job requirements and all that. 26:33

RYAN: Okay, how many companies would you typically recommend 26:35

people apply to, in order to get one job? 26:42

JAVIER: It's funny, if you're just starting, I recommend you apply to a lot. 26:47

I've spoken to people that have just started doing 20 to 40 applications 26:54

before they get in the door. 26:59

But that's why I recommend the shortcuts. 27:00

Contact somebody you know how already works there. 27:03

Start at a different department, transition over. 27:06

Join the Leap program, that specifically targets URMs, or 27:09

people that are new to the workforce. 27:13

Try anything you can, because there is a lot of competition right now. 27:16

RYAN: Got it, yep, and we've even heard numbers as high as 100-plus applications, 27:20

in order to make it happen. 27:26

So everybody that's with us today, just remember, yeah, 27:27

it's gonna be a lot of work in getting that first job. 27:33

It's okay, it's part of the journey. 27:37

Okay, I'm keeping going on these questions. 27:41

From Megan, what's the best way to show a career change in a positive light? 27:44

For me, it's a huge change from healthcare to development. 27:48

JAVIER: That's a good one, I would say target a company that's working in healthcare. 27:53

So go to the healthcare vertical, there are so 27:59

many tech companies there, so many tech startups. 28:02

Tech startups actually is probably your best bet. 28:05

Cuz healthcare is such a regulated industry that a lot of times, 28:08

founders don't even know what the hell they're doing. 28:12

And they've never heard of HIPAA, or the privacy. 28:15

So you could be a guiding light there. 28:18

And I'm not gonna lie to you, 28:21

working in regulated industries is not that fun, and it's easy to burn out. 28:23

So a lot of engineers do it for a year or two or three, and then they move on, 28:29

because just the nature of, even simple changes get scrutinized by regulators. 28:34

RYAN: Got it, okay, that's an interesting idea, though. 28:39

To kind of stay within the same vertical you're in, but 28:41

just look for tech companies in that vertical. 28:45

Tons of great questions coming in. 28:49

Hey, Abby, hey, Juan, hello, Justin, good to see you all. 28:51

All right, from Charlton, 28:55

of the last two to three candidates that immediately made 28:57

it to the top of your list, what were the common traits? 29:03

JAVIER: One worked at Apple, at Facebook, at Google. 29:08

RYAN: Got it. 29:12

JAVIER: So his resume was 1,000%, whatever. 29:12

Others just had a really, really strong GitHub, and 29:18

they worked at a small company I never heard of. 29:21

So they were shining starts, just ready to get dug up. 29:24

I would say the last one probably came from, the third one came from a referral. 29:30

RYAN: Interesting. 29:34

JAVIER: Yeah. 29:34

RYAN: Okay, from Keenan, is it just undergrad degrees that get ignored a lot, 29:35

or would Master's degrees get bypassed as well? 29:41

And would boot camp degrees get overlooked too? 29:45

JAVIER: I mean, they all equally get a scrutiny. 29:49

So I would always recommend, if you're in undergrad, go for 29:54

the target companies that recruit from your school. 29:58

Because they already have a quota of hiring a hundred undergrads, 30:02

same with Treehouse. 30:06

I know you guys have a lot of partnerships, so 30:07

try to see the companies that hire from Treehouse. 30:09

You're gonna have a much easier time getting it to those companies. 30:11

Master degrees, the same like undergrad. 30:15

There's a lot of hires. 30:18

Giving an example, The Berkeley in California, a ton of companies hire 30:20

undergrad students there, and they kinda use the college theme as a filter. 30:25

The same exists everywhere. 30:31

RYAN: Okay, great. 30:33

From Josh, any advice for someone looking for 30:37

their first real job after coding on their own for six years? 30:39

I've started a couple companies on my own, had a couple failures, 30:43

and need to break into the job market. 30:47

JAVIER: Okay, so that's an interesting one. 30:49

It really depends on the size of your startup. 30:51

Because if you were a lone developer, 30:54

a lot of people are gonna look at it as like, okay? 30:56

It may be hard to work with you because you only know how to work by yourself, 31:00

maybe you were never criticized on your code or worked in pair programming. 31:04

So there is gonna be a bias there from the engineering team. 31:10

So I would just make it upfront and clear wherever you go. 31:13

I've been a lone coder, I've been a startup coder, 31:16

but I wanna work in the team, and this is what I'm gonna do to be successful there. 31:19

