Mobile Interface Design - Sarah Parmenter

[MUSIC] 0:00 Well, hey everybody. I'm Nick Pettit @nickrp on twitter. 0:05 And I'm a web design teacher here at Treehouse, which of course is the 0:10 best way to learn about web design, 0:14 web development, mobile business, and so much more. 0:15 You can check us out at teamtreehouse.com. 0:19 Today we have a very special guest here with us in the studio today. 0:23 This is Sarah Parmenter. 0:27 Sarah, for people that don't 0:28 know who you are, how would you describe yourself in, in your own words? 0:30 >> I'd say I'm a user interface designer. 0:34 But for people who aren't really in our industry 0:37 or if I'm out and about I sometimes just 0:40 I'm a graphic designer, for ease of people not 0:42 understanding what a user interface designer is sometimes I say. 0:45 >> I know what you mean, sometimes I just 0:48 say like, I'm a web designer and don't get specific. 0:49 >> Yeah, sometimes I say that but then people go along 0:51 the lines of, oh you must be really geeky and [INAUDIBLE] and 0:53 then I'm like oh, it's just easier to say graphic designer. 0:56 But, I kinda do lots of things 0:59 but predominantly I'm a user interface designer. 1:00 >> Okay, cool. 1:03 Now you got your start in design when you were pretty young. 1:05 And so how, how did that happen? 1:09 How did you stumble into design? 1:11 >> In web design, I started when I was little. 1:14 Well, I was quite small I guess. I was in about 13, 14 when I started in 1:16 web design and that was just because. Geocities was quite big. 1:21 I don't know if you remember it. 1:25 >> Sure. Oh yeah, I do. 1:26 >> Yeah. 1:27 Geocities making your own homepage and stuff like 1:28 that was quite a thing when I was younger. 1:31 And the interface for actually uploading your own 1:34 pictures and changing texts, it was kind of clunky. 1:36 And it used to take an age to load. 1:40 It when the internet was like charged per minute to go on. 1:42 So I, 1:45 I started learning HTML just cuz it was faster to get my stuff up, basically. 1:46 So I started from there, and taught myself HTML. 1:52 And when CSS came along, and stuff like that, I, I kinda just kept bolting it on. 1:55 So I've seen lots of eras of, of the web come and go. 2:01 But yeah, I was self taught from a young age, and just was lucky that 2:04 when all of these new trends came in, I was at a point where I could 2:08 keep bolting them on to my existing skill set. 2:11 >> So, so, that's what I was gonna ask you, you. 2:14 It sounds like you're self taught. Did you attend university at all? 2:17 >> No, I'm, or actually was going along different lines. 2:20 When I was younger, I was thinking I wanted to go into acting. 2:24 And I worked for a casting agent for a while, but made more 2:27 money out of updating her website than I did out of doing actual casting. 2:30 So, at that point when I was going to, 2:33 college, I'm not sure what the equivalent is out here, 2:36 it's between like 16 and 18 I was going on 2:38 along the the lines of doing like English literature, and 2:41 acting, and then just keeping the web stuff on the side. 2:43 Cuz I didn't really understand, career wise, what it 2:46 could do until I kind of stumbled into using it. 2:49 >> Sure. 2:52 >> In a, in a professional environment. And I was kinda like, hm. 2:53 I wonder if this is a thing, like if she 2:56 needs her website updating then other people must need websites 2:58 updating and it kinda went from there really. 3:01 >> That's interesting. 3:03 We actually took pretty similar paths. I was... 3:05 [CROSSTALK] >> Oh, okay. 3:06 >> I was acting until I was acting up until I was about 18 3:07 years old and then I got more interested in like being behind the camera... 3:09 >> Yeah. 3:13 >> And that sort of led to web stuff. That's fascinating. 3:13 I didn't know that. so. 3:16 So do you exclusively design stuff for mobile cuz 3:18 that, that is kind of what you're known for. 3:22 >> Yeah. 3:24 >> Or, or do you design for 3:24 all sorts of different platforms. 3:26 >> I design for all different platforms. 3:27 I've gone back to doing print work recently for different things. 3:30 But mobile design. 3:34 Is what I've been doing for some bigger companies 3:35 for the last actually, the last three years now. 3:37 I've been designing some apps, kind of hush 3:40 hush under their kind of umbrella of teams. 3:42 I've been doing stuff for them, so that's all been mobile design. 3:45 And I think I was just lucky in that when the 3:49 iPhone came out in 2006, I was really, I was a really early adopter 3:52 of the iPhone, luckily, and I got really interested in designing for the platform. 3:57 So I was blogging about a lot of the stuff that other people, when it came 4:01 to them picking up and saying, well actually, 4:03 I think I want to design for this platform. 4:05 I'd already documented a lot of stuff, so that's, I became known for 4:07 that early on just purely because I was learning and documenting it early on. 4:11 >> What, what attracted you to 4:16 that platform? Why mobile, why not? 4:17 >> Honestly, the fixed canvas type stuff. 