Start a free Courses trial
to watch this video
Sarah Parmenter visits Treehouse to talk with Nick Pettit about user interface design for mobile platforms, her creative process, the future of design on the web, and more!
Visit Sarah Parmenter's website and say hello on Twitter.
Check out the footer navigation Sarah and Nick discussed at the You Know Who website.
Related Discussions
Have questions about this video? Start a discussion with the community and Treehouse staff.
Sign upRelated Discussions
Have questions about this video? Start a discussion with the community and Treehouse staff.
Sign up[MUSIC] 0:00 Well, hey everybody. I'm Nick Pettit @nickrp on twitter. 0:05 And I'm a web design teacher here at Treehouse, which of course is the 0:10 best way to learn about web design, 0:14 web development, mobile business, and so much more. 0:15 You can check us out at teamtreehouse.com. 0:19 Today we have a very special guest here with us in the studio today. 0:23 This is Sarah Parmenter. 0:27 Sarah, for people that don't 0:28 know who you are, how would you describe yourself in, in your own words? 0:30 >> I'd say I'm a user interface designer. 0:34 But for people who aren't really in our industry 0:37 or if I'm out and about I sometimes just 0:40 I'm a graphic designer, for ease of people not 0:42 understanding what a user interface designer is sometimes I say. 0:45 >> I know what you mean, sometimes I just 0:48 say like, I'm a web designer and don't get specific. 0:49 >> Yeah, sometimes I say that but then people go along 0:51 the lines of, oh you must be really geeky and [INAUDIBLE] and 0:53 then I'm like oh, it's just easier to say graphic designer. 0:56 But, I kinda do lots of things 0:59 but predominantly I'm a user interface designer. 1:00 >> Okay, cool. 1:03 Now you got your start in design when you were pretty young. 1:05 And so how, how did that happen? 1:09 How did you stumble into design? 1:11 >> In web design, I started when I was little. 1:14 Well, I was quite small I guess. I was in about 13, 14 when I started in 1:16 web design and that was just because. Geocities was quite big. 1:21 I don't know if you remember it. 1:25 >> Sure. Oh yeah, I do. 1:26 >> Yeah. 1:27 Geocities making your own homepage and stuff like 1:28 that was quite a thing when I was younger. 1:31 And the interface for actually uploading your own 1:34 pictures and changing texts, it was kind of clunky. 1:36 And it used to take an age to load. 1:40 It when the internet was like charged per minute to go on. 1:42 So I, 1:45 I started learning HTML just cuz it was faster to get my stuff up, basically. 1:46 So I started from there, and taught myself HTML. 1:52 And when CSS came along, and stuff like that, I, I kinda just kept bolting it on. 1:55 So I've seen lots of eras of, of the web come and go. 2:01 But yeah, I was self taught from a young age, and just was lucky that 2:04 when all of these new trends came in, I was at a point where I could 2:08 keep bolting them on to my existing skill set. 2:11 >> So, so, that's what I was gonna ask you, you. 2:14 It sounds like you're self taught. Did you attend university at all? 2:17 >> No, I'm, or actually was going along different lines. 2:20 When I was younger, I was thinking I wanted to go into acting. 2:24 And I worked for a casting agent for a while, but made more 2:27 money out of updating her website than I did out of doing actual casting. 2:30 So, at that point when I was going to, 2:33 college, I'm not sure what the equivalent is out here, 2:36 it's between like 16 and 18 I was going on 2:38 along the the lines of doing like English literature, and 2:41 acting, and then just keeping the web stuff on the side. 2:43 Cuz I didn't really understand, career wise, what it 2:46 could do until I kind of stumbled into using it. 2:49 >> Sure. 2:52 >> In a, in a professional environment. And I was kinda like, hm. 2:53 I wonder if this is a thing, like if she 2:56 needs her website updating then other people must need websites 2:58 updating and it kinda went from there really. 3:01 >> That's interesting. 3:03 We actually took pretty similar paths. I was... 3:05 [CROSSTALK] >> Oh, okay. 3:06 >> I was acting until I was acting up until I was about 18 3:07 years old and then I got more interested in like being behind the camera... 3:09 >> Yeah. 3:13 >> And that sort of led to web stuff. That's fascinating. 3:13 I didn't know that. so. 3:16 So do you exclusively design stuff for mobile cuz 3:18 that, that is kind of what you're known for. 3:22 >> Yeah. 3:24 >> Or, or do you design for 3:24 all sorts of different platforms. 3:26 >> I design for all different platforms. 3:27 I've gone back to doing print work recently for different things. 3:30 But mobile design. 3:34 Is what I've been doing for some bigger companies 3:35 for the last actually, the last three years now. 3:37 I've been designing some apps, kind of hush 3:40 hush under their kind of umbrella of teams. 3:42 I've been doing stuff for them, so that's all been mobile design. 3:45 And I think I was just lucky in that when the 3:49 iPhone came out in 2006, I was really, I was a really early adopter 3:52 of the iPhone, luckily, and I got really interested in designing for the platform. 3:57 So I was blogging about a lot of the stuff that other people, when it came 4:01 to them picking up and saying, well actually, 4:03 I think I want to design for this platform. 