How to Raise Your Profile in the Web Industry - with Chris Coyier

[??] 0:00 [treehouse friends] 0:03 So, who are you and what do you do-- 0:05 [interview with chris coyier] Chris, web designer. [chuckles] 0:07 [Petitt] for people that have no familiarity with you at all, 0:09 which is probably only just a few people. 0:13 No, most people, I feel like. I hope. 0:15 My name is Chris. Nice to meet you. 0:19 Nice to meet you, Chris. >>Yeah. I work on the Internet. Yeah. 0:22 I build websites and write about websites, and I like to teach web design and just everything. 0:26 I'm just fascinated by the Internet, really. >>Cool. 0:31 So you're a pretty popular figure in the web industry. >>Thanks. 0:34 I'd say you're a thought leader. >>[whispers] Oh. 0:39 You recently broke 40,000 followers on Twitter. >>Oh, my God. Did I? 0:42 You did. >>Should I check? >>Yeah, you can check. 0:47 You just broke it. >>I should have a party. 0:50 Well, I mean, it is just a number but it's--you know. 0:53 Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's tremendously useful actually, because I travel a little bit, right? 0:57 And at that number you can be like, "What's a good restaurant?" at any time of the day 1:00 and somebody is like, "I want to answer your question." 1:04 I think that's my favorite part of it, really. >>Twitter is now your Google. 1:07 Somebody the other day was like, "You should monetize that." 1:11 Two people in the last week told me about how I should monetize my Twitter screen 1:13 and I'm like, "I reject this comment, sir. I will never do that." 1:17 By tweeting about Ferrari or something like that or doing sponsor tweets? >>Yeah. 1:20 There's actually services--yeah, sponsor tweets that are like-- 1:24 And I don't care if you do, but it's not right for me. It feels gross to me. 1:27 Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. 1:31 We're going to talk about how to raise your profile in the web industry 1:33 or how you raised your profile in the web industry and how other people can do that. 1:36 But before we get to that, I want to just kind of ask you some basic background questions. 1:40 What is your background? 1:46 Actually, first I want to ask you what did you want to be when you grew up, 1:48 because not a lot of people-- >>Probably like a dinosaur captain. Is that a thing? 1:52 [Pettit laughs] >>I don't know. I don't have a super "I want to be an astronaut" or anything. 1:57 I don't know. What did you want to be when you grew up, Nick? 2:03 I think astronaut was probably in there at some point or another. 2:06 Yeah. >>But I don't think I was thinking, "I want to be a web designer when I grow up." 2:09 No, certainly not. Well, that's because there wasn't a Web. 2:14 So that would have been really weird if you wanted to be a web designer 2:16 before there was an Internet. >>I would have been able to see into the future. Yeah. 2:18 I liked art and stuff, like later, especially high school. 2:22 I was into ceramics and stuff like that, but I was also a nerd. 2:28 In high school there was a Turbo Pascal class that I thought was so rad. 2:31 I really liked that language a lot, so I was like both throwing pots and writing Pascal. 2:37 I couldn't even decide which 2 I liked more than that. 2:42 Then I went to college and I was like, "I better do the Pascal thing, probably, 2:45 "because that's where the--" That's certainly what the folks wanted me to do. 2:48 I did it for a while and then I got to take 1 class in that 2:52 and then it's like, "Now take assembly," or whatever and I'm like, "Oh, worst." 2:55 You had to learn a bunch of-- I hated computer science. 3:00 I did 4 years of computer science in college and then I was like, "I can't do it anymore." 3:02 "I don't like these people." 3:05 And then my roommate went for ceramics and he was just always-- 3:07 The attitude in the art culture in college was so much better 3:10 and the people he was hanging out with were funner and I was like, "I want to be that." 3:13 "Sorry, parents. I'm going to switch at the end of my computer science degree to art." 3:18 And then I ended up getting a degree, a Bachelor of Arts, in ceramics/graphic design. 3:22 So right after that, what were some of the first jobs you worked, 3:28 or were you just always freelancing? >>No. 3:32 Immediately after college I took a job at kind of like a Best Buy kind of thing. 3:35 It wasn't Best Buy. It was like a smaller, local chain of that. 3:38 So every week in the paper was one of those gross, all color 3:41 "Super Warehouse Sale!" 3:47 and it was 12 pages of stuff on sale, and every week was a new thing. 