4:19 I really like working with a fixed canvass, 4:22 so, the iPhone, it just seemed perfect that 4:24 you have this perfect kind of rectangle to 4:27 work within and, and I like constraints like that. 4:30 Whereas the web, even when it was, I dunno, 960 pixels and fairly 4:33 fixed, I still felt like that was kind of big canvas to work with. 4:37 I really like the restriction. 4:40 >> Sure. 4:41 >> Working and, and it was, okay the operating 4:42 system's different now but back then it was really new. 4:45 And I remember the first time, probably everyone remembers the 4:48 first time they saw an iPhone and saw the operating system. 4:50 It was just like, magic. 4:53 And really like, the colors were really vibrant. 4:55 And I was just thinking yeah, I'd really love 4:57 to design for this, this is my sort of thing. 4:59 >> Now did you start out designing web apps for that 5:01 or did you get into it later when the app store came 5:04 along or? 5:07 >> I went straight into designing an, an app, 5:08 an app that was going on the app store. 5:12 Someone took a chance on me because I designed 5:13 the mock up and they took a chance on 5:15 me designing their mock up because I'd done their 5:17 website, which was like a strange thing that happened. 5:19 But he he sorta said, I've, I've got this, this app that I want to put on this new 5:22 thing called the, the App Store for the iPhone, and would you like to have a go 5:27 at designing it? 5:32 And I, I was very honest, and I just said, I've not designed for this before. 5:33 I want to design for it. 5:37 If you're happy with me charging for a couple of weeks, but giving me 5:39 six weeks to do it in, therefore you're not paying for my learning curve. 5:44 >> Right. >> But, you still get an app out of it. 5:47 >> Sure. 5:51 >> yeah, it was really lucky that we got 5:52 a, an excellent, really, really nice email back from Apple, 5:54 saying it was really well designed, but please 5:57 don't use this email as any form of endorsement, 6:00 >> [LAUGH] 6:02 >> we can't been seen to endorse any single 6:03 designer so I found myself right in the early 6:05 inception of iPhone design holding this email that said 6:07 Apple liked it but couldn't do anything with it. 6:10 >> Right. 6:13 >> But it gave me enough confidence to, to carry 6:13 on with it and know that I was doing something right. 6:16 So yeah it was good. >> Wow that's amazing. 6:18 So what's your process like? Do you, 6:20 you know, obviously you must talk to the client. 6:23 And then, what happens after that? 6:25 Do you wireframe in pencil? 6:27 Or in some sort of app? >> Yeah. 6:29 >> Do you jump into Illustrator? 6:31 Do you use Interface Builder at all? >> I have used Interface Builder. 6:33 And, to be honest. 6:37 I, because I've been working with larger teams that 6:38 process changes slightly depending on the team around you. 6:40 So when I've been working for larger teams, I 6:43 found that it's helpful to do stuff on paper. 6:45 Because you're normally in an environment where you need to express ideas maybe 6:48 differently to the way that they've set it or thought that the output goes. 6:52 And normally I get pulled in to kind of rip apps apart and go. 6:55 Is this really the best way that, that we're doing this as an app. 6:58 So the process changes on, depending on who it is. 7:02 If it's a small team of people then I tend 7:06 to just go straight into sort of fairly, I guess, 7:09 high-fidelity wireframes in some form of like, Photoshop, Illustrator. 7:12 I've actually mostly used Fireworks. 7:16 The only thing I ever used Fireworks for was that. 7:18 If it's, if it's something for just maybe a 7:21 smaller type app or something, that even maybe a 7:25 web app, I tend to just, go crazy on 7:28 my sketchbook and scan them and send them to people. 7:30 >> You find that people. 7:33 Are much happier to comment on sketches 7:34 than they when they feel like the, the level of polish is higher. 7:37 >> Is, is finished. 7:41 Yeah. 7:41 >> Cuz they feel, even if it is still in a wire-frame stage. 7:41 So it depends sometimes I always start things on paper even if it's just for my 7:44 benefit but these beautiful sketches that you see 7:48 sometimes people put in Dribble and things like that. 7:51 Mine don't look anything like that. >> [LAUGH] 7:53 >> It's the more crazy like rubbed out Everywhere, but yeah. 7:55 >> I, I think some people are feeling 7:58 very encouraged [LAUGH] to hear that right now. 8:00 >> Yeah, if people 8:01 saw my sketchbook, it's like a complete mess. 8:02 But I think that's what it's there for, a sketchbook isn't meant 8:05 to be a work of art, it's meant to be a thinking process. 8:07 And that's why I'm always a bit dubious when 8:11 people put out these like perfect sketches of things. 8:12 I'm like, did you just sit and draw that for twenty minutes 8:15 to then post on Dribble, cuz that's not really how I use it. 8:17 But to each his own. 8:21 >> But, okay so my next question is what are some of the biggest challenges 8:22 for designing for smaller screens because a lot of people, 8:28 I find seem to be more challenged by a smaller screen. 8:31 You're saying that you think it's actually easier. 8:35 >> Yeah easier to design for but not maybe in terms of 8:37 content is the main problem. 