4:05 I'd already documented a lot of stuff, so that's, I became known for 4:07 that early on just purely because I was learning and documenting it early on. 4:11 >> What, what attracted you to 4:16 that platform? Why mobile, why not? 4:17 >> Honestly, the fixed canvas type stuff. 4:19 I really like working with a fixed canvass, 4:22 so, the iPhone, it just seemed perfect that 4:24 you have this perfect kind of rectangle to 4:27 work within and, and I like constraints like that. 4:30 Whereas the web, even when it was, I dunno, 960 pixels and fairly 4:33 fixed, I still felt like that was kind of big canvas to work with. 4:37 I really like the restriction. 4:40 >> Sure. 4:41 >> Working and, and it was, okay the operating 4:42 system's different now but back then it was really new. 4:45 And I remember the first time, probably everyone remembers the 4:48 first time they saw an iPhone and saw the operating system. 4:50 It was just like, magic. 4:53 And really like, the colors were really vibrant. 4:55 And I was just thinking yeah, I'd really love 4:57 to design for this, this is my sort of thing. 4:59 >> Now did you start out designing web apps for that 5:01 or did you get into it later when the app store came 5:04 along or? 5:07 >> I went straight into designing an, an app, 5:08 an app that was going on the app store. 5:12 Someone took a chance on me because I designed 5:13 the mock up and they took a chance on 5:15 me designing their mock up because I'd done their 5:17 website, which was like a strange thing that happened. 5:19 But he he sorta said, I've, I've got this, this app that I want to put on this new 5:22 thing called the, the App Store for the iPhone, and would you like to have a go 5:27 at designing it? 5:32 And I, I was very honest, and I just said, I've not designed for this before. 5:33 I want to design for it. 5:37 If you're happy with me charging for a couple of weeks, but giving me 5:39 six weeks to do it in, therefore you're not paying for my learning curve. 5:44 >> Right. >> But, you still get an app out of it. 5:47 >> Sure. 5:51 >> yeah, it was really lucky that we got 5:52 a, an excellent, really, really nice email back from Apple, 5:54 saying it was really well designed, but please 5:57 don't use this email as any form of endorsement, 6:00 >> [LAUGH] 6:02 >> we can't been seen to endorse any single 6:03 designer so I found myself right in the early 6:05 inception of iPhone design holding this email that said 6:07 Apple liked it but couldn't do anything with it. 6:10 >> Right. 6:13 >> But it gave me enough confidence to, to carry 6:13 on with it and know that I was doing something right. 6:16 So yeah it was good. >> Wow that's amazing. 6:18 So what's your process like? Do you, 6:20 you know, obviously you must talk to the client. 6:23 And then, what happens after that? 6:25 Do you wireframe in pencil? 6:27 Or in some sort of app? >> Yeah. 6:29 >> Do you jump into Illustrator? 6:31 Do you use Interface Builder at all? >> I have used Interface Builder. 6:33 And, to be honest. 6:37 I, because I've been working with larger teams that 6:38 process changes slightly depending on the team around you. 6:40 So when I've been working for larger teams, I 6:43 found that it's helpful to do stuff on paper. 6:45 Because you're normally in an environment where you need to express ideas maybe 6:48 differently to the way that they've set it or thought that the output goes. 6:52 And normally I get pulled in to kind of rip apps apart and go. 6:55 Is this really the best way that, that we're doing this as an app. 6:58 So the process changes on, depending on who it is. 7:02 If it's a small team of people then I tend 7:06 to just go straight into sort of fairly, I guess, 7:09 high-fidelity wireframes in some form of like, Photoshop, Illustrator. 7:12 I've actually mostly used Fireworks. 7:16 The only thing I ever used Fireworks for was that. 7:18 If it's, if it's something for just maybe a 7:21 smaller type app or something, that even maybe a 7:25 web app, I tend to just, go crazy on 7:28 my sketchbook and scan them and send them to people. 7:30 >> You find that people. 7:33 Are much happier to comment on sketches 7:34 than they when they feel like the, the level of polish is higher. 7:37 >> Is, is finished. 7:41 Yeah. 7:41 >> Cuz they feel, even if it is still in a wire-frame stage. 7:41 So it depends sometimes I always start things on paper even if it's just for my 7:44 benefit but these beautiful sketches that you see 7:48 sometimes people put in Dribble and things like that. 7:51 Mine don't look anything like that. >> [LAUGH] 7:53 >> It's the more crazy like rubbed out Everywhere, but yeah. 7:55 >> I, I think some people are feeling 7:58 very encouraged [LAUGH] to hear that right now. 8:00 >> Yeah, if people 8:01 saw my sketchbook, it's like a complete mess. 8:02 But I think that's what it's there for, a sketchbook isn't meant 8:05 to be a work of art, it's meant to be a thinking process. 8:07 And that's why I'm always a bit dubious when 8:11 people put out these like perfect sketches of things. 8:12 I'm like, did you just sit and draw that for twenty minutes 8:15 to then post on Dribble, cuz that's not really how I use it. 8:17 But to each his own. 8:21 >> But, okay so my next question is what are some of the biggest challenges 8:22 for designing for smaller screens because a lot of people, 8:28 I find seem to be more challenged by a smaller screen. 