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Unconscious Bias in the Tech Industry with Valerie Osei
28:36 with TreehouseValerie Osei examines ways to stay educated on cultural practices around diversity & inclusion and what types of questions you can ask around workplace culture.
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[MUSIC]
0:00
Hello, everyone.
0:04
My name is Ryan Carson.
0:05
I'm the co-founder and CEO of Treehouse.
0:07
It is lovely to see you
all at this online event.
0:09
I have a pleasure of welcoming up our
next speaker, which I'm so excited about.
0:14
Valerie Osei is a Front End Software
Engineer based in Toronto Ontario.
0:19
She enjoys building the web and
bringing building big ideas, and
0:24
bringing them to life through technology.
0:28
She has a passion for solving problems and
0:30
using technology to make
people’s lives better.
0:33
She is always eager to talk about
the latest trends in software development.
0:36
And as a dedicated lifelong learner,
please welcome Valerie.
0:41
>> Hi everyone,
I hope you guys can hear me,
0:46
I'm just gonna share my
screen with all of you.
0:48
Okay, so as Ryan was saying,
my name is Valerie Osei.
0:52
And before I start, I just wanna
thank all of you for coming on with
0:55
me today to listen to me speak where
I can share some knowledge with you.
1:00
And hopefully shed some light on
Unconscious Bias in the Tech Industry.
1:06
Okay, so Ryan kinda did a really
good job of introducing me.
1:14
So I won't spend too much time on this.
1:17
But I work as
a Front End Software Developer.
1:20
Initially started coding on my own and
I also took
1:22
a computer science course in high
school that kind of picked my interest.
1:25
And then from there, I kind of
decided to make a career transition.
1:30
After I completed my undergraduate at uft,
I thought,
1:34
I'm more into this coding stuff,
let me see what I can do with it.
1:37
And my reason for
1:42
being here today is because I love
to share knowledge with people.
1:42
And I also really love giving
back to this Tech Community.
1:46
Because it's constantly growing it's so
huge and it's just got so much for
1:48
all of us to learn.
1:52
So, today I'm gonna be sharing some
insights with you all on Unconscious Bias
1:56
in the Tech Industry.
2:00
And I'll be shedding some light on how
we can frame our questions when we're
2:02
approached with situations where we feel
we've either been impacted by unconscious
2:06
bias, or we've projected our own
unconscious bias sees onto others.
2:10
So first off, what is unconscious bias?
2:16
Many of us have likely heard
this term used in one way or
2:19
another to describe a certain situation or
micro aggression of some kind.
2:23
And it's often used interchangeably
with cognitive bias.
2:28
Which basically refers to how we as human
beings create shortcuts in our minds
2:32
to process information.
2:37
So I have just a quick quote here from
Warren Buffett, which states that,
2:39
what the human being is best at doing
is interpreting all new information so
2:43
that their prior
conclusions remain intact.
2:48
So I think we can all
kind of safely attest to
2:51
this where we have our
preconceived notions and
2:54
we use those as points of reference
to consume new information.
2:58
So, essentially what we're dealing with
is, and I'm sure most of us are aware
3:06
of this at this point is that, the tech
industry has seen years and years of bias.
3:11
And this has often been attributed
to the socio economic and
3:16
historical contexts where certain
roles were gaining popularity.
3:20
And now, the legacy of that is that we're
dealing with a lot of roles that aren't
3:24
being filled with diverse
with diverse candidates.
3:29
And as a result, we're dealing with a
problem that has been swept under the rug,
3:33
but is having very clear and
adverse effects.
3:37
So I wanted to take some time to kind
of highlight a few of the types of
3:42
Unconscious Bias that exists.
3:46
These aren't the only types but I thought
they were relevant for today's talk.
3:48
The first one that I have
is called the Halo Effect.
3:52
And basically, it refers to when we place
someone on a pedestal after learning
3:56
something impressive about them.
4:00
So if you can think of a time or
4:02
maybe you heard that someone graduated
from Harvard Law or so and so
4:04
is going to medical school,
immediately we get this reaction.
4:09
Where we think of that person
as being superior in skill and
4:14
intelligence without actually
diving deeply into what those
4:18
skills are whether or
not that person actually can perform.
4:23
And then the next one I have here is what
is called the Availability Heuristic.
4:27
And this is where we find that
we're favoring ideas that
4:33
come most easily to mind.
4:37
So this is often based on the frequency of
occurrence of certain events in our life.
4:39
Or perhaps, if there's a particular
situation that happened and
4:45
it left an indelible mark on us or
a very impactful impression on us.
4:50
We often reference these
experiences when we're
4:55
faced with new information as
a way to process that information.
4:59
And then I have here as well
Confirmation or Implicit Bias.
5:04
So these terms are often used
interchangeably with unconscious bias.
5:07
And can also be used as sort
of an umbrella to classify or
5:12
under which the other types
of biases can be classified.
5:16
So this is where we're looking to confirm
what we already think or believe.
5:20
And, we can safely say that all
of us have certain beliefs or
5:24
certain ways that we live our lives,
certain viewpoints that we hold that
5:28
inform how we process
the information around us.