8:44 I find that the main problem is that people, don't necessarily understand 8:46 the medium as well so they have a website that has a 8:50 large volume of content on it, and then you need to have 8:52 this conversation where it's like okay, 8:55 especially if it's mobile, like responsive stuff. 8:57 You need to have a conversation of 9:00 what's the most important thing, because otherwise you're 9:02 gonna have reams and reams and a huge amount of swipes to get to the information 9:04 that you feel is the core. 9:09 That seems to be the recurring theme, 9:11 is just content transition between screen sizes, which 9:14 is something that I think we're all gonna have to get really, really good at. 9:18 But that is always the main problem. Or advertising. 9:22 Companies that I've worked for, they want to 9:25 insert advertising into stuff and it breaks the flow. 9:27 >> Yeah. 9:30 >> Of what you're doing. 9:30 I don't think anyone has completely 9:31 cracked how to get advertising into something 9:32 that seems seamless and actually nice. Some part of the experience. 9:35 It always seems like it kind of breaks, and 9:38 then comes back together, for something that you're viewing. 9:41 So, yeah I think advertising and, content transition are the hardest things. 9:44 I think the graphical thing is less so 9:48 now, especially since we've got away from skeuomorphic design. 9:50 Everything's a lot, kind of, can be done in Interface 9:54 Builder a lot easier, there's less exporting of graphics, so. 9:56 I think it just 9:59 comes down to advertising and content becomes the hardest things to port across. 10:00 >> Now, when you design apps in Illus in Interface Builder obviously 10:05 you're restricted to Apple's Human Interface guidelines for the most part. 10:10 >> Mm-hm. 10:15 >> Unless you're importing your own assets. 10:15 Do you, do you usually design very customized looking apps? 10:18 Or do you actually prefer to go with Apple's 10:22 style guidelines? 10:25 >> I prefer a mix of both, if I'm being honest. 10:27 I'm not completely sold on some of the elements of, of 10:30 iOS 7, I'm not convinced that they're right for us right now. 10:33 I don't like the line icons. I, I. 10:36 >> I don't think you're alone. >> No. 10:38 [LAUGH] There's some, I mean, it's grown on me. 10:39 It's definitely grown on me. 10:42 But there's certain things that I think it's good to question the conventions 10:43 that Apple put out because I think everyone's so quick to kind of go, 10:46 Apple's throwing this new thing at us. 10:50 Which means the web also has to follow this theme. 10:52 And you suddenly see it pop up everywhere, 10:55 without questioning whether it's actually making good sense. 10:57 I think some of the things that I personally would 11:01 change about the new operating system is the, the buttons. 11:03 The buttons don't look like buttons anymore. 11:07 >> They look more like links. 11:09 >> They look more like. >> Without underlines. 11:10 >> Yeah, they do. 11:11 >> You know. >> They're more like links. 11:13 And, and you have to read a lot more, 11:14 be aware of what the text Says rather than knowing that it's a button. 11:15 I, I personally, would love to see buttons come back even if they are flat. 11:19 That's just me. And the line icons that are everywhere. 11:23 They, they do take longer to register what it is. 11:28 If you follow someones eye pattern, it's like follow the whole thing 11:31 and then say that's what it is, rather than the solid ones. 11:34 Line icons are really not loving at the way but. 11:37 Yeah. >> Too. 11:41 >> I have to agree. 11:41 And you see them everywhere too. >> Yeah. 11:42 >> I don't understand it. 11:43 >> They certainly popped up everywhere. 11:44 But it's, it's not my favorite thing right now, and I think it's good to sometimes 11:46 question whether those things are done to be 11:50 different or whether it's actually good user experience. 11:54 And, and so sometimes my apps sit in-between the two. 11:57 I follow conventions because we need to get 12:01 through the app approval process and stuff like that. 12:03 >> Sure. 12:05 >> But then 12:06 try and bend the rules in that if you've got a 12:06 good, good bit of information as to why you shouldn't use stuff. 12:09 Because it just doesn't make good UX sense, then I think it's good to bend 12:12 the rules of the design, even if it 12:15 comes out of the Apple Human Interface Guidelines. 12:17 >> So, so you're saying you do that to get it approved initially, are you saying? 12:20 >> No, no. 12:23 I source it between the, so, you can't, you can't go completely crazy 12:24 on apps sometimes, because they'll come back and say, it's so outside of what 12:28 every other app does or feels like, that they don't want it to do that. 12:32 >> Right. 12:36 >> But, I mean with icons and things like that, that's easy 12:37 to swap out, and easy to have a conversation with a client about. 12:39 Actually it's the better user experience. 12:43 So, they, they wait for out for that, but some and 12:45 following most conventions helps, except with things like that, I think. 12:48 >> Sure, that's interesting. 12:52 Okay so my next question is, 12:54 is there, do you think there's any kinda 12:57 difference between designing native apps and web apps? 12:59 Or, you know, cuz you were saying earlier that, you 13:04 know, the web shouldn't always follow the conventions of native applications. 