8:31 You're saying that you think it's actually easier. 8:35 >> Yeah easier to design for but not maybe in terms of 8:37 content is the main problem. 8:44 I find that the main problem is that people, don't necessarily understand 8:46 the medium as well so they have a website that has a 8:50 large volume of content on it, and then you need to have 8:52 this conversation where it's like okay, 8:55 especially if it's mobile, like responsive stuff. 8:57 You need to have a conversation of 9:00 what's the most important thing, because otherwise you're 9:02 gonna have reams and reams and a huge amount of swipes to get to the information 9:04 that you feel is the core. 9:09 That seems to be the recurring theme, 9:11 is just content transition between screen sizes, which 9:14 is something that I think we're all gonna have to get really, really good at. 9:18 But that is always the main problem. Or advertising. 9:22 Companies that I've worked for, they want to 9:25 insert advertising into stuff and it breaks the flow. 9:27 >> Yeah. 9:30 >> Of what you're doing. 9:30 I don't think anyone has completely 9:31 cracked how to get advertising into something 9:32 that seems seamless and actually nice. Some part of the experience. 9:35 It always seems like it kind of breaks, and 9:38 then comes back together, for something that you're viewing. 9:41 So, yeah I think advertising and, content transition are the hardest things. 9:44 I think the graphical thing is less so 9:48 now, especially since we've got away from skeuomorphic design. 9:50 Everything's a lot, kind of, can be done in Interface 9:54 Builder a lot easier, there's less exporting of graphics, so. 9:56 I think it just 9:59 comes down to advertising and content becomes the hardest things to port across. 10:00 >> Now, when you design apps in Illus in Interface Builder obviously 10:05 you're restricted to Apple's Human Interface guidelines for the most part. 10:10 >> Mm-hm. 10:15 >> Unless you're importing your own assets. 10:15 Do you, do you usually design very customized looking apps? 10:18 Or do you actually prefer to go with Apple's 10:22 style guidelines? 10:25 >> I prefer a mix of both, if I'm being honest. 10:27 I'm not completely sold on some of the elements of, of 10:30 iOS 7, I'm not convinced that they're right for us right now. 10:33 I don't like the line icons. I, I. 10:36 >> I don't think you're alone. >> No. 10:38 [LAUGH] There's some, I mean, it's grown on me. 10:39 It's definitely grown on me. 10:42 But there's certain things that I think it's good to question the conventions 10:43 that Apple put out because I think everyone's so quick to kind of go, 10:46 Apple's throwing this new thing at us. 10:50 Which means the web also has to follow this theme. 10:52 And you suddenly see it pop up everywhere, 10:55 without questioning whether it's actually making good sense. 10:57 I think some of the things that I personally would 11:01 change about the new operating system is the, the buttons. 11:03 The buttons don't look like buttons anymore. 11:07 >> They look more like links. 11:09 >> They look more like. >> Without underlines. 11:10 >> Yeah, they do. 11:11 >> You know. >> They're more like links. 11:13 And, and you have to read a lot more, 11:14 be aware of what the text Says rather than knowing that it's a button. 11:15 I, I personally, would love to see buttons come back even if they are flat. 11:19 That's just me. And the line icons that are everywhere. 11:23 They, they do take longer to register what it is. 11:28 If you follow someones eye pattern, it's like follow the whole thing 11:31 and then say that's what it is, rather than the solid ones. 11:34 Line icons are really not loving at the way but. 11:37 Yeah. >> Too. 11:41 >> I have to agree. 11:41 And you see them everywhere too. >> Yeah. 11:42 >> I don't understand it. 11:43 >> They certainly popped up everywhere. 11:44 But it's, it's not my favorite thing right now, and I think it's good to sometimes 11:46 question whether those things are done to be 11:50 different or whether it's actually good user experience. 11:54 And, and so sometimes my apps sit in-between the two. 11:57 I follow conventions because we need to get 12:01 through the app approval process and stuff like that. 12:03 >> Sure. 12:05 >> But then 12:06 try and bend the rules in that if you've got a 12:06 good, good bit of information as to why you shouldn't use stuff. 12:09 Because it just doesn't make good UX sense, then I think it's good to bend 12:12 the rules of the design, even if it 12:15 comes out of the Apple Human Interface Guidelines. 12:17 >> So, so you're saying you do that to get it approved initially, are you saying? 12:20 >> No, no. 12:23 I source it between the, so, you can't, you can't go completely crazy 12:24 on apps sometimes, because they'll come back and say, it's so outside of what 12:28 every other app does or feels like, that they don't want it to do that. 12:32 >> Right. 12:36 >> But, I mean with icons and things like that, that's easy 12:37 to swap out, and easy to have a conversation with a client about. 12:39 Actually it's the better user experience. 12:43 So, they, they wait for out for that, but some and 12:45 following most conventions helps, except with things like that, I think. 