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Sarah Parmenter visits Treehouse to talk with Nick Pettit about user interface design for mobile platforms, her creative process, the future of design on the web, and more!
Visit Sarah Parmenter's website and say hello on Twitter.
Check out the footer navigation Sarah and Nick discussed at the You Know Who website.
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[MUSIC]
0:00
Well, hey everybody.
I'm Nick Pettit @nickrp on twitter.
0:05
And I'm a web design teacher here at
Treehouse, which of course is the
0:10
best way to learn about web design,
0:14
web development, mobile business, and so
much more.
0:15
You can check us out at teamtreehouse.com.
0:19
Today we have a very special guest here
with us in the studio today.
0:23
This is Sarah Parmenter.
0:27
Sarah, for people that don't
0:28
know who you are, how would you describe
yourself in, in your own words?
0:30
>> I'd say I'm a user interface
designer.
0:34
But for people who aren't really in our
industry
0:37
or if I'm out and about I sometimes just
0:40
I'm a graphic designer, for ease of people
not
0:42
understanding what a user interface
designer is sometimes I say.
0:45
>> I know what you mean, sometimes I
just
0:48
say like, I'm a web designer and don't get
specific.
0:49
>> Yeah, sometimes I say that but then
people go along
0:51
the lines of, oh you must be really geeky
and [INAUDIBLE] and
0:53
then I'm like oh, it's just easier to say
graphic designer.
0:56
But, I kinda do lots of things
0:59
but predominantly I'm a user interface
designer.
1:00
>> Okay, cool.
1:03
Now you got your start in design when you
were pretty young.
1:05
And so how, how did that happen?
1:09
How did you stumble into design?
1:11
>> In web design, I started when I was
little.
1:14
Well, I was quite small I guess.
I was in about 13, 14 when I started in
1:16
web design and that was just because.
Geocities was quite big.
1:21
I don't know if you remember it.
1:25
>> Sure.
Oh yeah, I do.
1:26
>> Yeah.
1:27
Geocities making your own homepage and
stuff like
1:28
that was quite a thing when I was younger.
1:31
And the interface for actually uploading
your own
1:34
pictures and changing texts, it was kind
of clunky.
1:36
And it used to take an age to load.
1:40
It when the internet was like charged per
minute to go on.
1:42
So I,
1:45
I started learning HTML just cuz it was
faster to get my stuff up, basically.
1:46
So I started from there, and taught myself
HTML.
1:52
And when CSS came along, and stuff like
that, I, I kinda just kept bolting it on.
1:55
So I've seen lots of eras of, of the web
come and go.
2:01
But yeah, I was self taught from a young
age, and just was lucky that
2:04
when all of these new trends came in, I
was at a point where I could
2:08
keep bolting them on to my existing skill
set.
2:11
>> So, so, that's what I was gonna ask
you, you.
2:14
It sounds like you're self taught.
Did you attend university at all?
2:17
>> No, I'm, or actually was going along
different lines.
2:20
When I was younger, I was thinking I
wanted to go into acting.
2:24
And I worked for a casting agent for a
while, but made more
2:27
money out of updating her website than I
did out of doing actual casting.
2:30
So, at that point when I was going to,
2:33
college, I'm not sure what the equivalent
is out here,
2:36
it's between like 16 and 18 I was going on
2:38
along the the lines of doing like English
literature, and
2:41
acting, and then just keeping the web
stuff on the side.
2:43
Cuz I didn't really understand, career
wise, what it
2:46
could do until I kind of stumbled into
using it.
2:49
>> Sure.
2:52
>> In a, in a professional environment.
And I was kinda like, hm.
2:53
I wonder if this is a thing, like if she
2:56
needs her website updating then other
people must need websites
2:58
updating and it kinda went from there
really.
3:01
>> That's interesting.
3:03
We actually took pretty similar paths.
I was...
3:05
[CROSSTALK]
>> Oh, okay.
3:06
>> I was acting until I was acting up
until I was about 18
3:07
years old and then I got more interested
in like being behind the camera...
3:09
>> Yeah.
3:13
>> And that sort of led to web stuff.
That's fascinating.
3:13
I didn't know that.
so.
3:16
So do you exclusively design stuff for
mobile cuz
3:18
that, that is kind of what you're known
for.
3:22
>> Yeah.
3:24
>> Or, or do you design for
3:24
all sorts of different platforms.
3:26
>> I design for all different
platforms.
3:27
I've gone back to doing print work
recently for different things.
3:30
But mobile design.
3:34
Is what I've been doing for some bigger
companies
3:35
for the last actually, the last three
years now.
3:37
I've been designing some apps, kind of
hush
3:40
hush under their kind of umbrella of
teams.
3:42
I've been doing stuff for them, so that's
all been mobile design.
3:45
And I think I was just lucky in that when
the
3:49
iPhone came out in 2006, I was really, I
was a really early adopter
3:52
of the iPhone, luckily, and I got really
interested in designing for the platform.
3:57
So I was blogging about a lot of the stuff
that other people, when it came
4:01
to them picking up and saying, well
actually,
4:03
I think I want to design for this
platform.
4:05
I'd already documented a lot of stuff, so
that's, I became known for
4:07
that early on just purely because I was
learning and documenting it early on.