13:07 I mean, what are the differences there, for you? 13:11 >> It's a difficult one. 13:14 I think it depends on whether you're actually trying to mimic the 13:15 experience of an app using the web or whether you're actually accessing 13:18 a website. 13:23 With the intention of it being an 13:24 informational website, it depends on the two contexts. 13:25 I've had apps that I've thought or have been 13:29 told apps that would be downloaded through the app 13:31 store, and when it's actually come to it, it's 13:34 basically been a, a, wrapped website with tons of JavaScript. 13:37 >> Right. 13:41 >> So that becomes a problem when 13:41 people try and scroll and they're expecting it 13:42 to smooth scroll like it does within an app and then it freezes and breaks 13:45 and, all sorts of stuff, see. 13:48 yeah, the two, the two, I think 13:51 once upon a time were designed extremely differently. 13:54 Especially in the previous operating system. 13:56 But now, because everything again, I hate using the word flat. 13:59 I hate that, whole term. 14:02 >> That's what everybody says. [LAUGH] 14:03 >> [LAUGH] Because we've gone through this. 14:05 Flat thing it actually makes it easier to kind of make this, standardized look about 14:07 everything, even if it is a web app, or website or anything it, it's, all looking 14:11 a little similar at the moment. >> Right. 14:16 Okay Now do you code at all? 14:19 >> I do. Not for, for iOS. 14:22 >> Okay. 14:26 >> I tried it and it completely fried my brain. 14:26 And I wasn't a very nice person for about three weeks. 14:28 >> [LAUGH] Yeah, memory management is a little tough. 14:30 >> Yeah. 14:32 Yeah I find objectives in coco very 14:32 mathematical and I'm not mathematically brained at all. 14:35 I'm creative so like every, everything is in colors and shapes to me. 14:37 I do HTML and CSS, some JavaScript, some PHP. 14:42 I've done Ruby in the past, as well. 14:46 But really, I love being able to make stuff with it. 14:48 I love that freedom that it gives you 14:52 but I'd rather hand something over, almost like 14:54 really good comp of some sort that a 14:57 developer can take and actually like, plug it in. 14:59 For me, that's what I'd prefer. 15:02 But I have knowledge of CoCo and 15:04 objectives in, and how it works, and object-orientated 15:06 programming and everything like that, but it just, it's 15:08 one of those things that I just personally don't touch. 15:11 >> I, I tried it a long time ago, 15:14 and I agree, it seemed very difficult at the time. 15:17 I picked it back up just recently, and I'm finding it not as hard. 15:22 >> Okay, that's interesting. 15:27 >> Yeah, there's hope. >> Okay. 15:28 >> But yeah, I'm, I'm the same way, you know, I'm very very 15:30 visually oriented, I've, I've done some 15:34 programming actually quite a bit of programming. 15:36 But Objective C isn't that bad. 15:39 You, you, you can learn it. [LAUGH] 15:41 >> Okay, good sign. >> so. 15:43 My last question, and then we have some questions from our viewers 15:46 is, what's kind of the, the next frontier in design for you? 15:49 I mean, you're saying that you don't like flat design, and I 15:55 think a lot of people would agree with you. 15:59 Or at least you hate the term. 16:00 >> Yeah. 16:02 >> what, what do you think is kinda the next 16:03 I guess big challenge for web designers, I'm pretty sure. 16:05 >> I think it, I think it comes back to content again. 16:10 I think we're gonna have to be really smart about putting out multiple forms of 16:12 content because the devices that are gonna 16:17 access different sorts of content, could be anything. 16:20 I think we truly have to start thinking. 16:24 Although we probably all once laughed at the 16:26 fact that our refrigerator might have something in it. 16:28 >> Right. 16:30 >> That could be, I think we actually have to start thinking in terms of what 16:31 screens are gonna exist that don't exist now, 16:34 that are gonna need certain forms of content. 16:36 That aren't gonna make us have to go back to the 16:39 drawing board and rewrite tons of content at a later date. 16:40 I think it was Karen McGrane who's like, amazing content person, was saying that, 16:44 the best example of that is like tv listings. 16:49 So when you have a tv listing, some needs, some need a long form, others need short 16:53 form because they're going if you think of the 16:57 way you access it on your television it's restricted. 16:59 >> Hm. Yes. 17:01 >> If you're, if you're accessing it on 17:02 the web, you might have longer versions available. 17:03 So I think, I think the key is gonna 17:06 be in content management systems that don't exist right now. 17:08 They're gonna need to have a form of sending 17:12 different forms of content. 17:15 And that's not, I don't mean restricted in 17:16 terms of character where it will just break. 17:18 >> Right. 17:20 >> Actual different forms of content where the content 17:21 reformats with the most important thing at the top. 17:23 Or the most interesting thing at the top, or anything like that 17:26 where it actually restructures itself, rather 17:28 than just being truncated through characters. 17:31 >> Almost like using some sort of artificial intelligence. 