12:48 >> Sure, that's interesting. 12:52 Okay so my next question is, 12:54 is there, do you think there's any kinda 12:57 difference between designing native apps and web apps? 12:59 Or, you know, cuz you were saying earlier that, you 13:04 know, the web shouldn't always follow the conventions of native applications. 13:07 I mean, what are the differences there, for you? 13:11 >> It's a difficult one. 13:14 I think it depends on whether you're actually trying to mimic the 13:15 experience of an app using the web or whether you're actually accessing 13:18 a website. 13:23 With the intention of it being an 13:24 informational website, it depends on the two contexts. 13:25 I've had apps that I've thought or have been 13:29 told apps that would be downloaded through the app 13:31 store, and when it's actually come to it, it's 13:34 basically been a, a, wrapped website with tons of JavaScript. 13:37 >> Right. 13:41 >> So that becomes a problem when 13:41 people try and scroll and they're expecting it 13:42 to smooth scroll like it does within an app and then it freezes and breaks 13:45 and, all sorts of stuff, see. 13:48 yeah, the two, the two, I think 13:51 once upon a time were designed extremely differently. 13:54 Especially in the previous operating system. 13:56 But now, because everything again, I hate using the word flat. 13:59 I hate that, whole term. 14:02 >> That's what everybody says. [LAUGH] 14:03 >> [LAUGH] Because we've gone through this. 14:05 Flat thing it actually makes it easier to kind of make this, standardized look about 14:07 everything, even if it is a web app, or website or anything it, it's, all looking 14:11 a little similar at the moment. >> Right. 14:16 Okay Now do you code at all? 14:19 >> I do. Not for, for iOS. 14:22 >> Okay. 14:26 >> I tried it and it completely fried my brain. 14:26 And I wasn't a very nice person for about three weeks. 14:28 >> [LAUGH] Yeah, memory management is a little tough. 14:30 >> Yeah. 14:32 Yeah I find objectives in coco very 14:32 mathematical and I'm not mathematically brained at all. 14:35 I'm creative so like every, everything is in colors and shapes to me. 14:37 I do HTML and CSS, some JavaScript, some PHP. 14:42 I've done Ruby in the past, as well. 14:46 But really, I love being able to make stuff with it. 14:48 I love that freedom that it gives you 14:52 but I'd rather hand something over, almost like 14:54 really good comp of some sort that a 14:57 developer can take and actually like, plug it in. 14:59 For me, that's what I'd prefer. 15:02 But I have knowledge of CoCo and 15:04 objectives in, and how it works, and object-orientated 15:06 programming and everything like that, but it just, it's 15:08 one of those things that I just personally don't touch. 15:11 >> I, I tried it a long time ago, 15:14 and I agree, it seemed very difficult at the time. 15:17 I picked it back up just recently, and I'm finding it not as hard. 15:22 >> Okay, that's interesting. 15:27 >> Yeah, there's hope. >> Okay. 15:28 >> But yeah, I'm, I'm the same way, you know, I'm very very 15:30 visually oriented, I've, I've done some 15:34 programming actually quite a bit of programming. 15:36 But Objective C isn't that bad. 15:39 You, you, you can learn it. [LAUGH] 15:41 >> Okay, good sign. >> so. 15:43 My last question, and then we have some questions from our viewers 15:46 is, what's kind of the, the next frontier in design for you? 15:49 I mean, you're saying that you don't like flat design, and I 15:55 think a lot of people would agree with you. 15:59 Or at least you hate the term. 16:00 >> Yeah. 16:02 >> what, what do you think is kinda the next 16:03 I guess big challenge for web designers, I'm pretty sure. 16:05 >> I think it, I think it comes back to content again. 16:10 I think we're gonna have to be really smart about putting out multiple forms of 16:12 content because the devices that are gonna 16:17 access different sorts of content, could be anything. 16:20 I think we truly have to start thinking. 16:24 Although we probably all once laughed at the 16:26 fact that our refrigerator might have something in it. 16:28 >> Right. 16:30 >> That could be, I think we actually have to start thinking in terms of what 16:31 screens are gonna exist that don't exist now, 16:34 that are gonna need certain forms of content. 16:36 That aren't gonna make us have to go back to the 16:39 drawing board and rewrite tons of content at a later date. 16:40 I think it was Karen McGrane who's like, amazing content person, was saying that, 16:44 the best example of that is like tv listings. 16:49 So when you have a tv listing, some needs, some need a long form, others need short 16:53 form because they're going if you think of the 16:57 way you access it on your television it's restricted. 16:59 >> Hm. Yes. 17:01 >> If you're, if you're accessing it on 17:02 the web, you might have longer versions available. 17:03 So I think, I think the key is gonna 17:06 be in content management systems that don't exist right now. 17:08 They're gonna need to have a form of sending 17:12 different forms of content. 17:15 And that's not, I don't mean restricted in 17:16 terms of character where it will just break. 17:18 >> Right. 