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No Such Thing as the Right Path with Anthony Culver
25:26 with TreehouseNetflix Sr. Software Engineer Anthony Culver discusses the trajectory that led him to where he is today.
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[MUSIC]
0:00
I would like to welcome up our
opening speaker Anthony Culver.
0:07
Anthony is a software engineer at Netflix
in the content engineering group.
0:11
A Chicago native and alumni of both Clark
Atlanta University and DePaul University.
0:17
Anthony has built a career focused on
back-end service and platform engineering.
0:23
As well as a data engineer building and
scaling numerous BI platforms,
0:28
data warehouses, and data pipelines.
0:33
He's also a father of three,
lover of music, movies, video games, and
0:37
a novice Raspberry Pi tinker.
0:42
Please welcome Anthony Culver.
0:44
>> Thank you so much for the introduction.
0:47
I'm super excited to be here.
0:49
Like I said, I'm Anthony, and
0:51
I wanna talk to you about my journey to
becoming a software engineer and how that
0:54
path may not have been as straightforward
as you might think it would be.
0:59
[COUGH] So if you have any questions, feel
free to drop them in the Q&A as you think
1:03
of them and
I will try to get through them at the end.
1:07
I should probably share my screen.
1:15
All right, so again,
my name is Anthony Culver.
1:26
I use he/him pronouns.
1:31
I'm currently the software engineer
in Netflix, I grew up in Chicago,
1:32
Clark Atlanta, DePaul.
1:37
And then just a couple of
interesting things about me,
1:38
I find peanut butter to
be absolutely disgusting.
1:42
And I just recently learned that most
people find that to be very odd.
1:45
And also a song I produced a few years
ago was used on the soundtrack of
1:50
a documentary.
1:54
So, get right to it.
1:55
Here's what I'm gonna discuss today.
1:59
I'm gonna talk about how and why I
decided to pursue a career in software
2:01
engineering, the various jobs I've had
throughout my career, what I learned from
2:06
those roles, and how those experience kind
of have gotten me to where I am today.
2:11
So, how did it all start?
2:18
So Cisco was actually
offering prep classes for
2:20
networking certifications in high schools.
2:23
[COUGH] And my high school happened
to be one of the pilot schools.
2:26
So we started just taking computers apart,
identifying their components,
2:30
reassembling them.
2:34
We did some basic HTML and
2:36
CSS before we kind of jumped right
into the networking material.
2:37
And I loved every second of it.
2:42
Everything was logical, it made sense.
2:45
I could physically see the results
of what we were doing.
2:47
And so I figured this would be
a cool thing to do for a living.
2:52
I mean I had to go to school forever,
2:55
which was probably my
biggest concern at the time.
2:57
And so I did the only thing that I knew
to do next, which was go to college for
3:01
computer science.
3:06
So I ended up at the University
of Illinois at Urbana Champaign.
3:10
So why did I do that?
3:16
So the the answer on paper is really
because it was close to home,
3:17
I got accepted super early and
state tuition was that cheap and
3:22
it was one of the top computer
science programs in the country.
3:26
But the reality was I was just lazy.
3:31
I didn't put a whole lot of effort into
it to research the schools and everyone
3:34
always talked about how great of a school
it was, and it is an excellent school.
3:38
They have all the resources you could
possibly need at the university and
3:43
I met some really incredible people
that I'm still friends with to this day.
3:47
[COUGH] On the flip side, I realized
I didn't actually want to be there.
3:51
Most of the people there were
from the Chicago and St.
3:57
Louis areas and a lot of people I went
to high school with they were they.
4:00
So it didn't really feel
like I left home and
4:04
I think that's what I
really was looking for.
4:06
But I also realized that I
personally needed more guidance and
4:08
direction because I didn't
know anything about anything.
4:12
And I was kind of fumbling my way
through trying to figure things out.
4:16
But this is what I thought
I was supposed to do.
4:20
You've finished high school,
you go to the best college you can,
4:23
you get a job after graduation, and
then you live happily ever after.
4:26
But that is not how it used
to [LAUGH] play out for me.
4:29
So I left Illinois and
I went to Clark Atlanta.
4:33
And I actually put some
thought into it this time.
4:37
And I figured out what I wanted and
really I just wanted to go to an HBCU.