4:11
>> What, what attracted you to
4:16
that platform?
Why mobile, why not?
4:17
>> Honestly, the fixed canvas type
stuff.
4:19
I really like working with a fixed
canvass,
4:22
so, the iPhone, it just seemed perfect
that
4:24
you have this perfect kind of rectangle to
4:27
work within and, and I like constraints
like that.
4:30
Whereas the web, even when it was, I
dunno, 960 pixels and fairly
4:33
fixed, I still felt like that was kind of
big canvas to work with.
4:37
I really like the restriction.
4:40
>> Sure.
4:41
>> Working and, and it was, okay the
operating
4:42
system's different now but back then it
was really new.
4:45
And I remember the first time, probably
everyone remembers the
4:48
first time they saw an iPhone and saw the
operating system.
4:50
It was just like, magic.
4:53
And really like, the colors were really
vibrant.
4:55
And I was just thinking yeah, I'd really
love
4:57
to design for this, this is my sort of
thing.
4:59
>> Now did you start out designing web
apps for that
5:01
or did you get into it later when the app
store came
5:04
along or?
5:07
>> I went straight into designing an,
an app,
5:08
an app that was going on the app store.
5:12
Someone took a chance on me because I
designed
5:13
the mock up and they took a chance on
5:15
me designing their mock up because I'd
done their
5:17
website, which was like a strange thing
that happened.
5:19
But he he sorta said, I've, I've got this,
this app that I want to put on this new
5:22
thing called the, the App Store for the
iPhone, and would you like to have a go
5:27
at designing it?
5:32
And I, I was very honest, and I just said,
I've not designed for this before.
5:33
I want to design for it.
5:37
If you're happy with me charging for a
couple of weeks, but giving me
5:39
six weeks to do it in, therefore you're
not paying for my learning curve.
5:44
>> Right.
>> But, you still get an app out of it.
5:47
>> Sure.
5:51
>> yeah, it was really lucky that we
got
5:52
a, an excellent, really, really nice email
back from Apple,
5:54
saying it was really well designed, but
please
5:57
don't use this email as any form of
endorsement,
6:00
>> [LAUGH]
6:02
>> we can't been seen to endorse any
single
6:03
designer so I found myself right in the
early
6:05
inception of iPhone design holding this
email that said
6:07
Apple liked it but couldn't do anything
with it.
6:10
>> Right.
6:13
>> But it gave me enough confidence to,
to carry
6:13
on with it and know that I was doing
something right.
6:16
So yeah it was good.
>> Wow that's amazing.
6:18
So what's your process like?
Do you,
6:20
you know, obviously you must talk to the
client.
6:23
And then, what happens after that?
6:25
Do you wireframe in pencil?
6:27
Or in some sort of app?
>> Yeah.
6:29
>> Do you jump into Illustrator?
6:31
Do you use Interface Builder at all?
>> I have used Interface Builder.
6:33
And, to be honest.
6:37
I, because I've been working with larger
teams that
6:38
process changes slightly depending on the
team around you.
6:40
So when I've been working for larger
teams, I
6:43
found that it's helpful to do stuff on
paper.
6:45
Because you're normally in an environment
where you need to express ideas maybe
6:48
differently to the way that they've set it
or thought that the output goes.
6:52
And normally I get pulled in to kind of
rip apps apart and go.
6:55
Is this really the best way that, that
we're doing this as an app.
6:58
So the process changes on, depending on
who it is.
7:02
If it's a small team of people then I tend
7:06
to just go straight into sort of fairly, I
guess,
7:09
high-fidelity wireframes in some form of
like, Photoshop, Illustrator.
7:12
I've actually mostly used Fireworks.
7:16
The only thing I ever used Fireworks for
was that.
7:18
If it's, if it's something for just maybe
a
7:21
smaller type app or something, that even
maybe a
7:25
web app, I tend to just, go crazy on
7:28
my sketchbook and scan them and send them
to people.
7:30
>> You find that people.
7:33
Are much happier to comment on sketches
7:34
than they when they feel like the, the
level of polish is higher.
7:37
>> Is, is finished.
7:41
Yeah.
7:41
>> Cuz they feel, even if it is still
in a wire-frame stage.
7:41
So it depends sometimes I always start
things on paper even if it's just for my
7:44
benefit but these beautiful sketches that
you see
7:48
sometimes people put in Dribble and things
like that.
7:51
Mine don't look anything like that.
>> [LAUGH]
7:53
>> It's the more crazy like rubbed out
Everywhere, but yeah.
7:55
>> I, I think some people are feeling
7:58
very encouraged [LAUGH] to hear that right
now.
8:00
>> Yeah, if people
8:01
saw my sketchbook, it's like a complete
mess.
8:02
But I think that's what it's there for, a
sketchbook isn't meant
8:05
to be a work of art, it's meant to be a
thinking process.
8:07
And that's why I'm always a bit dubious
when
8:11
people put out these like perfect sketches
of things.
8:12
I'm like, did you just sit and draw that
for twenty minutes
8:15
to then post on Dribble, cuz that's not
really how I use it.
8:17
But to each his own.