17:20 >> Actual different forms of content where the content 17:21 reformats with the most important thing at the top. 17:23 Or the most interesting thing at the top, or anything like that 17:26 where it actually restructures itself, rather 17:28 than just being truncated through characters. 17:31 >> Almost like using some sort of artificial intelligence. 17:33 Is that what you're discussing, or? 17:36 >> Yeah, some, some. I don't know. 17:38 I don't know. I don't have the answer. 17:40 I think we would all be very very rich if we did. 17:41 [LAUGH] But I think that's going to be the biggest challenge. 17:43 For us. 17:46 It won't necessarily come in, in form of design 17:47 cuz I think we're stripping back on that now. 17:49 And when, we're realizing that, asset creation maybe isn't the way forward. 17:51 >> Do you, do you think that has anything to do with, accessibility? 17:57 >> Yeah, huge part. >> Because I you know you're, 18:01 you're talking about smart appliances, and. 18:05 Sometimes it's hard to teach beginners the, the 18:08 good reasons behind forming, you know, well-structured HTML. 18:13 Why would you want to do that? 18:16 I mean, the browser renders it just fine if you, you don't. 18:17 >> Yeah. 18:20 >> Why do you have to use all these new tags, right. 18:20 And the example I always use is, yeah, 18:22 these, these far flung household appliances that you 18:24 know, can pull information down from the internet. 18:30 >> Mm-hm. 18:33 >> I've always imagined like, this blender that 18:33 could like, talk to you like Siri, you know. 18:36 And tell you, you know, all the different kinds of smoothies you can make. 18:38 And, and it needs to pull down 18:42 that information in some sort of structured format. 18:43 >> Yeah. 18:45 So that But that's interesting, I, I totally agree with 18:45 you, okay so we got a bunch of questions already. 18:48 >> Okay. >> This is good. 18:54 The first question says, what do you think about Fireworks? 18:56 Sarah mentioned having use it, used it before. 18:59 Do you still use it for anything? 19:02 >> No, I've actually just switched to using something 19:04 called Sketch, which is an app by Bohemian Coding. 19:07 It's super cheap, really, considering what a great app it is. 19:11 I think it's about 50 bucks. 19:14 And it does everything that, that Fireworks and Photoshop and 19:16 Illustrator would do, so its kind of a three in one program. 19:21 I used to be a Photoshop monkey for years. 19:24 Years like ten years of Photoshop and I recently switched to Sketch about 19:27 a month, maybe six weeks ago and I haven't really touched Photoshop since. 19:32 >> Wow. 19:36 >> Except for editing photos, which is what 19:36 is was meant for in the first place [LAUGH] 19:37 >> [LAUGH] Right, right. 19:39 [LAUGH] Well that's very cool. What's your opinion of skeuomorphism? 19:39 >> I used to love it. 19:46 I used to, I used to really enjoy designing for it. 19:48 >> I think everyone did. 19:51 >> But once you've done one too many leather stitches 19:52 too far and you start to lose the will to live. 19:54 I, I don't think it's a bad thing. 19:57 I think it's a, an interesting thing to look at the concepts of 19:59 mimicking, user interface design that mimics stuff 20:03 that you would use in real life. 20:06 I think some apps took it too far. Find Friends was like, 20:07 the most awful. [LAUGH] 20:11 >> That's the one I always pick out 20:13 too, because that doesn't exist in real life. 20:15 >> No. 20:18 >> Like, is that leather stitching and this map? 20:18 Even supposed to be, you know? 20:21 >> Yeah, that was an interesting one and I can't remember what 20:22 app it was that had wooden buttons in it, which I always loved. 20:24 >> Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. 20:28 >> I kind of love the idea of wooden buttons but, some things 20:30 take it too far but I think it, it's maybe about scaling back and 20:33 just looking at what, what can mimic stuff in real life that people would 20:36 then find easier from a UX perspective 20:40 rather than actually physically making it look similar. 20:42 >> Right. 20:45 >> As similar as having leather bound stuff and things. 20:45 >> So, so this is, an interesting one. 20:49 I'm actually personally, interested in this, as well. 20:51 Does Sarah have any thoughts that's you about designing for television screens? 20:54 >> Oh, 21:00 yes. 21:02 I actually pitched for a project for this that they never, they never did. 21:02 I pitched for a project for this company who 21:07 take Apple TVs, hack them, sell them back to hotel 21:10 chains, and then rebrand the kind of, when you 21:13 walk into a hotel and you see the welcome message. 21:16 >> Right. >> And stuff like that. 21:18 It was really interesting. What you have to do to do that. 21:19 The, the assets that you need to create. Completely alien DPI 21:22 versions of things that I've never dealt with. 21:27 >> Oh my gosh. 21:29 >> It was yeah, it's really interesting. 21:29 I was kind of sad that that never came off, cuz I used 21:32 a, a single template, and just recolored it for each hotel in the end. 21:34 But, that was a really interesting one because you had static 21:38 elements and then you had to design things that would change. 21:41 So, weather sections it would change so it was almost like bringing together 21:43 all the best parts of designing for iOS, but on one giant screen. 21:48 >> Right. 