4:39
I wanted to get away from home and
4:43
I wanted to go to a part of the country
that I was relatively unfamiliar with.
4:45
And so the great thing about HBCUs is its
faculty and staff all wanna see you win,
4:49
they're gonna push you to
be the best you can be in.
4:54
And that's something I really
didn't know I needed but I did.
4:58
And people also look at me kind
of weird when I say this, but
5:03
it It was also probably the most
diverse environment I've ever been in.
5:05
And this allowed me to be exposed to so
many people from so
5:09
many different walks of life and
prepare me really well for
5:12
some of the experiences
that I would have later.
5:16
So it was also the first time I was
away from home and living on my own and
5:20
it forced me to grow up, which again,
something that I personally really,
5:24
really needed.
5:28
On a less than positive note I was
also dealing with a lot of stress and
5:31
didn't really understand
what to do with that and
5:34
what it meant to take
care of my mental health.
5:37
I was taking way too many classes at one
time, I was taking classes that were
5:40
prerequisites for other classes
I was taking at the same time,
5:44
I was working almost a full time schedule.
5:47
At one point I was actually having
anxiety attacks almost every day.
5:50
But this was something I think I really
needed to experience and go through so
5:55
I would understand what that meant and
what it looked like later down the line.
5:59
So while I was in college,
I also did a few internships.
6:05
If you can get one,
6:08
they are a great way to not only build
your resume while you're learning but
6:09
give you an idea of what it would be like
to work in this field in the real world.
6:13
And sometimes that's getting experience
with enterprise tools that you wouldn't
6:18
use in college or boot camps.
6:23
Sometimes it's just learning that you
don't really wanna do a thing that you
6:25
think you wanna do.
6:29
And I did have one of those experiences.
6:30
I thought I wanted to go into networking,
got an internship with a networking team,
6:32
and realized I do not
wanna do this everyday.
6:36
Also the internships are usually paid,
some of them aren't.
6:41
Usually for
engineering internships you will get paid,
6:45
which is always a good thing,
especially while you're still learning.
6:47
But not all internships are created equal.
6:50
A lot of them do require you to be
enrolled in college degree programs.
6:54
Sometimes people will force interns to do
just irrelevant menial tasks just because
7:00
they feel like they can't.
7:05
And also most corporations will take on
interns with the goal of hiring them,
7:07
but not all of them do.
7:13
So again, your experience will vary.
7:15
Finding good internships is actually
kind of difficult sometimes.
7:18
So now we're gonna get into what
I've done so far in the workplace.
7:23
And so what you see here is just a list
of all the jobs I've had since I finished
7:32
college.
7:37
And the main thing that I wanna point
out here is that more than half of these
7:38
roles don't actually say anything
about software engineering.
7:43
And that's because I didn't start
out working as a software engineer
7:47
immediately.
7:50
In this role here at Cerner,
7:51
this was the first time I had
the job title of software engineer.
7:53
And this was about five
years into my career.
7:59
Eventually I would get promoted to senior
software engineer while I was there, but
8:04
I wasn't actually building software.
8:07
I was doing what would later
become known as data engineering,
8:10
that wasn't really a term people
used when I started there.
8:14
But, when I took that job I had no
idea what data warehousing was.
8:18
But this was a great company.
8:23
My team was amazing,
I still keep in touch with them,
8:27
I meet with a lot of them to this day.
8:30
And I really loved the work I was doing.
8:33
So it actually wasn't until I
started in Mailchimp that I
8:36
was working as a software engineer on a
team that was actually building software.
8:40
And this didn't happen for
almost 12 years into my career.
8:45
And this is not at all how I
thought this was gonna play out,
8:49
especially when I was in high school and
bright eyed and bushy tailed and
8:53
ready to go, just to write code.
8:57
But everything happens for a reason.
9:00
And there's just so much that I learned
in those non-engineering roles to help me
9:02
prepare for the engineering
roles that I would have later.
9:06
So what was it that I
was actually doing and
9:11
what kind of technologies was I using and
things like that?
9:13
So this is by no means a comprehensive
list of the things that I used or
9:17
learned in those roles.
9:21
But what I do wanna highlight
here is the fact that even
9:23
in the non-engineering roles,
I was using tools and
9:26
technologies that would come
into play later down the line.