RYAN: Got it, yeah, that makes sense. 31:23

I wonder as well, if you'd be really successful and 31:26

being an engineer in the marketing department or the side of the business 31:29

that is gonna be a little bit more entrepreneurial, but I don't know. 31:34

JAVIER: [LAUGH]. RYAN: How do you identify which teams you're 31:39

theoretically interviewing for at large companies? 31:42

Is that obvious from the job posting or? 31:46

JAVIER: Yeah, usually it is unless, I mean recruiters on 31:48

the back end we do trade candidates with each other. 31:52

Sometimes one candidate that we really love didn't get hired, but 31:57

they would be great for the other part of the company. 32:00

So if you're good and you did really well, 32:03

companies usually try to put you somewhere. 32:06

RYAN: Got it, okay. 32:09

Got lots more good questions getting through. 32:10

Let's see, next up. 32:14

From Ron, I'm 47 years old with no coding experience. 32:16

I would like to get into coding and web design. 32:21

Where do I start, any apprenticeships? 32:24

JAVIER: There are ton of apprenticeships, I would Google the ones you could find. 32:26

With this one I was just get your boots on the ground, 32:32

work with small businesses, get introduced to business leaders, 32:36

tap into your own existing network of who needs work. 32:41

Contract is okay, and build up your portfolio while you're applying to 32:46

different companies or do a startup or whatever, it's a good time right now. 32:50

RYAN: Cool, that's great advice. 32:56

One thing that we've seen work a lot, Ron, us as you're learning web design and 32:57

web development, you're gonna be creating projects, websites, web apps. 33:03

And then when you feel comfortable, you can go just to a local company that's 33:08

really small and say, hey, I'd love to launch a new website for you. 33:12

Do it for free at first, right, and you do your first project. 33:17

And then you've got a real thing on the Internet you did for somebody else. 33:20

And that's your first real project and then you do it again, but 33:24

next time you charge a little bit of money, right? 33:27

So you kind of ladder yourself up into I've got several paid projects for 33:29

real companies that live on the Internet. 33:33

So it's a way to kind of build your resume. 33:36

Okay, more good questions. 33:40

Let's see, from Marina, what exactly do you mean by portfolio? 33:41

JAVIER: Having a website with your name and last name. 33:49

So I have my own website called javierdutan.com and has my link to my 33:51

LinkedIn and my GitHub, which I am a hypocrite, my GitHub is empty. 33:55

RYAN: [LAUGH] JAVIER: But I don't want to be an engineer. 33:59

I don't think I have the right training at the moment. 34:02

RYAN: Got it, so get a domain, that is ideally your first name and last name.com. 34:05

So pick a very straightforward professional design and 34:13

just list your projects. 34:15

JAVIER: Yeah, keep it simple, 34:17

even though you're linked to your resume on your website. 34:19

RYAN: Cool, yeah, I'll echo Javier's comments, 34:23

it just kind of sets you a little bit apart if you have your own site. 34:26

And kind of shows, okay, you've thought about, yeah, it's just that little 34:30

thing that makes you a little bit more trustworthy, a little bit more noticeable. 34:35

So, okay, from Laura, I'm 56 with 34:40

lots of transferable soft skills. 34:45

I don't know how to represent this on my resume, but 34:50

it's included on my LinkedIn, any suggestions? 34:53

JAVIER: With this one same as before, either do local projects and 34:56

build your way up, or join a company with your really strong 35:01

soft skills, and slowly transition to a technical role. 35:06

RYAN: Got it. 35:11

Okay, from Ryan, not me, another Ryan. 35:12

What are common or the most common gaps that's self-taught or non-traditional 35:17

For instance, boot campers have that more traditional applicants with a four year 35:24

degree or equivalent. 35:29

So what are the common gaps you see from boot campers versus computer 35:30

science grads? 35:34

JAVIER: Yeah, so computer science grads, they have a year or 35:36

two of just system design, and database design. 35:39

And being in front of everyone here, 35:43

spend a month just learning how to do system design interviews. 35:46

There's a ton of YouTube channels for it. 35:52

Just watch videos and how Google interviews because a lot of companies 35:56

copied how Google does their system design architecture, programming projects, 36:00

technical phone screen interviews. 36:05

So that's an easy cheat code. 36:07

But yeah, if you're a self-taught engineer, you probably didn't focus 36:10

on that too much, and you just cranked out code that worked, but 36:14

maybe you didn't know the reason why or that's kind of in the same position. 36:18