21:51 >> So it was like, having a utility app for weather in one section and 21:52 then having a, a rolling news feed on the other and then having other sections. 21:55 It was really, really interesting but, but really steep learning curve. 21:59 >> Well, maybe if those Apple television rumors ever 22:03 come true we'll all be designing for TVs again. 22:05 >> Let's hope so. 22:08 >> We'll see. So Edward says, love your glasses Sarah. 22:09 >> Well thanks, Edward. >> Other than Treehouse, 22:14 of course, how can a beginner get more involved in the industry? 22:17 >> Conferences. 22:23 I know that's probably a really cliche answer but I would say. 22:25 >> That's what I always say. 22:28 >> Getting involved in the conferences 22:29 and understanding that our industry is wonderful 22:31 in the sense of most of our networking, networking is not really networking. 22:34 But it happens in bars after conferences, or 22:39 it happens during coffee breaks at conferences. 22:42 Even if you're not a particularly confident 22:46 person I think learning how to just hold 22:48 yourself in a conference environment where you feel you can go up and talk to people. 22:50 Maybe people who you see online, see teaching Treehouse stuff. 22:54 Having the confidence, in a non-creepy way, to walk up and just say, 22:57 hey, you know, I really love this that you've put out or I'm really looking 23:03 to get into something. 23:08 One thing I have learnt is people really love 23:10 people who are clearly trying their hardest to do something. 23:13 So if you are a beginner and you're trying with all your might 23:17 to get into the industry or you're stuck on something, everyone kind of 23:20 takes you under their wing and really just looks after you and says, 23:24 look, have you've seen this resource, or have you seen this website or. 23:27 You've got this book. 23:31 But then, it's also a weird balance of learning when, to leave as well. 23:33 Otherwise, you end up that creepy guy who's,stood 23:38 next to everyone not knowing what to do. 23:40 >> Right, right. 23:42 Conferences, yeah. 23:44 Conferences are a wonderful place to, to network. 23:45 >> Well, I think, I think everybody wants to talk. 23:48 >> Yeah. 23:50 >> And that's the thing that nobody thinks 23:51 about is, you know, everybody wants to talk. 23:52 So llike, I find it really easy to go up to people. 23:53 I didn't used to, 23:57 but yeah if you just go up and talk to people, everybody's so nice. 23:58 >> Yeah, yeah definitely. 24:02 >> Like, nobody's going to bite your head off. 24:04 Alright so, Steve asks. 24:06 What sizes or break points do you design for when starting a new mobile design? 24:09 >> Okay so that's responsive design rather than actual fixed native stuff. 24:17 >> Yes. >> In terms of break 24:22 points, I don't really believe they exist sometimes. 24:24 So, they do, the standard ones exist. 24:28 >> Sure. 24:30 >> But then anything outside of that, I think 24:30 a break point is exactly what it says it is. 24:32 A break point should be when the design breaks and not a set size. 24:35 So, as long as you've designed in percentages, and 24:39 you can kind of do that thing that we will 24:41 do of pulling in the browser in and out, your 24:43 content will reformat to a certain point, if you've done 24:46 that properly. 24:49 It then becomes an, an issue of whether 24:49 you're gonna take something full screen, whether you're going 24:52 to remove it, whether you're gonna break that into 24:53 parts that are smaller, or that becomes the issue. 24:55 >> Right. 24:58 >> And normally that will happen at a breakpoint that's outside the normal ones. 24:59 Which are like the iPhone, iPad, other tablets, et cetera, et cetera. 25:04 So, my breakpoints are always a bit strange cuz they're 25:08 just where the design breaks and not actually a particular 25:11 set size. 25:14 >> Gosh, that's a really great way to think of it. 25:15 I don't think I've ever heard that before. 25:17 Maybe I have. 25:19 But, just thinking of it in terms of yeah, where the design breaks. 25:19 >> Yeah. To me it was just one of those things. 25:23 I, I found responsive design quite a hard 25:26 learning curve again because it was quite mathematical. 25:28 >> Yeah. 25:31 >> So, and I'd been doing iOS design for the, the entire time 25:31 that everyone was going, responsive design, 25:35 I was kind of that charlatan sitting 25:37 in my office [LAUGH] going, please, no one ask me about 25:39 it cuz I haven't even read the book or anything right now. 25:42 >> Right. 25:44 >> And then when I did dig into it, It just 25:44 made sense that break points shouldn't be, shouldn't be device points. 25:47 Otherwise, you're just designing for design specific. 25:51 >> Right. 25:54 You're defeating the purpose. 25:54 >> Break points and you're defeating the purpose of it. 25:55 So then, it just becomes well, break points should be where the design breaks. 25:56 >> Very cool. So Romain asks: 26:01 Do you have any advice for freelancers? 26:04 >> Get out of bed. Take your pajamas off. 26:09 Have a good shower. 26:12 [LAUGH] No, I'm being serious. That's the one thing 26:13 >> No. 26:15 >> I think is. >> I know, I know you're being serious. 26:15 That's why I'm laughing. 26:17 >> As freelancers, I think you get so comfortable with this 26:18 whole notion of I can just work at home in my pajamas. 