8:21
>> But, okay so my next question is
what are some of the biggest challenges
8:22
for designing for smaller screens because
a lot of people,
8:28
I find seem to be more challenged by a
smaller screen.
8:31
You're saying that you think it's actually
easier.
8:35
>> Yeah easier to design for but not
maybe in terms of
8:37
content is the main problem.
8:44
I find that the main problem is that
people, don't necessarily understand
8:46
the medium as well so they have a website
that has a
8:50
large volume of content on it, and then
you need to have
8:52
this conversation where it's like okay,
8:55
especially if it's mobile, like responsive
stuff.
8:57
You need to have a conversation of
9:00
what's the most important thing, because
otherwise you're
9:02
gonna have reams and reams and a huge
amount of swipes to get to the information
9:04
that you feel is the core.
9:09
That seems to be the recurring theme,
9:11
is just content transition between screen
sizes, which
9:14
is something that I think we're all gonna
have to get really, really good at.
9:18
But that is always the main problem.
Or advertising.
9:22
Companies that I've worked for, they want
to
9:25
insert advertising into stuff and it
breaks the flow.
9:27
>> Yeah.
9:30
>> Of what you're doing.
9:30
I don't think anyone has completely
9:31
cracked how to get advertising into
something
9:32
that seems seamless and actually nice.
Some part of the experience.
9:35
It always seems like it kind of breaks,
and
9:38
then comes back together, for something
that you're viewing.
9:41
So, yeah I think advertising and, content
transition are the hardest things.
9:44
I think the graphical thing is less so
9:48
now, especially since we've got away from
skeuomorphic design.
9:50
Everything's a lot, kind of, can be done
in Interface
9:54
Builder a lot easier, there's less
exporting of graphics, so.
9:56
I think it just
9:59
comes down to advertising and content
becomes the hardest things to port across.
10:00
>> Now, when you design apps in Illus
in Interface Builder obviously
10:05
you're restricted to Apple's Human
Interface guidelines for the most part.
10:10
>> Mm-hm.
10:15
>> Unless you're importing your own
assets.
10:15
Do you, do you usually design very
customized looking apps?
10:18
Or do you actually prefer to go with
Apple's
10:22
style guidelines?
10:25
>> I prefer a mix of both, if I'm being
honest.
10:27
I'm not completely sold on some of the
elements of, of
10:30
iOS 7, I'm not convinced that they're
right for us right now.
10:33
I don't like the line icons.
I, I.
10:36
>> I don't think you're alone.
>> No.
10:38
[LAUGH] There's some, I mean, it's grown
on me.
10:39
It's definitely grown on me.
10:42
But there's certain things that I think
it's good to question the conventions
10:43
that Apple put out because I think
everyone's so quick to kind of go,
10:46
Apple's throwing this new thing at us.
10:50
Which means the web also has to follow
this theme.
10:52
And you suddenly see it pop up everywhere,
10:55
without questioning whether it's actually
making good sense.
10:57
I think some of the things that I
personally would
11:01
change about the new operating system is
the, the buttons.
11:03
The buttons don't look like buttons
anymore.
11:07
>> They look more like links.
11:09
>> They look more like.
>> Without underlines.
11:10
>> Yeah, they do.
11:11
>> You know.
>> They're more like links.
11:13
And, and you have to read a lot more,
11:14
be aware of what the text Says rather than
knowing that it's a button.
11:15
I, I personally, would love to see buttons
come back even if they are flat.
11:19
That's just me.
And the line icons that are everywhere.
11:23
They, they do take longer to register what
it is.
11:28
If you follow someones eye pattern, it's
like follow the whole thing
11:31
and then say that's what it is, rather
than the solid ones.
11:34
Line icons are really not loving at the
way but.
11:37
Yeah.
>> Too.
11:41
>> I have to agree.
11:41
And you see them everywhere too.
>> Yeah.
11:42
>> I don't understand it.
11:43
>> They certainly popped up everywhere.
11:44
But it's, it's not my favorite thing right
now, and I think it's good to sometimes
11:46
question whether those things are done to
be
11:50
different or whether it's actually good
user experience.
11:54
And, and so sometimes my apps sit
in-between the two.
11:57
I follow conventions because we need to
get
12:01
through the app approval process and stuff
like that.
12:03
>> Sure.
12:05
>> But then
12:06
try and bend the rules in that if you've
got a
12:06
good, good bit of information as to why
you shouldn't use stuff.
12:09
Because it just doesn't make good UX
sense, then I think it's good to bend
12:12
the rules of the design, even if it
12:15
comes out of the Apple Human Interface
Guidelines.
12:17
>> So, so you're saying you do that to
get it approved initially, are you saying?
12:20
>> No, no.
12:23
I source it between the, so, you can't,
you can't go completely crazy
12:24
on apps sometimes, because they'll come
back and say, it's so outside of what
12:28
every other app does or feels like, that
they don't want it to do that.
12:32
>> Right.
12:36
>> But, I mean with icons and things
like that, that's easy
12:37
to swap out, and easy to have a
conversation with a client about.
12:39
Actually it's the better user experience.
12:43
So, they, they wait for out for that, but
some and
12:45
following most conventions helps, except
with things like that, I think.