17:33 Is that what you're discussing, or? 17:36 >> Yeah, some, some. I don't know. 17:38 I don't know. I don't have the answer. 17:40 I think we would all be very very rich if we did. 17:41 [LAUGH] But I think that's going to be the biggest challenge. 17:43 For us. 17:46 It won't necessarily come in, in form of design 17:47 cuz I think we're stripping back on that now. 17:49 And when, we're realizing that, asset creation maybe isn't the way forward. 17:51 >> Do you, do you think that has anything to do with, accessibility? 17:57 >> Yeah, huge part. >> Because I you know you're, 18:01 you're talking about smart appliances, and. 18:05 Sometimes it's hard to teach beginners the, the 18:08 good reasons behind forming, you know, well-structured HTML. 18:13 Why would you want to do that? 18:16 I mean, the browser renders it just fine if you, you don't. 18:17 >> Yeah. 18:20 >> Why do you have to use all these new tags, right. 18:20 And the example I always use is, yeah, 18:22 these, these far flung household appliances that you 18:24 know, can pull information down from the internet. 18:30 >> Mm-hm. 18:33 >> I've always imagined like, this blender that 18:33 could like, talk to you like Siri, you know. 18:36 And tell you, you know, all the different kinds of smoothies you can make. 18:38 And, and it needs to pull down 18:42 that information in some sort of structured format. 18:43 >> Yeah. 18:45 So that But that's interesting, I, I totally agree with 18:45 you, okay so we got a bunch of questions already. 18:48 >> Okay. >> This is good. 18:54 The first question says, what do you think about Fireworks? 18:56 Sarah mentioned having use it, used it before. 18:59 Do you still use it for anything? 19:02 >> No, I've actually just switched to using something 19:04 called Sketch, which is an app by Bohemian Coding. 19:07 It's super cheap, really, considering what a great app it is. 19:11 I think it's about 50 bucks. 19:14 And it does everything that, that Fireworks and Photoshop and 19:16 Illustrator would do, so its kind of a three in one program. 19:21 I used to be a Photoshop monkey for years. 19:24 Years like ten years of Photoshop and I recently switched to Sketch about 19:27 a month, maybe six weeks ago and I haven't really touched Photoshop since. 19:32 >> Wow. 19:36 >> Except for editing photos, which is what 19:36 is was meant for in the first place [LAUGH] 19:37 >> [LAUGH] Right, right. 19:39 [LAUGH] Well that's very cool. What's your opinion of skeuomorphism? 19:39 >> I used to love it. 19:46 I used to, I used to really enjoy designing for it. 19:48 >> I think everyone did. 19:51 >> But once you've done one too many leather stitches 19:52 too far and you start to lose the will to live. 19:54 I, I don't think it's a bad thing. 19:57 I think it's a, an interesting thing to look at the concepts of 19:59 mimicking, user interface design that mimics stuff 20:03 that you would use in real life. 20:06 I think some apps took it too far. Find Friends was like, 20:07 the most awful. [LAUGH] 20:11 >> That's the one I always pick out 20:13 too, because that doesn't exist in real life. 20:15 >> No. 20:18 >> Like, is that leather stitching and this map? 20:18 Even supposed to be, you know? 20:21 >> Yeah, that was an interesting one and I can't remember what 20:22 app it was that had wooden buttons in it, which I always loved. 20:24 >> Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. 20:28 >> I kind of love the idea of wooden buttons but, some things 20:30 take it too far but I think it, it's maybe about scaling back and 20:33 just looking at what, what can mimic stuff in real life that people would 20:36 then find easier from a UX perspective 20:40 rather than actually physically making it look similar. 20:42 >> Right. 20:45 >> As similar as having leather bound stuff and things. 20:45 >> So, so this is, an interesting one. 20:49 I'm actually personally, interested in this, as well. 20:51 Does Sarah have any thoughts that's you about designing for television screens? 20:54 >> Oh, 21:00 yes. 21:02 I actually pitched for a project for this that they never, they never did. 21:02 I pitched for a project for this company who 21:07 take Apple TVs, hack them, sell them back to hotel 21:10 chains, and then rebrand the kind of, when you 21:13 walk into a hotel and you see the welcome message. 21:16 >> Right. >> And stuff like that. 21:18 It was really interesting. What you have to do to do that. 21:19 The, the assets that you need to create. Completely alien DPI 21:22 versions of things that I've never dealt with. 21:27 >> Oh my gosh. 21:29 >> It was yeah, it's really interesting. 21:29 I was kind of sad that that never came off, cuz I used 21:32 a, a single template, and just recolored it for each hotel in the end. 21:34 But, that was a really interesting one because you had static 21:38 elements and then you had to design things that would change. 21:41 So, weather sections it would change so it was almost like bringing together 21:43 all the best parts of designing for iOS, but on one giant screen. 21:48 >> Right. 21:51 >> So it was like, having a utility app for weather in one section and 21:52 then having a, a rolling news feed on the other and then having other sections. 21:55 It was really, really interesting but, but really steep learning curve. 