3:50 I worked on a design team. 3:53 It was a whole bunch of designers because it's kind of fast-paced 3:55 to put out a book every single week. 3:57 So you're like, "Okay, this week you have page 7 and 5." 3:59 You'd have to lay out the stuff and put big, stupid bursts 4:01 about how on sale it was or whatever. 4:04 It was print design right after college. 4:07 I wanted to work in web. Web was cool. 4:09 But it was one of those things where it's hard to convince somebody to hire you for a web job 4:11 when you're so green. 4:14 So how did you make that transition into web design? >>I just did it on the side. 4:17 I was also playing in bands. 4:20 I play the banjo, and I was playing in some bluegrass bands and stuff and I was like, 4:22 "I'm going to make our website." I really wanted to because I had some computer science. 4:25 I was like, "I'm good at computers. I can do this." 4:30 I ended up just downloading WordPress and installing that on a domain that I bought. 4:32 I was like, "I'm going to use this awesome music template I got." 4:36 I uploaded that and I was like, "I need to change the colors and stuff." 4:39 "What's in this fancy little CSS file?" 4:42 WordPress and a band website was my intro into it, 4:45 and I find that it's the most common story ever for people that got into web design. 4:48 So many people I talk to are like, "Oh, I had to make a band website, 4:52 "so now I'm a web designer." 4:55 50% of web designers, that's their story. 4:57 So did you jump into freelance work after that, or did you-- 5:01 I've never really done freelance. >>Really? 5:04 No. >>So you never did any kind of client work or anything like that? 5:06 I did client work because after that weird Best Buy-ish place 5:09 then I kind of regressed a little bit and went into prepress. 5:12 I shouldn't say regressed. I think prepress is fun. 5:16 It's like taking digital files that you get from designers 5:19 and getting them ready to go to press. 5:21 And it was fun because it appealed to all of my nerdier senses 5:23 because there's so much. 5:27 People don't even realize all the stuff that has to go into preparing a file for press. 5:29 But I didn't get any-- There's no real creativity. 5:34 You can be creative in weird, abstract ways 5:37 like how an accountant can be creative, 5:39 but you're not actually being creative like with art. 5:41 And then after that I was building websites on the side-- 5:44 because of course that's the other story that everybody has-- 5:48 and built enough of those that I was able to get a job at an agency that did client work 5:52 just by showing them cool sites I did for myself and stuff, like, 5:57 "I have a blog. Check it out. It's cool. I made it by myself." 6:01 That was enough. >>So for the last couple of years you've worked at Wufoo. 6:05 How does that story begin, and what was that experience like? 6:09 The agency that I worked at just out of Madison, Wisconsin--Chatman Design, 6:13 still a great place--I worked there for years. 6:17 Kind of just as I started that I started CSS-Tricks too. 6:23 So it was like I was thrown into the fire. I was the only web guy there. 6:26 I was like, "I've got to learn all this really fast." 6:28 And so I was kind of blogging it as I was learning it, which was CSS-Tricks, 6:31 and then that started to grow. As I worked there, I got better at the Web. 6:34 And then I got invited to speak at a Front-End Design Conference, 6:37 which was in St. Petersburg, Florida. 6:41 It was the first time I was ever invited to speak. I was super excited. 6:43 And Kevin Hale was also speaking at it, who is one of the founders of Wufoo, 6:45 and we met there, and then just maybe a month or so after that he just called me and was like, 6:48 "Hey, you want to work for Wufoo?" 6:53 It wasn't just as simple as that because I was kind of a super fan of Wufoo before that 6:55 just because it's just a great app. 6:58 I'm still kind of passionate about it to this day. 7:01 "Oh, my God. That Wufoo is so awesome, you guys." >>Sure. 7:03 Yeah. I just said, "Yes, I will accept your job and move to Tampa, Florida." 7:06 And so what was that like? What was the culture at Wufoo like? 7:11 It was so cool. We actually crafted the culture at Wufoo. It wasn't just this organic thing. 7:14 We were like, "We're going to make decisions deliberately to make our culture cooler." 7:19 So we worked from home, we worked 4-day weeks, like you did-- 7:23 or you do currently--which is really nice. 7:29 Anybody listening that can influence your workplace, 7:32 please do that because it's super good. 7:34 But there's some science behind that stuff. 7:37 It's like building and recovery periods. 7:39 There's this cool chart that Kevin has that shows you work 40 hours a week 7:41 and you have this productivity. 