I need to really dig down to system design if I were to ever go to work for 36:22

a company for that. 36:27

RYAN: Got it, okay, great. 36:29

From Tina, 36:32

what are some other new tech roles to pursue to break into the industry. 36:33

So, do you understand the question? 36:38

JAVIER: Yeah, I think new stuff coming out right now, 36:40

DevOps is huge demand. 36:46

Security is in big demand right now. 36:49

Cloud infrastructure, that's kind of easier to get in, 36:51

but that's a substantive DevOps. 36:57

Quite honestly, coding for iOS and Android has gotten a lot easier. 37:05

Now that we have Swift and Kotlin, you can actually learn two different languages. 37:08

You only need to learn one language to do two different platforms. 37:13

RYAN: Yeah. 37:17

JAVIER: But the biggest, biggest one, I think Ryan, 37:18

what you were saying earlier is being a dedicated developer. 37:23

It's like a sales department or marketing department where you work with data and 37:28

set up dashboards and feeds, 37:33

data analysts is something that's getting really big right now. 37:34

RYAN: Got it, okay, cool. 37:38

Yeah, we're gonna launch our data analysis tech degree this year so we're excited. 37:40

JAVIER: Awesome. 37:45

RYAN: Yeah, okay, next up, there's so many questions. 37:45

I'm looking over at Slack. 37:49

I'm doing when I look over here. 37:51

Okay, from Kenny, is self-taught frowned upon on a resume? 37:53

JAVIER: I wouldn't highlight myself as self-taught. 38:03

I would put my LinkedIn thing as senior software engineer or 38:05

senior Android engineer or whatever. 38:09

It's not really frowned upon, but 38:11

it's always better to label yourself as what your core skill is. 38:14

RYAN: Okay, got it. 38:18

So focus on the skills you learned while you taught yourself. 38:20

JAVIER: Yeah. 38:24

RYAN: And the things you built. 38:25

Got it, from Bailey, I've been a stay at home mom for 38:26

five years and now I'm trying to start a career in web dev. 38:31

Will that five-year gap hurt my chances? 38:35

JAVIER: It most likely will filter you out. 38:38

But there are a lot of initiatives for 38:46

mothers who work returning to the workforce. 38:48

So Google has some, Facebook has some where they'll consider you. 38:52

There's a couple of startups that are focusing on this exclusively. 38:59

So the Mom Project is one of the big ones. 39:02

I would look at that. 39:05

Definitely as a woman engineer, there's also a ton of other resources, 39:06

like Power to Fly where you get career coaching. 39:11

Again, like all those lead programs so 39:15

I would definitely take advantage of all of that. 39:18

RYAN: Got it, and as someone who's married to a mother, 39:21

I would encourage if you can make it past the first 39:26

screen to highlight your amazing ability to 39:32

multitask, to work extremely hard. 39:36

There's skills that full time parents have that 39:40

are extremely valuable and in the workforce. 39:44

Age, experience, just the ability to deal with all sorts of stress. 39:48

So, highlight the fact that you're great at that. 39:55

And I think inclusive open-minded companies will actually relish 39:58

that thought. 40:02

So And like we said in the intro to this, beside it being the right 40:03

thing to do to diversify teams, it's tremendously valuable for the company. 40:09

If you can have mothers on your engineering team, then they're 40:14

gonna bring a perspective that young white guys that have a computer science degree, 40:19

that don't have that life skill and experience is tremendously valuable. 40:25

All right, moving on. 40:31

Okay, from Kenny, contract versus full time. 40:36

I'm married with three kids and need the stability and health insurance, 40:38

is contract really feasible in this situation? 40:42

JAVIER: Depends on how much you're making as a contract. 40:47

So healthcare is just crazy expensive. 40:49

So, it would just depend how much your healthcare costs are gonna be versus how 40:54

much you would get paid as a contractor versus what you would make at 40:58

a traditional company. 41:02

So you would have to balance it out. 41:04

But contract is great, I know developers that have three or four clients and 41:05

they're bringing in a lot of money a year. 41:10

So it's not bad and you could always self incorporate, and 41:14

buy healthcare through your own company, which would be like your LLC or something. 41:17