21:59 >> Well, maybe if those Apple television rumors ever 22:03 come true we'll all be designing for TVs again. 22:05 >> Let's hope so. 22:08 >> We'll see. So Edward says, love your glasses Sarah. 22:09 >> Well thanks, Edward. >> Other than Treehouse, 22:14 of course, how can a beginner get more involved in the industry? 22:17 >> Conferences. 22:23 I know that's probably a really cliche answer but I would say. 22:25 >> That's what I always say. 22:28 >> Getting involved in the conferences 22:29 and understanding that our industry is wonderful 22:31 in the sense of most of our networking, networking is not really networking. 22:34 But it happens in bars after conferences, or 22:39 it happens during coffee breaks at conferences. 22:42 Even if you're not a particularly confident 22:46 person I think learning how to just hold 22:48 yourself in a conference environment where you feel you can go up and talk to people. 22:50 Maybe people who you see online, see teaching Treehouse stuff. 22:54 Having the confidence, in a non-creepy way, to walk up and just say, 22:57 hey, you know, I really love this that you've put out or I'm really looking 23:03 to get into something. 23:08 One thing I have learnt is people really love 23:10 people who are clearly trying their hardest to do something. 23:13 So if you are a beginner and you're trying with all your might 23:17 to get into the industry or you're stuck on something, everyone kind of 23:20 takes you under their wing and really just looks after you and says, 23:24 look, have you've seen this resource, or have you seen this website or. 23:27 You've got this book. 23:31 But then, it's also a weird balance of learning when, to leave as well. 23:33 Otherwise, you end up that creepy guy who's,stood 23:38 next to everyone not knowing what to do. 23:40 >> Right, right. 23:42 Conferences, yeah. 23:44 Conferences are a wonderful place to, to network. 23:45 >> Well, I think, I think everybody wants to talk. 23:48 >> Yeah. 23:50 >> And that's the thing that nobody thinks 23:51 about is, you know, everybody wants to talk. 23:52 So llike, I find it really easy to go up to people. 23:53 I didn't used to, 23:57 but yeah if you just go up and talk to people, everybody's so nice. 23:58 >> Yeah, yeah definitely. 24:02 >> Like, nobody's going to bite your head off. 24:04 Alright so, Steve asks. 24:06 What sizes or break points do you design for when starting a new mobile design? 24:09 >> Okay so that's responsive design rather than actual fixed native stuff. 24:17 >> Yes. >> In terms of break 24:22 points, I don't really believe they exist sometimes. 24:24 So, they do, the standard ones exist. 24:28 >> Sure. 24:30 >> But then anything outside of that, I think 24:30 a break point is exactly what it says it is. 24:32 A break point should be when the design breaks and not a set size. 24:35 So, as long as you've designed in percentages, and 24:39 you can kind of do that thing that we will 24:41 do of pulling in the browser in and out, your 24:43 content will reformat to a certain point, if you've done 24:46 that properly. 24:49 It then becomes an, an issue of whether 24:49 you're gonna take something full screen, whether you're going 24:52 to remove it, whether you're gonna break that into 24:53 parts that are smaller, or that becomes the issue. 24:55 >> Right. 24:58 >> And normally that will happen at a breakpoint that's outside the normal ones. 24:59 Which are like the iPhone, iPad, other tablets, et cetera, et cetera. 25:04 So, my breakpoints are always a bit strange cuz they're 25:08 just where the design breaks and not actually a particular 25:11 set size. 25:14 >> Gosh, that's a really great way to think of it. 25:15 I don't think I've ever heard that before. 25:17 Maybe I have. 25:19 But, just thinking of it in terms of yeah, where the design breaks. 25:19 >> Yeah. To me it was just one of those things. 25:23 I, I found responsive design quite a hard 25:26 learning curve again because it was quite mathematical. 25:28 >> Yeah. 25:31 >> So, and I'd been doing iOS design for the, the entire time 25:31 that everyone was going, responsive design, 25:35 I was kind of that charlatan sitting 25:37 in my office [LAUGH] going, please, no one ask me about 25:39 it cuz I haven't even read the book or anything right now. 25:42 >> Right. 25:44 >> And then when I did dig into it, It just 25:44 made sense that break points shouldn't be, shouldn't be device points. 25:47 Otherwise, you're just designing for design specific. 25:51 >> Right. 25:54 You're defeating the purpose. 25:54 >> Break points and you're defeating the purpose of it. 25:55 So then, it just becomes well, break points should be where the design breaks. 25:56 >> Very cool. So Romain asks: 26:01 Do you have any advice for freelancers? 26:04 >> Get out of bed. Take your pajamas off. 26:09 Have a good shower. 26:12 [LAUGH] No, I'm being serious. That's the one thing 26:13 >> No. 26:15 >> I think is. >> I know, I know you're being serious. 26:15 That's why I'm laughing. 26:17 >> As freelancers, I think you get so comfortable with this 26:18 whole notion of I can just work at home in my pajamas. 