26:21 I don't have to have a shower until 3:00 in the 26:25 afternoon, but I think that mindset is really dangerous to get into. 26:27 So, actually just getting up and having a normal routine like a normal 26:30 working person. 26:35 Or come out, I sometimes, if I'm feeling really like, ugh. 26:36 It's Monday morning or yeah. 26:39 I just take a walk round the, round the block and come back into my house 26:42 again and feel like oh, I've taken my walk to work and now I'm at work. 26:45 >> Right. 26:49 >> It's, I think it's more of a mindset thing. 26:49 If you're the sort of person who's gonna 26:51 get distracted by the latest Grand Theft Auto sitting 26:53 in the corner and wanting to play with that then you just have to change the way 26:55 that you have a mindset about work. 27:00 You just have to be aware that you're the sort of person who will naturally want to 27:02 gravitate off work and try and bring it back, every so often that, is a hard one. 27:05 Freelancing is, is tough, it's really tough. 27:10 >> I've found that having a separate physical space helps me work at home. 27:13 >> Yeah. 27:17 >> You know if, if he can do that, like that's really one of the greatest things 27:17 you can do for yourself, is just having a separate room, go in there, you work, and 27:21 when you come out, work's over. >> Yeah. 27:25 >> You know, I think. 27:27 >> Also, I think with working from home, 27:28 you have to be more aware of when you 27:31 do that thing where you're sitting in front 27:33 of your computer and, actually, you're not working anymore. 27:35 You've, you've gravitated towards Twitter or Facebook. 27:37 And you think because you've sat at your desk, you're working. 27:40 And it took me a while to, to understand when I 27:44 was actually just, what I thought was like even passively working. 27:46 It's not passively working. >> You're just, 27:49 you're just doing social media marketing. >> You just, yeah. 27:50 >> Yeah, totally. 27:52 >> You find yourself sat there and 27:52 you're like, actually I'm not working at all. 27:53 I should have a break and then come back. 27:56 It's understanding those kind of nuances of 27:58 design, of, of working from home, I think. 28:00 >> Absolutely. 28:04 So, Andy asks. 28:05 What was your thought process behind the 28:07 footer navigation on the You Know Who website? 28:10 Was it purely for aesthetics? 28:12 >> Hm, no. 28:15 I'll honestly answer, I quite liked it because it was different. 28:17 I wanted to think more mobile first concept and, and so it 28:21 was navigation that changes and reformats for iPhone beautifully and any other. 28:25 Mm-hm. 28:30 >> Any other phone or tablet. 28:31 So, it was me actually trying to experiment with the 28:33 whole notion of mobile first and then coming up to desktop. 28:36 And wondering whether people would, 28:39 would see or understand that the navigation was flipped. 28:41 It's just one of those things. 28:46 Was just trying to be different. 28:47 >> It seems to work. [CROSSTALK] 28:49 >> So. 28:50 >> I looked at it and I think it looks pretty nice. 28:50 >> Oh, thank you. [CROSSTALK] 28:52 >> But. >> So, that's all changing anyway. 28:53 [LAUGH] So, it's irrelevant. But oh, thank you. 28:54 Yeah, nice. It was just me trying to be different. 28:57 So, I think we only have a couple more questions here. 29:00 Oll, Ollie asks, You've had success 29:03 outside the web with Blush Bar. 29:07 Is there anything within the industry you want to challenge as a personal project? 29:10 I guess you should probably explain what Blush Bar is? 29:16 >> Okay, Blush Bar is my personal project. 29:18 It's actually a blow dry bar, which seems 29:21 so random, but I have my reasons behind it. 29:24 Repeat the last section of the question. 29:29 Sorry, so what? >> Ollie says, 29:30 is there anything within the industry you want to challenge as a personal 29:32 project? >> Oh I guess on a, broader level 29:36 I really wanna crack Ruby on Rails just because I really like the idea of, 29:42 of being able to fully design out and develop anything. 29:48 And I would really like to do the same with Objective C and Coco, to be honest. 29:53 >> Oh, Treehouse is a wonderful place to learn all of those things. 29:57 >> Yeah, it is. 30:00 >> [LAUGH] 30:01 >> True. 30:01 It's true, I've been working my 30:01 way through, actually on the [INAUDIBLE] course. 30:02 yeah, in terms of, of bigger industry stuff, I don't know, I have something in 30:07 the pipeline at the moment, but I'm keeping shh on it at the moment, but. 30:11 Yeah, there's, there's always. >> Understandable. 30:15 >> But there's always, that's the great thing about our industry though, right? 30:17 There's always a problem that anyone can solve. 30:19 Not just anyone 30:21 who's like seen as the head of their game in whatever they do. 30:22 There are problems are in our industry that, that 30:26 anyone can solve, whether you're a freelancer, whether you're 30:29 just starting out, there's ways of collaborating with people 30:31 that you meet at conferences who do have the skills. 30:33 That's what I like about our industry is 30:36 newbies can, can solve something that people who've 30:38 been in the industry for years have been 30:41 struggling because they've got fresh approach on it. 30:42 So I think anything is up for the grabs. 