So it just just depends how much your contract is how much you're making 41:21

basically. 41:25

RYAN: Cool, okay, all right from Rachel. 41:26

Of the specific types of projects that one's portfolio should include, for say, 41:32

a front end dev. 41:37

And is it common to have majority of projects you've created from your 41:39

development program? 41:42

JAVIER: Yeah, so definitely have the ones from your developer programs if you're 41:45

allowed to share. 41:47

Try to make projects that are actually interactive and don't clone dashboards 41:50

that you see that look nice, but they don't have virtually no code behind it. 41:54

So if you made a one-pager that had a timer or an interactive module on it, 41:59

that's more valuable than having a dashboard you copied and 42:04

clone that has 20 pages. 42:08

RYAN: Got it, yeah, okay, from Tim, it feels like recruiters 42:10

are always trying to push people into temporary contract roles. 42:15

What is the best way to get into a full time hire with a company role instead of 42:20

just on contract? 42:24

How do we know contract to hire roles are not just carrot dangles? 42:26

JAVIER: I don't really deal with those type of recruiters, 42:33

we do full-time placements in agency, but I mean that is the nature of the game. 42:37

Sometimes people just need somebody to do the work for this amount of time. 42:43

So it could be an advantage. 42:48

You could get two or three clients. 42:49

Or you could constantly keep learning. 42:51

But, yeah, it just depends. 42:53

Recruiters are the ones sending the message out. 42:57

It's usually leadership that's setting up the budgets and all that. 42:59

RYAN: Got it, okay. 43:04

From Danielle, how important is it, a personal GitHub, 43:06

when you enjoy development as a job, but don't code as a hobby? 43:10

If you have a history of development jobs, but 43:14

don't have a personal GitHub is a big deal. 43:16

JAVIER: It's not really, if you have a list of the companies you've worked at, 43:20

once you get to the IC2 or IC3 level, GitHub becomes less important. 43:25

RYAN: Got it. JAVIER: But 43:31

if you do wanna get like those really good jobs with really big companies and 43:32

I would continue to upkeep your GitHub or work on open source projects. 43:36

RYAN: Okay, yeah, good call on open source. 43:40

Got it, okay. 43:42

All right from Connor, which is best, front end web developer, software 43:48

developer, Python data analysts for best job opportunities for career change at 32? 43:53

JAVIER: Python data analyst. 43:59

RYAN: Got it. 44:01

JAVIER: Yep, 100%. 44:02

RYAN: Okay, interesting cool. 44:03

From Colin, do you have recommended places to look for resources and job for 44:05

BIPOC, women, parents, people over 40, neurodivergent, and LGBTQ. 44:10

JAVIER: Yeah, definitely, I would look at diversifytech.co. 44:17

Ryan, after the call, I can send you a list cuz I have a ton of them as well. 44:24

But yeah, I'll just send the list after this call. 44:29

RYAN: Okay, cool, great. 44:32

And maybe team, we can figure out how to then 44:34

email that to all of you who are joining us today. 44:39

We'll try to figure that out. 44:44

Okay, great. 44:46

Okay, from Zachary, what's the best way to find 44:49

startup companies and make connections? 44:53

JAVIER: There's so many startup things, but I'll just write this in our chat. 44:57

RYAN: Okay. JAVIER: But there's a website called Builtin, 45:02

there's Angel.Co. 45:07

LinkedIn has a ton them, so just type in LinkedIn startups. 45:10

Builtin and Angel.Co are probably some of the biggest ones. 45:14

Wherever you live, look up your local accelerator or 45:20

co-working space because they have a big network of startups there. 45:23

So you can also get jobs from there actually, it's really easy to get a job. 45:27

I just started that sort of accelerator because they're ramping up and 45:33

need talent immediately. 45:36

RYAN: Got it, okay, that's a good point, cool, okay. 45:37

This is from Juan, 45:42

what's the minimum amount of work on GitHub to be taken seriously? 45:44

JAVIER: I would rather see a project that has a lot of stars than 45:50

seeing 5 million projects with no stars. 45:54

RYAN: Interesting. 45:59

JAVIER: So, work on something that other people are cloning or favoriting. 45:59

And that's why I said go open source because an open-source, if you contribute, 46:06

well, people are gonna reward you and start following you. 46:10

So it's a big thing there. 46:13

RYAN: Okay, cool, got it. 46:15

Doing great at this just firehose of questions, thank you. 46:19

[LAUGH] JAVIER: Christian just put a link and 46:22

that's a good place to look at jobs as well. 46:25

The Y Combinator blog. 46:27

RYAN: Cool, great. 46:29

Cool, and there's two chats, just so everybody knows. 46:30

In the right if you click events and then stage and both of those are accessible. 46:35