26:21 I don't have to have a shower until 3:00 in the 26:25 afternoon, but I think that mindset is really dangerous to get into. 26:27 So, actually just getting up and having a normal routine like a normal 26:30 working person. 26:35 Or come out, I sometimes, if I'm feeling really like, ugh. 26:36 It's Monday morning or yeah. 26:39 I just take a walk round the, round the block and come back into my house 26:42 again and feel like oh, I've taken my walk to work and now I'm at work. 26:45 >> Right. 26:49 >> It's, I think it's more of a mindset thing. 26:49 If you're the sort of person who's gonna 26:51 get distracted by the latest Grand Theft Auto sitting 26:53 in the corner and wanting to play with that then you just have to change the way 26:55 that you have a mindset about work. 27:00 You just have to be aware that you're the sort of person who will naturally want to 27:02 gravitate off work and try and bring it back, every so often that, is a hard one. 27:05 Freelancing is, is tough, it's really tough. 27:10 >> I've found that having a separate physical space helps me work at home. 27:13 >> Yeah. 27:17 >> You know if, if he can do that, like that's really one of the greatest things 27:17 you can do for yourself, is just having a separate room, go in there, you work, and 27:21 when you come out, work's over. >> Yeah. 27:25 >> You know, I think. 27:27 >> Also, I think with working from home, 27:28 you have to be more aware of when you 27:31 do that thing where you're sitting in front 27:33 of your computer and, actually, you're not working anymore. 27:35 You've, you've gravitated towards Twitter or Facebook. 27:37 And you think because you've sat at your desk, you're working. 27:40 And it took me a while to, to understand when I 27:44 was actually just, what I thought was like even passively working. 27:46 It's not passively working. >> You're just, 27:49 you're just doing social media marketing. >> You just, yeah. 27:50 >> Yeah, totally. 27:52 >> You find yourself sat there and 27:52 you're like, actually I'm not working at all. 27:53 I should have a break and then come back. 27:56 It's understanding those kind of nuances of 27:58 design, of, of working from home, I think. 28:00 >> Absolutely. 28:04 So, Andy asks. 28:05 What was your thought process behind the 28:07 footer navigation on the You Know Who website? 28:10 Was it purely for aesthetics? 28:12 >> Hm, no. 28:15 I'll honestly answer, I quite liked it because it was different. 28:17 I wanted to think more mobile first concept and, and so it 28:21 was navigation that changes and reformats for iPhone beautifully and any other. 28:25 Mm-hm. 28:30 >> Any other phone or tablet. 28:31 So, it was me actually trying to experiment with the 28:33 whole notion of mobile first and then coming up to desktop. 28:36 And wondering whether people would, 28:39 would see or understand that the navigation was flipped. 28:41 It's just one of those things. 28:46 Was just trying to be different. 28:47 >> It seems to work. [CROSSTALK] 28:49 >> So. 28:50 >> I looked at it and I think it looks pretty nice. 28:50 >> Oh, thank you. [CROSSTALK] 28:52 >> But. >> So, that's all changing anyway. 28:53 [LAUGH] So, it's irrelevant. But oh, thank you. 28:54 Yeah, nice. It was just me trying to be different. 28:57 So, I think we only have a couple more questions here. 29:00 Oll, Ollie asks, You've had success 29:03 outside the web with Blush Bar. 29:07 Is there anything within the industry you want to challenge as a personal project? 29:10 I guess you should probably explain what Blush Bar is? 29:16 >> Okay, Blush Bar is my personal project. 29:18 It's actually a blow dry bar, which seems 29:21 so random, but I have my reasons behind it. 29:24 Repeat the last section of the question. 29:29 Sorry, so what? >> Ollie says, 29:30 is there anything within the industry you want to challenge as a personal 29:32 project? >> Oh I guess on a, broader level 29:36 I really wanna crack Ruby on Rails just because I really like the idea of, 29:42 of being able to fully design out and develop anything. 29:48 And I would really like to do the same with Objective C and Coco, to be honest. 29:53 >> Oh, Treehouse is a wonderful place to learn all of those things. 29:57 >> Yeah, it is. 30:00 >> [LAUGH] 30:01 >> True. 30:01 It's true, I've been working my 30:01 way through, actually on the [INAUDIBLE] course. 30:02 yeah, in terms of, of bigger industry stuff, I don't know, I have something in 30:07 the pipeline at the moment, but I'm keeping shh on it at the moment, but. 30:11 Yeah, there's, there's always. >> Understandable. 30:15 >> But there's always, that's the great thing about our industry though, right? 30:17 There's always a problem that anyone can solve. 30:19 Not just anyone 30:21 who's like seen as the head of their game in whatever they do. 30:22 There are problems are in our industry that, that 30:26 anyone can solve, whether you're a freelancer, whether you're 30:29 just starting out, there's ways of collaborating with people 30:31 that you meet at conferences who do have the skills. 30:33 That's what I like about our industry is 30:36 newbies can, can solve something that people who've 30:38 been in the industry for years have been 30:41 struggling because they've got fresh approach on it. 30:42 So I think anything is up for the grabs. 