7:46 So there's baseline productivity and you're working 40 hours a week. 7:48 And let's say there's this deadline coming up that you have crunch time for, 7:50 so you make everybody work 60 hours a week. 7:53 Well, productivity is way above average because they're working more. 7:55 And that works fine for about 4 weeks, 7:59 and then at that point you're worse, 8:01 you do worse work than if you would be working just 40-hour weeks. 8:04 I don't know. There's some kind of studies and science behind all this. 8:08 But your perceived productivity stays high so you think you're doing all good 8:11 but you're really not. It's kind of weird. 8:15 So don't do that. You can't just work 60-hour weeks all the time. 8:18 So part of this was like, "But we want to utilize crunch time," 8:21 because crunch time can be really useful to get big bursts of work. 8:24 So you have to do that and build in recovery time, 8:28 like giving people time off and vacations and stuff like that. 8:31 I feel like I'm kind of rambling a little bit. But you get it, right? 8:34 It's nice having Friday. 8:37 And so we didn't bother each other with meetings during the week. 8:39 We had 1 meeting a week. It was on Friday. 8:42 We had no office, so we would rotate houses. 8:44 So it would be Tim's turn to have the meeting there, then it would be Ryan's turn or whatever. 8:46 We would all go there, and we'd save anything that was a big debate that week. 8:50 If you're arguing with somebody on a Monday about something, 8:53 we'd be like, "No, stop. Friday. We'll talk about it then." 8:56 That way there was no blocking. 9:00 You weren't spending the day having this argument. 9:02 You were like, "Okay, tabled. Later." 9:04 "I'll move on to the next thing so that I can spend my day productively." 9:06 Anyway, I thought that stuff was so awesome when I started at Wufoo. 9:09 I'm like, "God, you guys really--" 9:12 And I had nothing to do with it other than I worked there and was a part of it. 9:14 I didn't craft that culture. That was Kevin and Ryan and Chris's kind of child. 9:18 I want to talk about CSS-Tricks. 9:24 So css-tricks.com is a super-- >>"Dash" tricks. 9:27 CSS dash tricks dot com is a super popular website. 9:31 First, what is CSS-Tricks for people that are totally unfamiliar? 9:37 It's my land kind of where I write about all things, 9:41 mostly front end but I dabble once in a while in other kind of stuff. 9:45 So if there's like, "Here's a cool new CSS thing that I learned," 9:49 or, "Here's some philosophical thing about the future of CSS," 9:52 or, "Here's a little trick or a snippet," or just anything, 9:56 I'm like, "I want to publish that." 9:59 And it's kind of like my external memory, in a way, 10:01 so that I can reference my own stuff, 10:04 and it's also people have enjoyed reading it over the years, 10:06 the subscribership has grown. 10:09 I know that's what we're supposed to be talking about during this interview 10:11 is our web profile or whatever, and that's part of that. >>We'll get there. 10:13 [laughter] That's what it is. 10:15 So it's a blog mostly, but there are forums there. 10:18 I also do screencasts. There's snippets there. 10:20 I'm working on an almanac that is just like each CSS selector and property 10:23 and just kind of a human language kind of Chris version of how I would describe it. 10:28 There's great docs already like the Mozilla Developer Network docs for stuff like, 10:33 "Oh, what's the syntax for nth-child or whatever?" 10:37 They have a nice article and it's comprehensive but it's a little dry. 10:40 So mine would be like, "Here's a more practical--" 10:43 I want to write an almanac of nth-child but like how you would really use it. 10:46 You know what I mean, just a human language-- >>I know what you mean. 10:50 [makes squealing noise] 10:54 So how did CSS-Tricks first start? What made you want to make that website? 10:56 [chuckles] It's kind of unglorious in a way. 11:00 Aren't they all, though? 11:04 I had a friend who worked for tech support for Adobe. 11:07 So he would answer the phone and somebody would be like, 11:12 "Photoshop won't open," 11:15 and he'd be like, "Did you plug it in?" or just dumb questions. 11:17 So he kind of had a bead on what people asked. 11:19 So we were like, "You know what? We're going to turn this into a blog." 11:23 And we were reading guys like Darren Rowse, who does problogger.net and he's like, 11:25 "I have a camera blog and put AdSense on it, and now I'm rich as heck." 11:29 And we were like, "I want to be rich as heck. Maybe we can have a blog." 11:33 So we made Photoshop Help, Acrobat Help, InDesign Help, 11:38 and we had all these things and we were like, "Slap WordPress on it." 11:42 He got calls and he'd be like, "Oh, that was a dumb question." 