So make sure you're looking at both, okay? 46:43

We have, let me just check on time, yeah, 46:47

we've got a little less than ten minutes, about eight minutes. 46:50

So I'll try to get through as many of these as I can, let's see, okay. 46:55

From Ryan, are there or have there been industry gaps 47:01

regarding regarding certain technologies, languages, etc, 47:05

where boot camp students can jump in or focus, Cobalt, Ruby, PHP? 47:10

Is there anything particular that's blowing up that you could just focus 47:15

on and find it easier to get a job in? 47:17

JAVIER: Always go for the latest and greatest languages. 47:20

So Ruby on Rails has started to get overtaken by Elixir or Phoenix. 47:25

Go Lang is the next big thing in microservices. 47:30

People are starting to do TypeScript more. 47:33

So, try to stay with the newest thing. 47:37

There's other languages like Flutter that Google makes, but 47:42

Google abandons language is so fast. 47:45

So it's kind of a risk, but you'll learn a lot regardless if you do adopt it. 47:47

Yeah, just go upstream, Python has Django now. 47:55

And I know a lot of languages are very similar. 48:00

So, if you learn Django, you can easily learn Go Lang in a month or two. 48:03

RYAN: Cool. 48:07

JAVIER: So- RYAN: Got it, okay. 48:08

JAVIER: Don't learn Objective C here at the moment unless you want to work for Apple. 48:10

RYAN: Yeah, no, that's a good point. 48:13

It's a hard balance cuz I think a lot of the folks that are Treehouse students 48:17

are beginners, 48:21

and it's almost overwhelming the choices that they can make. 48:22

So, yes, we hear you, hey, focus on the latest and greatest, but 48:27

also there's this worry. 48:32

How in the world do I learn all this stuff? 48:33

If folks want the most widely in-demand skills, 48:36

you mentioned Python data analysis, but 48:42

what if you're on the web dev side? 48:46

What should they be focusing on? 48:51

JAVIER: Web dev should definitely 48:54

If you're gonna doing Ruby, Ruby is a good web one, but I would say Go Lang. 48:58

Is everyone's adopting Go Lang or anything with microservices. 49:05

RYAN: Okay, JAVIER: That's for back end, and for 49:08

front end, just stick to React or TypeScript and 49:11

just make sure you're really good at JavaScript. 49:15

RYAN: Got it, JavaScript, okay, cool. 49:19

All right, [SOUND] from Bee, if a person is still studying, will you hire them? 49:23

JAVIER: Yeah, it doesn't matter. 49:31

RYAN: Okay, cool, nice, simple answer. 49:32

From Pronchu, how important is diverse tech experience, 49:35

does working on a single technology for a long time hamper you or help you? 49:39

JAVIER: I mean, if you're working across the full stack, how to take a product 49:49

from conception to production and launch, it won't really hamper you. 49:54

But if you're solely focused on just handling one part of the software 49:59

development life cycle, then yeah. 50:03

We're gonna get limited a little bit. 50:05

RYAN: Got it, all right. 50:08

From Zach, how do you capture skills and training attained through non-traditional 50:12

schooling and education such as Treehouse, Coursera, Code Academy, Free Code Camp? 50:16

Are those worth listing or 50:21

is it better just to link to examples of projects you've worked on? 50:22

JAVIER: At the end of day, like if your projects are really nice and 50:27

your GitHub has a ton of stars, that's more valuable. 50:30

RYAN: Agreed, yeah. 50:34

And as the founder of Treehouse, I agree with that statement. 50:35

People are gonna take your projects more seriously than where you learned. 50:38

Yes, I love Treehouse and I think even more but honestly, folks that are hiring, 50:44

just wanna see your projects. 50:48

So I'd focus on that. 50:51

Okay, from Robert, advice for people looking for 50:53

information cybersecurity positions. 50:56

JAVIER: So cybersecurity is a good place where you can actually, 51:00

if you're a veteran, cybersecurity is an amazing place to be in right now. 51:04

There's so much hiring and defense contractors, 51:10

as well as like people are starting to take cybersecurity more. 51:13

Like it's not a line item on the budget anymore. 51:19

It's actually something that could really affect your stock price and everything. 51:22