9:29
And so looking at this every single row
required me to use something that I
9:34
still use to this day.
9:39
Another thing to note is that with
with each role, the number of those
9:42
technologies kind of began to increase cuz
I was using more of them in each role.
9:45
And I'm still using a lot of those things
that I learned even in my first role
9:51
out of college.
9:55
So what's the point?
9:57
Why did I just kinda go through in
this rundown and explain all this?
9:59
What is it that I'm trying to convey here?
10:03
Well, it's just that,
10:07
it doesn't matter how you go about
becoming a software engineer.
10:08
It is completely irrelevant.
10:12
There's no right way to do this.
10:13
There's no preferred method.
10:15
There's no preferred path for
you to take to become a software engineer.
10:18
It doesn't matter if you're self-taught,
10:21
it doesn't matter if you
went through a boot camp.
10:23
It doesn't matter if you went to
college and studied computer science.
10:25
What matters is what you
learned along the way, and
10:29
how you utilize that knowledge
to get to the next step.
10:32
The only thing that matters
is just growing and
10:35
getting better every step of the way.
10:38
I went down this, quote unquote,
traditional path, and
10:41
it was still years before I started
working as a software engineer.
10:45
I know people that have computer
science degrees that have
10:50
never worked as software engineers.
10:53
[COUGH] Could I have
done things differently?
10:55
Sure, a hindsight is 20/20.
10:58
Would it have changed anything?
11:01
Maybe, maybe not.
11:04
But again, that doesn't really matter.
11:06
So that being said,
what did I learn along the way that I feel
11:09
made me a better engineer and
kinda got me to where I am?
11:14
So the first thing is that writing code
is just one part of being an engineer.
11:19
There's so
many other things you have to do.
11:25
You have to learn to
communicate clearly and
11:27
effectively to not only other engineers,
but executives, end users, stakeholders.
11:29
And you have to be able to do this
well both verbally and in writing.
11:35
You have to learn how to debug,
test, deploy, and monitor your code.
11:40
You have to know how to choose
the right tools for the job.
11:45
You have to understand
how to design a software,
11:48
both at a feature level and
at a system level.
11:52
Also learning how to learn,
I would say it's probably one
11:55
of the most important and valuable
things that I picked up along the way.
11:59
Things are always changing,
constantly changing in this field.
12:04
And there's always something new to learn,
12:08
there's something that you've
just never encountered before.
12:10
And so for me, learning how I learned
most efficiently, allowed me to be able
12:13
to pick up enough of the core concepts
of new technologies quick enough.
12:19
To be able to continue moving forward
with whatever task was in front of me.
12:23
Another thing I found to be really
helpful is doing the things that no
12:30
one else wants to do.
12:35
It'll get you brownie points with your
team and leadership, and things like that,
12:36
but it also helps you to learn more
about the things that you work on.
12:41
People don't want to do these things
because they're usually very tedious and
12:44
repetitive tasks.
12:50
But they typically lean heavily
on the fundamentals of whatever
12:52
the thing is that you do.
12:56
But working on those tasks is a great
way to get familiar with what you need
12:58
to know to do your job.
13:03
And also everything in
technology is related.
13:04
Everything builds on the fundamentals,
so even if you're not working on
13:07
the shiny new framework or
the coolest features, you're still gaining
13:12
valuable experience that you will use and
you will need eventually.
13:17
Last but not least,
diversity of perspectives is so
13:22
important to a high
performing engineering team.
13:26
If you're a person of color,
if you're a woman,
13:30
or you identify as a member of any
underrepresented group in this field,
13:33
you will often find yourself being the
only person that looks like you in a room.
13:37
And you may be the only person
that didn't go to college and
13:42
studied computer science.
13:45
But the thing to keep in mind is, that is
what makes you the most valuable person in
13:47
that room B\because you're gonna approach
everything with a different perspective.
13:50
And that will get other people to start
questioning things they've always done in
13:54
a certain way, and
that's gonna make everyone better.
13:58
And that's ultimately going to result
in a team building a better and
14:01
more inclusive products.
14:06
And so now I just wanna
leave you with a few things.
14:08
This is not an easy job to be in, but
14:13
it also isn't impossible to do and
be successful.
14:16
Anybody can do this.
14:21
We're not doing brain surgery.
14:24
It's a skill.