11:44 "I'll just blog it and blog the answer to it and build up this archive of content of those things." 11:47 And then I was like, "Let's do one for CSS too." 11:53 Put that on there, slapped the same template on it. 11:56 That was by far the least successful one. Nobody cared about that one. 11:59 But all the rest of them just died immediately because it was like, 12:03 "I can't wait to go home and write a tech support article about a dumb problem." 12:06 I had no passion at all for it. 12:10 And he didn't either. 12:12 So we just were like, "Okay. That was a fun little run. Maybe in another life or whatever." 12:14 The only one that stuck around, even though it was the least successful one, 12:19 was CSS-Tricks because I was enjoying it. 12:22 Building this kind of pseudo mini network of sites, 12:24 I was learning a lot about CSS in the research. 12:27 That was the only one I enjoyed writing for, so that's the only one that stuck around. 12:30 And then I had little hits of growth once in a while. 12:33 I got linked to by Smashing Magazine once way back in like 2007 or something, 12:37 and they were even big then. They're way big now. 12:41 And I got this big spike of traffic, the hockey stick or whatever they call it, and I'm like, 12:45 "Oh, my God. I'm so excited!" 12:49 And I spent the whole night that night redesigning the site to capitalize on the-- 12:51 I made sure there was a big RSS button at the top that people could subscribe to. 12:54 And people started reading it. 12:59 It's not all just like, "And then I was successful forever." 13:01 Then it comes back down and then it's more of a slow growth kind of thing. 13:05 It is a super popular site now. 13:10 How do you deal with that kind of heavy traffic? 13:12 Are you just 1 guy? >>Like as a server? 13:16 In any way you'd like. 13:19 I mean in terms of the technicals of it or growing the community. >>Yeah. 13:21 It's been a long, slow battle. >>How are you just scaling that? 13:26 On a totally technical side, it's not that hard. 13:28 It's just--I don't know. 13:32 You throw WordPress on it, throw it on a decent server, 13:34 put some caching on it--I use a CDN that requires no work, the caching plugin. 13:37 It's like, "Use this CDN." It's like, "Okay." 13:42 I know so little about that stuff, but the site holds up fine. 13:44 It would take a lot to get it to stutter, I guess. 13:47 But then there's the time, which you might have been more getting at, 13:53 how do you manage that side of that because there's the endless flow of emails, 13:56 there's the, "What do we do about content?" 14:00 "What do we do about planning for the future of it?" [inhales sharply] I don't know. 14:02 I just try. I wake up and I manipulate my computer and do the best I can. 14:07 I have no master plan. 14:12 One of the really great things about the site is the community and the forums. >>Yeah. 14:14 What did you do to foster that growth, because that didn't just happen by itself, right? 14:20 What did you do to kind of-- >>One is there's some dumb luck there, a little bit. 14:26 Where do you think of when you think of CSS forums? 14:29 Maybe Stack Overflow or maybe SitePoint has some stuff or something. 14:32 Smashing Magazine dabbled in it, but I just looked the other day 14:36 and I think they folded on their forums. 14:38 It's just I put them up there because I would get an email and it said, 14:40 "Chris, how do you make a triangle in CSS?" 14:45 And there was a time where I was able to answer those emails. That time has gone. 14:47 But I was like, "I'd love to answer you. I want to answer you." 14:52 "Every time I answer you, now we have this connection." 14:55 "You'll probably be a fan of me," like, "I helped you out, man." 14:58 So I wanted to answer every single email that I got. 15:03 And I was like, "Instead of answering with email, 15:06 "I'm going to answer it on indexable content." 15:08 I'm like, "Can we just move this over to the forums?" 15:11 I would gently ask them, and they'd be like, "Sure." 15:13 I'd post it there and then I'd post the answer there, 15:15 so everything that I wrote then became part of building CSS-Tricks 15:17 rather than email, which is fine but doesn't grow your content. >>Sure. 15:20 CSS-Tricks I think stands really well on its own as a great resource, 15:27 a really great community, but has it helped your career in other ways? 15:33 I'm sure, right? 15:39 I doubt I would even ever have gotten-- 15:41 Kevin Hale and them would have never known who I was. 15:43 I did a screencast on CSS-Tricks that was basically like an homage to Wufoo. 