30:45 >> Very true. Okay. 30:48 Two more questions here. 30:49 >> Okay. 30:50 >> Going back to freelancing, is it honestly possible for most freelancers 30:51 to survive, so many jobs don't end up paying a living wage? 30:56 That's interesting. 31:01 >> So, this one is a really hard one. 31:03 I think actually, last week when I was patterns, we were talking about this. 31:06 We were saying that it's a really hard 31:12 thing for everyone who's been in the industry 31:13 a while to then think back to how it was when you didn't have any money. 31:15 Every person who's now seen as being someone who's good at 31:20 what they do has done that and has done those struggles. 31:23 But it's very hard 31:28 when you hear that whole follow your dream, everything will turn out okay. 31:28 It's hard to then think back to know there's, 31:33 you have to put in a lot of hard work. 31:36 And I think maybe the only way for some 31:39 people to start off on the freelancing path is 31:41 to start in a company first where you feel 31:43 that you have that cushion of the wage coming in. 31:45 And then do freelancing on the side if you can. 31:48 We're also talking about how wages 31:51 and, you know, if you are in a company where you've been there a 31:54 while and they can't raise your salary because of the economic climate we're in. 31:57 Try and barter to get days at home that you can work, therefore you can 32:01 work on side projects and you can 32:06 work on building up freelance portfolios and things. 32:08 I think it's really hard for people to just go, now I'm gonna be a 32:11 freelancer, nowadays because there's a lot of people who want to do it as well. 32:14 So I think it's a, it's a 32:18 really hard thing at the moment and it's 32:19 a hard thing to survive amongst everyone and be 32:23 seen and heard amongst everyone as well, but 32:25 I think there is enough work to go around. 32:27 So it's just putting yourself out there 32:30 marketing yourself learning a bit about personal 32:32 branding and how you can, how you're seen by other people is really important. 32:35 >> Absolutely so last question here is, what is the best or 32:39 your favorite project that you've designed? 32:45 >> Oh. 32:49 Interesting. 32:50 I'm gonna go with two cuz they are very different. 32:52 one, I was working on an internal 32:57 app for News International which was really interesting. 32:59 I haven't, I can't show any screenshots of it cuz it was an internal app. 33:03 But it was, it was really interesting because 33:06 it had to solve many problems about content. 33:08 And show who was maybe the best journalist for that week. 33:11 Who was really engaging on Twitter. 33:15 It pulled in lots of different social feeds. 33:17 So it meant designing tons of dashboards, which I've always wanted to design. 33:19 I think anyone who's a designer's always wanted to just get hold of a dashboard. 33:23 And it meant designing about 18 different dashboards. 33:27 That all had to have a similar look and feel that 33:30 did very, very different things, so that was like a dream project 33:34 for me that I worked on for a year. I was really, really lucky to do that. 33:36 Second one would probably be my side project back at home, because 33:41 the blow dry bar, which is really random, but what it meant 33:44 I could do is actually take everything that I'd learnt of, over 33:47 the ten years of being in the industry, and go back to. 33:51 If I didn't have any clients at all telling me 33:55 what to do, how would I design something like this. 33:57 So it took me back to doing print 34:00 work, branding work, websites, really basic website stuff. 34:02 But all without that kind of oppressive client coming down 34:06 on your shoulders saying no, no can we move that. 34:10 Ten pixels to the left yeah. 34:12 So that was great because it gave me complete creative freedom to go 34:15 back and go oh, I wonder if I could still do print work? 34:18 Or wonder if I could still brand something? 34:21 So, that was my, the favorite of this year. 34:23 >> Very cool stuff. 34:27 Well that's all the time we have for for today. 34:29 You are who on Twitter? >> Yeah, sazzy on Twitter. 34:33 >> So if we didn't get your question, go ahead and tweet to Sarah. 34:38 >> Yeah. 34:43 >> Sure she'd be happy to answer. 34:43 You're you're here at Treehouse because you're actually shooting a 34:45 course, can you tell us a little bit about that? 34:50 >> So, we, I just got finished shooting in here, today. 34:52 So I'm shooting a course for iOS designs, it's mobile app design. 34:56 It's a whole course about, we're actually designing a diary app. 35:01 So it takes you right from the start of planning and doing the 35:05 wireframes and writing certain documentation that 35:08 will help with developers, right through to. 35:11 Designing and exporting your artwork, so it's like a full course on 35:13 mobile app design. >> Very cool stuff. 35:18 Well, I'm sure we'll release that as soon as we possibly can. 35:20 It'll be coming very soon. 35:24 If you'd like to learn more about us and learn web design, web development mobile 35:27 business and so much more. You can check us out at teamtreehouse.com. 35:32 Thanks so much for watching and we'll see you real soon. 35:37 [MUSIC] 35:40
You need to sign up for Treehouse in order to download course files.
Sign upYou need to sign up for Treehouse in order to set up Workspace
Sign up