So, definitely try to get your yourself in there and 51:25

then if you do go into cybersecurity, try to get into auditing. 51:29

That's where like the big money is. 51:33

RYAN: Okay, auditing, all right, cool. 51:35

From Peter, as a full-stack bootcamp grad, what should you bill yourself as software 51:39

engineer, web developer, there are so many options and labels? 51:43

JAVIER: I guess it depends where you wanna focus. 51:49

But if you wanna do the full stack, just a full stack web developer. 51:51

But if you only wanna do frontend just label yourself appropriately. 51:54

RYAN: Okay, got it. 51:59

From Preston, what are the top two skills to develop for 52:01

a junior data engineer or working data science, Python and SQL question mark? 52:05

JAVIER: Yeah, Python SQL, Jupiter, MATLAB like any of the traditional ones. 52:11

But at the end of day, I don't know too much about data science, 52:16

but the core skills that can be transferable to any languages so 52:21

it's the best way to go. 52:26

RYAN: Cool, got it. 52:28

Okay, from Kareem, thanks for doing this. 52:31

What do you look for 52:34

in midlevel developers as opposed to junior developers? 52:35

JAVIER: In midlevel, we look for people that are on the border of 52:39

being able to work without given direction, so yeah. 52:44

RYAN: Cool, it makes perfect sense. 52:49

All right, time for a couple more. 52:52

From Bee, how important are sites like HackerRank, leet code, etc., 52:54

when you are technical recruiting? 52:59

I'm frontend and 53:02

have received several tests that have nothing to do with the frontend. 53:03

JAVIER: if you get a certification like put that in your LinkedIn like put that in 53:07

your portfolio. 53:12

I know Treehouse has certifications and 53:14

those give a lot of people good weight, so. 53:17

RYAN: Okay, and Bee I'd say, 53:21

you shouldn't be getting backend questions if you're preparing for 53:23

frontend so that's probably a sign like this seems wrong this company. 53:28

But, it probably doesn't hurt to mess around with HackerRank, 53:34

for instance, and start to get experience in case you come up with 53:39

stuff like that plus to be able to talk to backend engineers better. 53:44

But I think if companies are firing kind of random tech questions at you that 53:49

are in the job description, something's wrong with them. 53:53

So, from Jerry, what are your thoughts on people who specialize in just frontend? 53:56

Can you have a successful career in it? 54:02

JAVIER: Yeah, absolutely. 54:04

There's so much demand for frontend people, like to be super focused 54:06

on the frontend part that it's just as competitive as backend. 54:11

Like the in frontend, you can go up to like a principal level so 54:16

I don't see any downfalls at all. 54:20

RYAN: Got it, okay, cool. 54:22

Last question. 54:25

I really appreciate you all asking so many great questions. 54:28

From Oteil, any advice for 54:32

Ruby on Rails developer wanting to move from backends to more of a frontend role? 54:34

JAVIER: I think it'd be very valuable like learning continuing to do both. 54:41

Because full-stack Ruby on Rail engineers are in high demand. 54:45

So I wouldn't just limit yourself go in frontend, 54:49

it'd be very valuable to stay with both. 54:52

RYAN: Okay, cool, great. 54:55

So, I think it's time to just transition into our networking session. 54:56

Javier, any last words of wisdom or 55:02

parting thoughts you wanna leave the audience with? 55:04

JAVIER: Yeah, I mean, keep attending meetings like these, like network your butt off. 55:09

You're already ahead of like a lot of people just by being here. 55:15

And the most important thing is just code like an hour of coding is way more 55:19

valuable than watching YouTube videos or watching like people like me speak. 55:24

It's like you need to be coding all that time when you have time of course. 55:29

RYAN: Yes, got it. 55:33

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and passion and 55:35

just being very straightforward and thank you for supporting, 55:38

diversifying the tech industry. 55:41

Really, really appreciate that and thanks for spending your valuable time with us. 55:43