30:45 >> Very true. Okay. 30:48 Two more questions here. 30:49 >> Okay. 30:50 >> Going back to freelancing, is it honestly possible for most freelancers 30:51 to survive, so many jobs don't end up paying a living wage? 30:56 That's interesting. 31:01 >> So, this one is a really hard one. 31:03 I think actually, last week when I was patterns, we were talking about this. 31:06 We were saying that it's a really hard 31:12 thing for everyone who's been in the industry 31:13 a while to then think back to how it was when you didn't have any money. 31:15 Every person who's now seen as being someone who's good at 31:20 what they do has done that and has done those struggles. 31:23 But it's very hard 31:28 when you hear that whole follow your dream, everything will turn out okay. 31:28 It's hard to then think back to know there's, 31:33 you have to put in a lot of hard work. 31:36 And I think maybe the only way for some 31:39 people to start off on the freelancing path is 31:41 to start in a company first where you feel 31:43 that you have that cushion of the wage coming in. 31:45 And then do freelancing on the side if you can. 31:48 We're also talking about how wages 31:51 and, you know, if you are in a company where you've been there a 31:54 while and they can't raise your salary because of the economic climate we're in. 31:57 Try and barter to get days at home that you can work, therefore you can 32:01 work on side projects and you can 32:06 work on building up freelance portfolios and things. 32:08 I think it's really hard for people to just go, now I'm gonna be a 32:11 freelancer, nowadays because there's a lot of people who want to do it as well. 32:14 So I think it's a, it's a 32:18 really hard thing at the moment and it's 32:19 a hard thing to survive amongst everyone and be 32:23 seen and heard amongst everyone as well, but 32:25 I think there is enough work to go around. 32:27 So it's just putting yourself out there 32:30 marketing yourself learning a bit about personal 32:32 branding and how you can, how you're seen by other people is really important. 32:35 >> Absolutely so last question here is, what is the best or 32:39 your favorite project that you've designed? 32:45 >> Oh. 32:49 Interesting. 32:50 I'm gonna go with two cuz they are very different. 32:52 one, I was working on an internal 32:57 app for News International which was really interesting. 32:59 I haven't, I can't show any screenshots of it cuz it was an internal app. 33:03 But it was, it was really interesting because 33:06 it had to solve many problems about content. 33:08 And show who was maybe the best journalist for that week. 33:11 Who was really engaging on Twitter. 33:15 It pulled in lots of different social feeds. 33:17 So it meant designing tons of dashboards, which I've always wanted to design. 33:19 I think anyone who's a designer's always wanted to just get hold of a dashboard. 33:23 And it meant designing about 18 different dashboards. 33:27 That all had to have a similar look and feel that 33:30 did very, very different things, so that was like a dream project 33:34 for me that I worked on for a year. I was really, really lucky to do that. 33:36 Second one would probably be my side project back at home, because 33:41 the blow dry bar, which is really random, but what it meant 33:44 I could do is actually take everything that I'd learnt of, over 33:47 the ten years of being in the industry, and go back to. 33:51 If I didn't have any clients at all telling me 33:55 what to do, how would I design something like this. 33:57 So it took me back to doing print 34:00 work, branding work, websites, really basic website stuff. 34:02 But all without that kind of oppressive client coming down 34:06 on your shoulders saying no, no can we move that. 34:10 Ten pixels to the left yeah. 34:12 So that was great because it gave me complete creative freedom to go 34:15 back and go oh, I wonder if I could still do print work? 34:18 Or wonder if I could still brand something? 34:21 So, that was my, the favorite of this year. 34:23 >> Very cool stuff. 34:27 Well that's all the time we have for for today. 34:29 You are who on Twitter? >> Yeah, sazzy on Twitter. 34:33 >> So if we didn't get your question, go ahead and tweet to Sarah. 34:38 >> Yeah. 34:43 >> Sure she'd be happy to answer. 34:43 You're you're here at Treehouse because you're actually shooting a 34:45 course, can you tell us a little bit about that? 34:50 >> So, we, I just got finished shooting in here, today. 34:52 So I'm shooting a course for iOS designs, it's mobile app design. 34:56 It's a whole course about, we're actually designing a diary app. 35:01 So it takes you right from the start of planning and doing the 35:05 wireframes and writing certain documentation that 35:08 will help with developers, right through to. 35:11 Designing and exporting your artwork, so it's like a full course on 35:13 mobile app design. >> Very cool stuff. 35:18 Well, I'm sure we'll release that as soon as we possibly can. 35:20 It'll be coming very soon. 35:24 If you'd like to learn more about us and learn web design, web development mobile 35:27 business and so much more. You can check us out at teamtreehouse.com. 35:32 Thanks so much for watching and we'll see you real soon. 35:37 [MUSIC] 35:40

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