15:46 So that I'm sure they noticed, and it got me that job. 15:51 And that's just 1 thing. Imagine all the other doors it's opened--speaking opportunities. 15:57 It basically in a weird, scary kind of way has defined me 16:03 as who I am in the web industry is all the stuff I put there. 16:08 It's changed me immeasurably. >>Sure. 16:14 In our industry I would describe you as a thought leader. 16:17 What are some-- [both chuckle] >>I lead thoughts, basically. 16:21 You do. You have a lot of opinion currency. Is that what they call it? 16:24 Opinion currency? I like that. >>Yeah. 16:29 That's a word I learned today. 16:32 What's some advice that you can give to people that are looking to try and raise their profile 16:35 in the web industry to get speaking opportunities or to get that next client 16:40 or that next job? >>Right, because it's pretty sweet. 16:45 It's kind of worth doing because it opens-- 16:48 Behind all that is money too, which everybody likes. 16:52 But yeah, you have a higher web profile. 16:56 Another cool thing is #Humblebrag. 17:00 I'll probably never have to beg for a job ever again 17:03 or craft a cover letter to send in an email, so that's pretty cool, that feels pretty good. 17:06 That's part of doing CSS-Tricks and stuff like that. 17:12 What should other people do? 17:17 I feel like it's not even that hard. 17:19 Building CSS-Tricks was a hard, long road. 17:21 But just to raise your web profile a little bit or kind of become known a little bit, 17:24 I feel like all you have to do is something like really rad 17:28 and then have that be identifiable to you. 17:30 If you built this website that looks awesome and you say, 17:34 "Hey guys, I built this website," and other people link to it and are like, 17:37 "Oh, you're the guy behind that awesome thing?" immediately skyrocket. 17:39 You could really only have to do it once to really raise your profile a little bit. 17:43 Just have some proof that you are good at what you do and people will find you. 17:48 I think the web industry is clamoring to find more people to follow that do rad stuff. 17:53 So for someone that's maybe a little bit newer to all this web stuff 18:00 and they are looking to raise their profile 18:07 or they're looking to maybe book a speaking slot at a conference, 18:10 how do you go about doing that? 18:15 Do you become friends with the conference? 18:17 So you're a speaker organizer that's trying to find people 18:19 or you want to start speaking? >>You want to start speaking-- >>Okay. Sure. 18:21 as maybe 1 way to raise your profile or a way to make money. 18:24 That's weird because your profile gets raised and then you get asked to speak, 18:29 or you could raise your profile by speaking. 18:32 So many conferences have the-- 18:35 Christopher Schmidt is doing a CSS Dev thing in Hawaii in December 18:37 and he's just opened it up, like, "Do you want to do a talk here? Submit it." 18:41 There's a lot of them. That's how jQuery Conference does it. 18:45 There's a lot of conferences that are just like--isn't that how jQ Conf does it too?-- 18:47 just submit an idea. 18:50 And if it's timely and if it's well presented and you sound like a good, smart human being 18:52 who has good writing skills, you'll probably get in. 18:58 I don't know, I've never done this, but I bet they get a lot of stuff like, 19:01 "I want to talk variables," period. 19:05 You're like, "Hmm, I'm going to try the next guy." 19:08 So write good sentences. 19:11 So submit to these conferences. >>Yeah. 19:13 Do you think there's other ways, like getting to know the conference organizers 19:15 or maybe-- >>Certainly. Follow them on Twitter and compliment their hair. [Pettit laughs] 19:19 I don't know. Yeah, sure. "Have you ever submitted a talk?" 19:25 One of the reasons I'm down here in Orlando at the moment-- 19:28 I don't know if that's in the context of this, but we are in the city of Orlando as we speak-- 19:31 I'm down here for a BarCamp, which are free conferences that you can go to. 19:35 They're in tons of cities, so whatever city you're watching me through 19:40 on the other side of your computer screen probably has one 19:43 or there is one nearby or it's drivable if you want to. 19:46 They're free and they're these unconferences where it's more about talking 19:49 and who you meet and hanging out in the hallway kind of thing 19:53 and then just presenting on anything you want. 19:56 There's no set group of speakers and what they're going to talk about. 19:58 All of that is decided in the morning. 