14:26
And just like any other skill you
dedicate time to practicing and
14:27
developing this skill,
you will continue to grow and get better.
14:31
Aside from the technical challenges,
14:35
there's a world of other challenges that
are presented to those of us belonging
14:38
to these underrepresented
groups in this field.
14:43
Again, if you're a person of color,
if you're a woman.
14:46
You're someone who did not go to
a specific set of colleges and
14:48
studied computer science, you're going
to walk into a lot of situations where
14:52
people immediately think less of you.
14:57
In some cases, people may just flat out
tell you that you don't belong there, or
14:59
that you're not good enough to be there.
15:03
And you'll have those bad days when
you start to believe that yourself.
15:05
But this is why finding a community of
people that you identify with is so
15:09
important.
15:13
And one of the things that I did was,
15:14
I made the mistake of trying
to do everything on my own.
15:16
And this is such a different journey and
such a different and unfamiliar
15:20
experience that is not one of those
things you can really just figure it out.
15:25
And so having a community
of people to lean on and
15:30
to also share those experiences with,
has made a world of difference.
15:32
So make sure you go find those people.
15:37
Organizations like Treehouse, for example.
15:41
DevColor, Women who Code, Techqueria,
Black Code Collective, they're all
15:44
out there, and they are all great places
to go and be a part of those communities.
15:50
Also, working in this field can open
a lot of doors that have historically
15:55
been closed to a lot of us in those
underrepresented communities in tech.
16:00
We're able to live places and
provide things for our families,
16:04
and start businesses, and live
the types of lives that our parents and
16:08
grandparents probably never
could have even imagined.
16:12
So just stick with it, push through
the hard times, go be incredible.
16:15
And just share your experiences with the
next group of software engineers that come
16:21
after you so they don't have to experience
the same challenges that you did.
16:26
So, for sure if there are any questions,
16:34
But if not, Wait,
there are some questions here.
16:41
So how old are you now?
16:53
You said that after college you spent
a lot of time in previous jobs.
16:55
Do you really love your current job?
16:59
What's your further goal?
17:01
Did you reach job you trained?
17:02
So now I am 37, I'll be 38 in September.
17:06
Do I love my current job?
17:13
I do.
17:14
Part of it is I love the work that I do,
I'm somebody that loves solving problems.
17:17
And so this is a great field to be
in if you love solving problems.
17:22
Also, I work for Netflix,
which is actually kinda cool.
17:27
It's always fun when you get to work for
17:33
a company that makes a product
that you use on a regular basis.
17:36
So I do love my current job.
17:41
It's like any other job,
you have good days, you have bad days,
17:45
but overall I get up and
I enjoy the work that I do.
17:50
In terms of further goals, right now,
honestly, I'm just learning.
17:54
There's a lot that I have not done,
cuz I've spent most of my time as a data
18:00
engineer and
I'm working more on backend services now.
18:05
So just being in that field and
working on in a different industry.
18:08
Being in film and entertainment now and
working with the streaming service.
18:15
I'm working at a different scale now.
18:22
That presents a different
set of challenges.
18:26
So that's been fun.
18:27
And would I call it a dream job?
18:31
Not necessarily.
18:34
And I think part of it
is just my perspective.
18:37
Some people live to work and
I work to live, so I enjoy my job.
18:40
But at the end of the day it's a job.
18:47
It's not something that I would
necessarily dream about, but like I said,
18:49
I enjoy it and I'm happy doing.
18:54
So, let's see.
18:56
Let me start down here at the bottom.
19:02
I wanna pursue a career in cybersecurity,
how would I start?
19:06
I do not know much about cybersecurity.
19:10
But, well, again, kinda going back to a
point that I mentioned earlier of finding
19:13
communities, reaching out and
finding people that work in that field.
19:18
Whatever you wanna do,
whatever area you wanna go into,
19:22
that is always the first
place I would start.
19:25
Find somebody,
just doing what you wanna do.
19:28
Reach out to them, talk to them.
19:30
Find out how they got there and
kinda go from there.
19:31
So, what would be your suggestion
on learning how to learn?
19:37
I think that would be different for
everyone.
19:42
A good example is a lot of people
like watching YouTube videos.
19:45
I don't learn well like that.