12:48
>> Sure, that's interesting.
12:52
Okay so my next question is,
12:54
is there, do you think there's any kinda
12:57
difference between designing native apps
and web apps?
12:59
Or, you know, cuz you were saying earlier
that, you
13:04
know, the web shouldn't always follow the
conventions of native applications.
13:07
I mean, what are the differences there,
for you?
13:11
>> It's a difficult one.
13:14
I think it depends on whether you're
actually trying to mimic the
13:15
experience of an app using the web or
whether you're actually accessing
13:18
a website.
13:23
With the intention of it being an
13:24
informational website, it depends on the
two contexts.
13:25
I've had apps that I've thought or have
been
13:29
told apps that would be downloaded through
the app
13:31
store, and when it's actually come to it,
it's
13:34
basically been a, a, wrapped website with
tons of JavaScript.
13:37
>> Right.
13:41
>> So that becomes a problem when
13:41
people try and scroll and they're
expecting it
13:42
to smooth scroll like it does within an
app and then it freezes and breaks
13:45
and, all sorts of stuff, see.
13:48
yeah, the two, the two, I think
13:51
once upon a time were designed extremely
differently.
13:54
Especially in the previous operating
system.
13:56
But now, because everything again, I hate
using the word flat.
13:59
I hate that, whole term.
14:02
>> That's what everybody says.
[LAUGH]
14:03
>> [LAUGH] Because we've gone through
this.
14:05
Flat thing it actually makes it easier to
kind of make this, standardized look about
14:07
everything, even if it is a web app, or
website or anything it, it's, all looking
14:11
a little similar at the moment.
>> Right.
14:16
Okay Now do you code at all?
14:19
>> I do.
Not for, for iOS.
14:22
>> Okay.
14:26
>> I tried it and it completely fried
my brain.
14:26
And I wasn't a very nice person for about
three weeks.
14:28
>> [LAUGH] Yeah, memory management is a
little tough.
14:30
>> Yeah.
14:32
Yeah I find objectives in coco very
14:32
mathematical and I'm not mathematically
brained at all.
14:35
I'm creative so like every, everything is
in colors and shapes to me.
14:37
I do HTML and CSS, some JavaScript, some
PHP.
14:42
I've done Ruby in the past, as well.
14:46
But really, I love being able to make
stuff with it.
14:48
I love that freedom that it gives you
14:52
but I'd rather hand something over, almost
like
14:54
really good comp of some sort that a
14:57
developer can take and actually like, plug
it in.
14:59
For me, that's what I'd prefer.
15:02
But I have knowledge of CoCo and
15:04
objectives in, and how it works, and
object-orientated
15:06
programming and everything like that, but
it just, it's
15:08
one of those things that I just personally
don't touch.
15:11
>> I, I tried it a long time ago,
15:14
and I agree, it seemed very difficult at
the time.
15:17
I picked it back up just recently, and I'm
finding it not as hard.
15:22
>> Okay, that's interesting.
15:27
>> Yeah, there's hope.
>> Okay.
15:28
>> But yeah, I'm, I'm the same way, you
know, I'm very very
15:30
visually oriented, I've, I've done some
15:34
programming actually quite a bit of
programming.
15:36
But Objective C isn't that bad.
15:39
You, you, you can learn it.
[LAUGH]
15:41
>> Okay, good sign.
>> so.
15:43
My last question, and then we have some
questions from our viewers
15:46
is, what's kind of the, the next frontier
in design for you?
15:49
I mean, you're saying that you don't like
flat design, and I
15:55
think a lot of people would agree with
you.
15:59
Or at least you hate the term.
16:00
>> Yeah.
16:02
>> what, what do you think is kinda the
next
16:03
I guess big challenge for web designers,
I'm pretty sure.
16:05
>> I think it, I think it comes back to
content again.
16:10
I think we're gonna have to be really
smart about putting out multiple forms of
16:12
content because the devices that are gonna
16:17
access different sorts of content, could
be anything.
16:20
I think we truly have to start thinking.
16:24
Although we probably all once laughed at
the
16:26
fact that our refrigerator might have
something in it.
16:28
>> Right.
16:30
>> That could be, I think we actually
have to start thinking in terms of what
16:31
screens are gonna exist that don't exist
now,
16:34
that are gonna need certain forms of
content.
16:36
That aren't gonna make us have to go back
to the
16:39
drawing board and rewrite tons of content
at a later date.
16:40
I think it was Karen McGrane who's like,
amazing content person, was saying that,
16:44
the best example of that is like tv
listings.
16:49
So when you have a tv listing, some needs,
some need a long form, others need short
16:53
form because they're going if you think of
the
16:57
way you access it on your television it's
restricted.
16:59
>> Hm.
Yes.
17:01
>> If you're, if you're accessing it on
17:02
the web, you might have longer versions
available.
17:03
So I think, I think the key is gonna
17:06
be in content management systems that
don't exist right now.
17:08
They're gonna need to have a form of
sending
17:12
different forms of content.
17:15
And that's not, I don't mean restricted in
17:16
terms of character where it will just
break.
17:18
>> Right.
17:20
>> Actual different forms of content
where the content
17:21
reformats with the most important thing at
the top.