20:00 I just mention it as like going to those is a good idea. 20:02 It may not raise your global web profile, but it will raise your local one, 20:05 which is important too. And who knows what can happen from that? 20:09 And it gets you more used to what the conferences are like 20:12 and what good speakers are and what bad speakers are and all that type of thing. 20:15 You collaborate a lot, and I think you collaborate a lot more than people realize, 20:20 you work on a lot of different stuff, like podcasts or little side projects or whatever it may be. 20:26 Is there a reason behind that other than it's just for fun or--? >>I don't know. 20:32 I had to look back on that at one point, though. 20:37 I'm like, "I wrote this book and I did it with Jeff Starr so I have that." 20:40 Really, all these little projects I do I either seek out or fall into 20:43 working on a small team on that project, and very rarely do I just do it all by myself, 20:49 other than CSS-Tricks for some reason. 20:53 But pretty much everything else I do is on a small team. 20:55 I don't know what it is. I was thinking, "Is it just random?" 20:58 I was trying to self-analyze this earlier. 21:01 I'm like, "Or is it just my personality--that I prefer this thing?" 21:03 because there are some obvious niceties, like having someone to bounce ideas off of 21:06 and sharing the load and all that stuff, but I think there's more to it than that. 21:09 I had this other idea for just a very small project that I work on. 21:12 It's kind of a one-off thing. 21:16 And I'm doing on it and I'm working on it and I was listening to myself 21:18 think about how I want to find somebody else to get in on this thing. 21:24 And I'm like, "Why do I even want that? It seems so random." 21:27 I think it is somehow embedded in me that when I work on a project 21:30 I need to find at least 1 more person to pull in on it. 21:33 I had this idea to have Gold Bond alerts--remember that?-- 21:38 where it's like it will text you if it's a really hot day 21:41 and you should probably be wearing Gold Bond. 21:43 It never got anywhere because I couldn't find-- 21:45 I really wanted somebody else to share the glory. 21:47 I was trying to bug Jim to do it with me, but he wouldn't do it. 21:49 Or he didn't refuse, but he's a busy guy. >>I'll bug him for you. 21:51 Okay. [laughs] I can't do that by myself. I need 1 more person. 21:55 Last question. We've talked about how to raise your profile in the web industry. 21:59 But I think there's probably a lot of people watching 22:03 that would rather hear you talk about CSS maybe, 22:06 so I'm just going to ask you a super vague question. 22:10 What do you think is the future of CSS? 22:12 Or will there ever be a replacement for CSS? 22:15 Or where do you think it's going? >>Let me grab my magical globe. 22:18 All right. >>[makes whooshing sound] 22:21 Yeah, I have no idea. What? [laughs] There's obvious stuff. 22:23 The syntax of CSS is always changing in a little bit and kind of really needs it. 22:27 CSS preprocessors have been kind of popular and on the fringe 22:36 and always kind of this ever-present, growing thing. 22:39 They're big in my life right now because I've switched everything I do to starting to use them. 22:43 These are things like LESS and SASS or whatever. 22:46 CSS for sure--there's no doubt about it--is going to start adopting 22:49 some of those ideas that can happen in there. 22:52 So the ability to do nesting, the ability to do variables and stuff, that's coming. 22:54 The future of CSS is slow, though. 22:58 As we all know, it goes slowly. 23:00 So let's say they finish the spec for nesting, 23:03 now it's this new thing you can do in CSS. Done, right? 23:06 Well, not really, because when can we use that? 23:08 It's so long, like 10 years maybe we'll be able to write that in CSS without any help 23:11 because there's no way that gracefully degrades. 23:19 If a browser sees that that doesn't understand it, it just will show nothing. 23:22 That's not acceptable. 23:25 So the future of CSS, it's trucking along now. 23:27 There's new cool stuff all the time. 23:30 But our ability to actually use them without any help is slow. 23:32 But I think the future is bright. 23:37 People like to complain about CSS. 23:39 They're like, "What, are you dumb? CSS is the worst. It can't do layout." 23:42 I'm like, "I don't know. Have you seen the Internet? It's full of CSS. It's awesome." 23:45 I think CSS is pretty all right. [chuckles] 23:49 Thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. 23:52 I think I definitely learned a lot. 23:54 And thanks for hanging out. >>Yeah, man. Thanks for having me, Nick. 23:57 Appreciate it. >>Treehouse! Is that a T? T! [laughs] 24:00