19:48
For me what I ended up doing was coming
up with a really small project that I
19:51
could build with anything, and
I would take that project,
19:56
and if I found something
new that I wanted to learn,
20:02
I would try to recreate that
project using that technology.
20:05
So if it was some sort of like ETL tool,
20:09
I think the project I used
was streaming Twitter data.
20:12
Just I would pick a random topic,
stream tweets from that topic.
20:18
And I would store it in
some sort of database and
20:22
build some kind of reports on top of it.
20:26
And so doing that was generic enough,
but it was small enough that I
20:29
was able to just kind of quickly
do that in new technologies.
20:34
So, Let's see the next question.
20:38
How can I get hired at a well
known company like Netflix?
20:46
So one thing I will say is that,
if that's your goal,
20:52
is to work at a big company and one of
the big tech companies, then go for that.
20:57
Talk to people that work there.
21:03
Figure out what their
interview process is like.
21:07
Figure out what they're working on.
21:10
The things that are important for
engineers at that company and
21:12
focus on learning those things.
21:16
But I would also say, don't get bent out
of shape if it doesn't happen right away.
21:18
Because the interview process,
for instance,
21:24
software engineers is really,
really difficult.
21:27
And it's a whole another skill that you
have to develop as a software engineer.
21:31
And so that's something we could spend
an entire day talking about as well.
21:37
So like I said I would start there.
21:44
Figure out what that
company is looking for.
21:47
Work on those things.
21:50
And then from there start
on interview preparation,
21:51
which looks like one
of the next questions.
21:55
Do you have any tips for job interviews?
21:57
There are a number of groups and
websites and
22:01
all kinds of things that people
use to prep for those interviews.
22:05
I would say for me, system design is
probably one of the toughest things to do.
22:11
Because you can't just really
solve a problem like that, right?
22:16
You have to have another
person to work with and
22:19
do mock interviews and things like that.
22:22
There are other sites that
allow you to do that.
22:25
Again, finally, communities of people.
22:28
People will volunteer to help you do that.
22:30
In terms of the other parts of it, it's
a lot of understanding data structures and
22:33
algorithms.
22:37
So there are websites like Hacker Rank,
Leetcode.
22:38
I personally I'm a huge
fan of Interview Cake.
22:41
There's another, algoexpert.com.
22:46
Those are all really good sites.
22:49
Some of them require subscriptions.
22:51
So you have to actually pay for them.
22:55
But some of them like Interview Cake,
for example,
22:57
will refund your money if you
don't end up getting a job.
23:00
So those are definitely good ways to prep.
23:04
Well, communities that support
beginners and motivate to learn.
23:09
So all the ones I mentioned
earlier are great.
23:15
The fact that you're here and
you know about Treehouse.
23:20
Treehouse is a great community.
23:22
The other thing I will say is,
once you start to get connected with some,
23:27
when you get connected with one
community you'll start finding others.
23:31
Local meetups are a good place to
just kind of go and find people.
23:35
Not necessarily the meetups themselves,
but just finding people.
23:40
Connecting with people.
23:45
Asking questions.
23:46
And trying to, like I said,
just even asking someone that,
23:49
just finding people that are working at
places, doing things that you wanna do.
23:53
Reach out to them.
23:59
Ask them if they'd be open
to having a conversation.
24:00
If nothing else,
you get a little bit more perspective.
24:04
They may be able to introduce
you to somebody else rather.
24:07
But I would definitely say just finding
people is definitely key for that.
24:09
C, the age restrictions on top to
start a career as a developer?
24:17
No, I know people that started
when they were teenagers.
24:24
I know people that started in their 50s,
60s, in some cases.
24:30
So don't ever feel like it's too late or
24:34
even too early in some cases to
start in trying to pursue that.
24:38
Have you had a mentor to you that has
been a big influence on your growth?
24:48
Yes, I have.
24:53
Some of them have been previous managers.
24:55
Some of them have been coworkers.
24:57
Some are people that
I've never worked with.
24:59
But to be honest, a lot of them don't
actually know they're my mentors.
25:02
They are people that I keep in touch
with and I talk to them regularly.
25:06
And I learned from them.
25:10
But that is also very, very helpful.
25:13
Having a mentor,
I would probably say is necessary.
25:16
And so it's just to just get another
perspective from someone else as well, so.
25:20
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