17:23
Or the most interesting thing at the top,
or anything like that
17:26
where it actually restructures itself,
rather
17:28
than just being truncated through
characters.
17:31
>> Almost like using some sort of
artificial intelligence.
17:33
Is that what you're discussing, or?
17:36
>> Yeah, some, some.
I don't know.
17:38
I don't know.
I don't have the answer.
17:40
I think we would all be very very rich if
we did.
17:41
[LAUGH] But I think that's going to be the
biggest challenge.
17:43
For us.
17:46
It won't necessarily come in, in form of
design
17:47
cuz I think we're stripping back on that
now.
17:49
And when, we're realizing that, asset
creation maybe isn't the way forward.
17:51
>> Do you, do you think that has
anything to do with, accessibility?
17:57
>> Yeah, huge part.
>> Because I you know you're,
18:01
you're talking about smart appliances,
and.
18:05
Sometimes it's hard to teach beginners
the, the
18:08
good reasons behind forming, you know,
well-structured HTML.
18:13
Why would you want to do that?
18:16
I mean, the browser renders it just fine
if you, you don't.
18:17
>> Yeah.
18:20
>> Why do you have to use all these new
tags, right.
18:20
And the example I always use is, yeah,
18:22
these, these far flung household
appliances that you
18:24
know, can pull information down from the
internet.
18:30
>> Mm-hm.
18:33
>> I've always imagined like, this
blender that
18:33
could like, talk to you like Siri, you
know.
18:36
And tell you, you know, all the different
kinds of smoothies you can make.
18:38
And, and it needs to pull down
18:42
that information in some sort of
structured format.
18:43
>> Yeah.
18:45
So that But that's interesting, I, I
totally agree with
18:45
you, okay so we got a bunch of questions
already.
18:48
>> Okay.
>> This is good.
18:54
The first question says, what do you think
about Fireworks?
18:56
Sarah mentioned having use it, used it
before.
18:59
Do you still use it for anything?
19:02
>> No, I've actually just switched to
using something
19:04
called Sketch, which is an app by Bohemian
Coding.
19:07
It's super cheap, really, considering what
a great app it is.
19:11
I think it's about 50 bucks.
19:14
And it does everything that, that
Fireworks and Photoshop and
19:16
Illustrator would do, so its kind of a
three in one program.
19:21
I used to be a Photoshop monkey for years.
19:24
Years like ten years of Photoshop and I
recently switched to Sketch about
19:27
a month, maybe six weeks ago and I haven't
really touched Photoshop since.
19:32
>> Wow.
19:36
>> Except for editing photos, which is
what
19:36
is was meant for in the first place
[LAUGH]
19:37
>> [LAUGH] Right, right.
19:39
[LAUGH] Well that's very cool.
What's your opinion of skeuomorphism?
19:39
>> I used to love it.
19:46
I used to, I used to really enjoy
designing for it.
19:48
>> I think everyone did.
19:51
>> But once you've done one too many
leather stitches
19:52
too far and you start to lose the will to
live.
19:54
I, I don't think it's a bad thing.
19:57
I think it's a, an interesting thing to
look at the concepts of
19:59
mimicking, user interface design that
mimics stuff
20:03
that you would use in real life.
20:06
I think some apps took it too far.
Find Friends was like,
20:07
the most awful.
[LAUGH]
20:11
>> That's the one I always pick out
20:13
too, because that doesn't exist in real
life.
20:15
>> No.
20:18
>> Like, is that leather stitching and
this map?
20:18
Even supposed to be, you know?
20:21
>> Yeah, that was an interesting one
and I can't remember what
20:22
app it was that had wooden buttons in it,
which I always loved.
20:24
>> Oh yeah, I know what you're talking
about.
20:28
>> I kind of love the idea of wooden
buttons but, some things
20:30
take it too far but I think it, it's maybe
about scaling back and
20:33
just looking at what, what can mimic stuff
in real life that people would
20:36
then find easier from a UX perspective
20:40
rather than actually physically making it
look similar.
20:42
>> Right.
20:45
>> As similar as having leather bound
stuff and things.
20:45
>> So, so this is, an interesting one.
20:49
I'm actually personally, interested in
this, as well.
20:51
Does Sarah have any thoughts that's you
about designing for television screens?
20:54
>> Oh,
21:00
yes.
21:02
I actually pitched for a project for this
that they never, they never did.
21:02
I pitched for a project for this company
who
21:07
take Apple TVs, hack them, sell them back
to hotel
21:10
chains, and then rebrand the kind of, when
you
21:13
walk into a hotel and you see the welcome
message.
21:16
>> Right.
>> And stuff like that.
21:18
It was really interesting.
What you have to do to do that.
21:19
The, the assets that you need to create.
Completely alien DPI
21:22
versions of things that I've never dealt
with.
21:27
>> Oh my gosh.
21:29
>> It was yeah, it's really
interesting.
21:29
I was kind of sad that that never came
off, cuz I used
21:32
a, a single template, and just recolored
it for each hotel in the end.
21:34
But, that was a really interesting one
because you had static
21:38
elements and then you had to design things
that would change.
21:41
So, weather sections it would change so it
was almost like bringing together
21:43
all the best parts of designing for iOS,
but on one giant screen.
21:48
>> Right.
21:51
>> So it was like, having a utility app
for weather in one section and
21:52
then having a, a rolling news feed on the
other and then having other sections.
21:55
It was really, really interesting but, but
really steep learning curve.
21:59
>> Well, maybe if those Apple
television rumors ever
22:03
come true we'll all be designing for TVs
again.
22:05
>> Let's hope so.
22:08
>> We'll see.
So Edward says, love your glasses Sarah.
22:09
>> Well thanks, Edward.
>> Other than Treehouse,
22:14
of course, how can a beginner get more
involved in the industry?
22:17
>> Conferences.
22:23
I know that's probably a really cliche
answer but I would say.
22:25
>> That's what I always say.
22:28
>> Getting involved in the conferences
22:29
and understanding that our industry is
wonderful
22:31
in the sense of most of our networking,
networking is not really networking.
22:34
But it happens in bars after conferences,
or
22:39
it happens during coffee breaks at
conferences.
22:42
Even if you're not a particularly
confident
22:46
person I think learning how to just hold
22:48
yourself in a conference environment where
you feel you can go up and talk to people.
22:50
Maybe people who you see online, see
teaching Treehouse stuff.
22:54
Having the confidence, in a non-creepy
way, to walk up and just say,
22:57
hey, you know, I really love this that
you've put out or I'm really looking
23:03
to get into something.
23:08
One thing I have learnt is people really
love
23:10
people who are clearly trying their
hardest to do something.
23:13
So if you are a beginner and you're trying
with all your might
23:17
to get into the industry or you're stuck
on something, everyone kind of
23:20
takes you under their wing and really just
looks after you and says,
23:24
look, have you've seen this resource, or
have you seen this website or.
23:27
You've got this book.
23:31
But then, it's also a weird balance of
learning when, to leave as well.
23:33
Otherwise, you end up that creepy guy
who's,stood
23:38
next to everyone not knowing what to do.
23:40
>> Right, right.
23:42
Conferences, yeah.
23:44
Conferences are a wonderful place to, to
network.
23:45
>> Well, I think, I think everybody
wants to talk.
23:48
>> Yeah.
23:50
>> And that's the thing that nobody
thinks
23:51
about is, you know, everybody wants to
talk.
23:52
So llike, I find it really easy to go up
to people.
23:53
I didn't used to,
23:57
but yeah if you just go up and talk to
people, everybody's so nice.
23:58
>> Yeah, yeah definitely.
24:02
>> Like, nobody's going to bite your
head off.
24:04
Alright so, Steve asks.
24:06
What sizes or break points do you design
for when starting a new mobile design?
24:09
>> Okay so that's responsive design
rather than actual fixed native stuff.
24:17
>> Yes.
>> In terms of break
24:22
points, I don't really believe they exist
sometimes.
24:24
So, they do, the standard ones exist.
24:28
>> Sure.
24:30
>> But then anything outside of that, I
think
24:30
a break point is exactly what it says it
is.
24:32
A break point should be when the design
breaks and not a set size.
24:35
So, as long as you've designed in
percentages, and
24:39
you can kind of do that thing that we will
24:41
do of pulling in the browser in and out,
your
24:43
content will reformat to a certain point,
if you've done
24:46
that properly.
24:49
It then becomes an, an issue of whether
24:49
you're gonna take something full screen,
whether you're going
24:52
to remove it, whether you're gonna break
that into
24:53
parts that are smaller, or that becomes
the issue.
24:55
>> Right.
24:58
>> And normally that will happen at a
breakpoint that's outside the normal ones.
24:59
Which are like the iPhone, iPad, other
tablets, et cetera, et cetera.
25:04
So, my breakpoints are always a bit
strange cuz they're
25:08
just where the design breaks and not
actually a particular
25:11
set size.
25:14
>> Gosh, that's a really great way to
think of it.
25:15
I don't think I've ever heard that before.
25:17
Maybe I have.
25:19
But, just thinking of it in terms of yeah,
where the design breaks.
25:19
>> Yeah.
To me it was just one of those things.
25:23
I, I found responsive design quite a hard
25:26
learning curve again because it was quite
mathematical.
25:28
>> Yeah.
25:31
>> So, and I'd been doing iOS design
for the, the entire time
25:31
that everyone was going, responsive
design,
25:35
I was kind of that charlatan sitting
25:37
in my office [LAUGH] going, please, no one
ask me about
25:39
it cuz I haven't even read the book or
anything right now.
25:42
>> Right.
25:44
>> And then when I did dig into it, It
just
25:44
made sense that break points shouldn't be,
shouldn't be device points.
25:47
Otherwise, you're just designing for
design specific.
25:51
>> Right.
25:54
You're defeating the purpose.
25:54
>> Break points and you're defeating
the purpose of it.
25:55
So then, it just becomes well, break
points should be where the design breaks.
25:56
>> Very cool.
So Romain asks:
26:01
Do you have any advice for freelancers?
26:04
>> Get out of bed.
Take your pajamas off.
26:09
Have a good shower.
26:12
[LAUGH] No, I'm being serious.
That's the one thing
26:13
>> No.
26:15
>> I think is.
>> I know, I know you're being serious.
26:15
That's why I'm laughing.
26:17
>> As freelancers, I think you get so
comfortable with this
26:18
whole notion of I can just work at home in
my pajamas.
26:21
I don't have to have a shower until 3:00
in the
26:25
afternoon, but I think that mindset is
really dangerous to get into.
26:27
So, actually just getting up and having a
normal routine like a normal
26:30
working person.
26:35
Or come out, I sometimes, if I'm feeling
really like, ugh.
26:36
It's Monday morning or yeah.
26:39
I just take a walk round the, round the
block and come back into my house
26:42
again and feel like oh, I've taken my walk
to work and now I'm at work.
26:45
>> Right.
26:49
>> It's, I think it's more of a mindset
thing.
26:49
If you're the sort of person who's gonna
26:51
get distracted by the latest Grand Theft
Auto sitting
26:53
in the corner and wanting to play with
that then you just have to change the way
26:55
that you have a mindset about work.
27:00
You just have to be aware that you're the
sort of person who will naturally want to
27:02
gravitate off work and try and bring it
back, every so often that, is a hard one.
27:05
Freelancing is, is tough, it's really
tough.
27:10
>> I've found that having a separate
physical space helps me work at home.
27:13
>> Yeah.
27:17
>> You know if, if he can do that, like
that's really one of the greatest things
27:17
you can do for yourself, is just having a
separate room, go in there, you work, and
27:21
when you come out, work's over.
>> Yeah.
27:25
>> You know, I think.
27:27
>> Also, I think with working from
home,
27:28
you have to be more aware of when you
27:31
do that thing where you're sitting in
front
27:33
of your computer and, actually, you're not
working anymore.
27:35
You've, you've gravitated towards Twitter
or Facebook.
27:37
And you think because you've sat at your
desk, you're working.
27:40
And it took me a while to, to understand
when I
27:44
was actually just, what I thought was like
even passively working.
27:46
It's not passively working.
>> You're just,
27:49
you're just doing social media marketing.
>> You just, yeah.
27:50
>> Yeah, totally.
27:52
>> You find yourself sat there and
27:52
you're like, actually I'm not working at
all.
27:53
I should have a break and then come back.
27:56
It's understanding those kind of nuances
of
27:58
design, of, of working from home, I think.
28:00
>> Absolutely.
28:04
So, Andy asks.
28:05
What was your thought process behind the
28:07
footer navigation on the You Know Who
website?
28:10
Was it purely for aesthetics?
28:12
>> Hm, no.
28:15
I'll honestly answer, I quite liked it
because it was different.
28:17
I wanted to think more mobile first
concept and, and so it
28:21
was navigation that changes and reformats
for iPhone beautifully and any other.
28:25
Mm-hm.
28:30
>> Any other phone or tablet.
28:31
So, it was me actually trying to
experiment with the
28:33
whole notion of mobile first and then
coming up to desktop.
28:36
And wondering whether people would,
28:39
would see or understand that the
navigation was flipped.
28:41
It's just one of those things.
28:46
Was just trying to be different.
28:47
>> It seems to work.
[CROSSTALK]
28:49
>> So.
28:50
>> I looked at it and I think it looks
pretty nice.
28:50
>> Oh, thank you.
[CROSSTALK]
28:52
>> But.
>> So, that's all changing anyway.
28:53
[LAUGH] So, it's irrelevant.
But oh, thank you.
28:54
Yeah, nice.
It was just me trying to be different.
28:57
So, I think we only have a couple more
questions here.
29:00
Oll, Ollie asks, You've had success
29:03
outside the web with Blush Bar.
29:07
Is there anything within the industry you
want to challenge as a personal project?
29:10
I guess you should probably explain what
Blush Bar is?
29:16
>> Okay, Blush Bar is my personal
project.
29:18
It's actually a blow dry bar, which seems
29:21
so random, but I have my reasons behind
it.
29:24
Repeat the last section of the question.
29:29
Sorry, so what?
>> Ollie says,
29:30
is there anything within the industry you
want to challenge as a personal
29:32
project?
>> Oh I guess on a, broader level
29:36
I really wanna crack Ruby on Rails just
because I really like the idea of,
29:42
of being able to fully design out and
develop anything.
29:48
And I would really like to do the same
with Objective C and Coco, to be honest.
29:53
>> Oh, Treehouse is a wonderful place
to learn all of those things.
29:57
>> Yeah, it is.
30:00
>> [LAUGH]
30:01
>> True.
30:01
It's true, I've been working my
30:01
way through, actually on the [INAUDIBLE]
course.
30:02
yeah, in terms of, of bigger industry
stuff, I don't know, I have something in
30:07
the pipeline at the moment, but I'm
keeping shh on it at the moment, but.
30:11
Yeah, there's, there's always.
>> Understandable.
30:15
>> But there's always, that's the great
thing about our industry though, right?
30:17
There's always a problem that anyone can
solve.
30:19
Not just anyone
30:21
who's like seen as the head of their game
in whatever they do.
30:22
There are problems are in our industry
that, that
30:26
anyone can solve, whether you're a
freelancer, whether you're
30:29
just starting out, there's ways of
collaborating with people
30:31
that you meet at conferences who do have
the skills.
30:33
That's what I like about our industry is
30:36
newbies can, can solve something that
people who've
30:38
been in the industry for years have been
30:41
struggling because they've got fresh
approach on it.
30:42
So I think anything is up for the grabs.
30:45
>> Very true.
Okay.
30:48
Two more questions here.
30:49
>> Okay.
30:50
>> Going back to freelancing, is it
honestly possible for most freelancers
30:51
to survive, so many jobs don't end up
paying a living wage?
30:56
That's interesting.
31:01
>> So, this one is a really hard one.
31:03
I think actually, last week when I was
patterns, we were talking about this.
31:06
We were saying that it's a really hard
31:12
thing for everyone who's been in the
industry
31:13
a while to then think back to how it was
when you didn't have any money.
31:15
Every person who's now seen as being
someone who's good at
31:20
what they do has done that and has done
those struggles.
31:23
But it's very hard
31:28
when you hear that whole follow your
dream, everything will turn out okay.
31:28
It's hard to then think back to know
there's,
31:33
you have to put in a lot of hard work.
31:36
And I think maybe the only way for some
31:39
people to start off on the freelancing
path is
31:41
to start in a company first where you feel
31:43
that you have that cushion of the wage
coming in.
31:45
And then do freelancing on the side if you
can.
31:48
We're also talking about how wages
31:51
and, you know, if you are in a company
where you've been there a
31:54
while and they can't raise your salary
because of the economic climate we're in.
31:57
Try and barter to get days at home that
you can work, therefore you can
32:01
work on side projects and you can
32:06
work on building up freelance portfolios
and things.
32:08
I think it's really hard for people to
just go, now I'm gonna be a
32:11
freelancer, nowadays because there's a lot
of people who want to do it as well.
32:14
So I think it's a, it's a
32:18
really hard thing at the moment and it's
32:19
a hard thing to survive amongst everyone
and be
32:23
seen and heard amongst everyone as well,
but
32:25
I think there is enough work to go around.
32:27
So it's just putting yourself out there
32:30
marketing yourself learning a bit about
personal
32:32
branding and how you can, how you're seen
by other people is really important.
32:35
>> Absolutely so last question here is,
what is the best or
32:39
your favorite project that you've
designed?
32:45
>> Oh.
32:49
Interesting.
32:50
I'm gonna go with two cuz they are very
different.
32:52
one, I was working on an internal
32:57
app for News International which was
really interesting.
32:59
I haven't, I can't show any screenshots of
it cuz it was an internal app.
33:03
But it was, it was really interesting
because
33:06
it had to solve many problems about
content.
33:08
And show who was maybe the best journalist
for that week.
33:11
Who was really engaging on Twitter.
33:15
It pulled in lots of different social
feeds.
33:17
So it meant designing tons of dashboards,
which I've always wanted to design.
33:19
I think anyone who's a designer's always
wanted to just get hold of a dashboard.
33:23
And it meant designing about 18 different
dashboards.
33:27
That all had to have a similar look and
feel that
33:30
did very, very different things, so that
was like a dream project
33:34
for me that I worked on for a year.
I was really, really lucky to do that.
33:36
Second one would probably be my side
project back at home, because
33:41
the blow dry bar, which is really random,
but what it meant
33:44
I could do is actually take everything
that I'd learnt of, over
33:47
the ten years of being in the industry,
and go back to.
33:51
If I didn't have any clients at all
telling me
33:55
what to do, how would I design something
like this.
33:57
So it took me back to doing print
34:00
work, branding work, websites, really
basic website stuff.
34:02
But all without that kind of oppressive
client coming down
34:06
on your shoulders saying no, no can we
move that.
34:10
Ten pixels to the left yeah.
34:12
So that was great because it gave me
complete creative freedom to go
34:15
back and go oh, I wonder if I could still
do print work?
34:18
Or wonder if I could still brand
something?
34:21
So, that was my, the favorite of this
year.
34:23
>> Very cool stuff.
34:27
Well that's all the time we have for for
today.
34:29
You are who on Twitter?
>> Yeah, sazzy on Twitter.
34:33
>> So if we didn't get your question,
go ahead and tweet to Sarah.
34:38
>> Yeah.
34:43
>> Sure she'd be happy to answer.
34:43
You're you're here at Treehouse because
you're actually shooting a
34:45
course, can you tell us a little bit about
that?
34:50
>> So, we, I just got finished shooting
in here, today.
34:52
So I'm shooting a course for iOS designs,
it's mobile app design.
34:56
It's a whole course about, we're actually
designing a diary app.
35:01
So it takes you right from the start of
planning and doing the
35:05
wireframes and writing certain
documentation that
35:08
will help with developers, right through
to.
35:11
Designing and exporting your artwork, so
it's like a full course on
35:13
mobile app design.
>> Very cool stuff.
35:18
Well, I'm sure we'll release that as soon
as we possibly can.
35:20
It'll be coming very soon.
35:24
If you'd like to learn more about us and
learn web design, web development mobile
35:27
business and so much more.
You can check us out at teamtreehouse.com.
35:32
Thanks so much for watching and we'll see
you real soon.
35:37
[MUSIC]
35:40
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