5:33
So we take the time to dissect
Unconscious Bias real briefly,
5:37
we can identify a couple of PROS.
5:41
For one, Unconscious Bias does allow us
to process a bulk of information quickly,
5:43
and there are situations where
this would be beneficial.
5:48
Sometimes we don't need all the details.
5:51
We don't need to know a situation
at the granular level.
5:53
Sometimes we just need the little pieces
we need to make an informed decision.
5:56
But of course, there are situations
where this can have a negative impact.
6:02
If we take the year 2020 as an example,
6:07
we've been presented with an unprecedented
time and constant new information
6:10
that's being presented to us and
then relied and then re presented to us.
6:16
So we're being given so
much new information that if we rely on
6:21
unconscious bias to
process this information,
6:24
we're likely going to be filtering
out a lot of essential detail.
6:27
And this essentially,
6:32
prevents us from thoroughly evaluating
the evidence that is presented to us.
6:34
And will inevitably lead
to huge errors in judgement
6:39
when we're making complex decisions.
6:43
So and this is why it is a huge problem
that we need to start facing more
6:45
directly.
6:49
So with Unconscious Bias,
comes this dilemma of diversity where,
6:54
if we kind of pretend that it doesn't
exist, we're inevitably gonna be
6:58
facing the elephant in the room which
is the fact that we are dealing with
7:03
a lot of tech teams and tech
workspaces that aren't diverse enough.
7:08
And you're also dealing with a lot of
large tech companies that prefer to sweep
7:14
the problem under the rug or
7:18
just not disclose numbers that pertain to
their diversity and inclusion efforts.
7:20
And then this is where of course we
can think to the mostly white and
7:26
mostly male majority that is
affecting a lot of tech workspaces.
7:30
And unfortunately, what this ends up
doing is it excludes other groups from
7:35
having a seat at the table.
7:40
And this, of course also prevents
companies from tapping into
7:43
diverse markets.
7:46
If you can think about the fact that we
have teams that are making decisions on
7:47
products, on various types of software,
7:51
if those teams do not comprise diverse
members, then you're going to end up in
7:53
a situation where they feel like
they've covered all their bases.
7:57
But they're actively excluding others
who fit a different narrative.
8:01
And of course, this causes minorities
to feel like they do not belong.
8:06
I myself can attest to this and
8:10
I'm sure many of you listening
right now can attest to this.
8:11
We're facing being in a role where we
don't see enough people that look like us,
8:14
and sometimes we question like,
should I be here?
8:19
Do I belong here?
8:22
Is this a place that can
be beneficial to me?
8:22
So, I also want to take
some time to share results
8:29
from a report that was
conducted by trust radius.
8:34
This report was disseminated back
in September of this year, so
8:40
some pretty recent results which
basically break down the experiences of
8:44
marginalized individuals
within the tech industry.
8:49
And what it did was it surveyed
about 1200 people globally,
8:53
6% of which were Canadian.
8:57
And it kind of went over questions
that pertain to what they may be
8:59
experiencing in the tech industry.
9:04
65% of respondents of colour overall,
they do see an increase
9:07
in diversity in the tech industry
compared to 58% of white respondents.
9:12
And then, generally, there has been an
increase in Canadian initiatives focused
9:20
on diversity and
inclusion in the tech space.
9:24
And these initiatives have been
pointed towards combating racism and
9:27
breaking down barriers as a way to close
the gap between certain groups and
9:33
access to the tech industry overall.
9:38
There also has been a general
increase in funding to support
9:42
black Canadian entrepreneurs.
9:44
And this has actually been a huge leap,
9:46
which has allowed the greater population
to support black owned business.
9:48
And it's also Given rise to
access that black Canadian
9:53
entrepreneurs have where otherwise
they may have been excluded.
9:57
Now, resources are being reallocated so
the playing field can be leveled.
10:02
And of course, this is wonderful progress
overall, but there is still a lot of
10:07
concern over the lack of diversity in
various areas of the tech industry.
10:12
Even though we are seeing
an acknowledgement of a need to reallocate
10:16
resources so that other minority
groups can feel included,
10:20
we're also still seeing that
roles are generally being filled
10:24
by certain groups and
not being filled by others.
10:28
67% of respondents also reported
that less than a quarter of their
10:32
leadership is made up of people of color.
10:35
So this, of course, is a problem.
10:37
We've got people at higher levels of
a company who have a huge impact on
10:39
decision-making, but unfortunately,
10:43
they're making decisions based
on their own experiences.
10:46
And inevitably,
10:49
the experiences of people of color
get left out of that conversation.
10:50
Less than half also reported that they
have a dedicated department that is
10:56
focused on diversity and
inclusion efforts.
11:00
Trust rate is to take into
account that this could
11:04
be naturally attributed to the fact
that smaller companies may not have
11:07
as many resources as larger
companies do when it comes to this.
11:11
So of course, this brings into question
some other ideas where maybe we need to
11:15
find alternatives to allow smaller
companies to have the resources to
11:20
implement diversity and inclusion efforts
the same way a larger company might.
11:24
So we kinda wanna start thinking
about how we can avoid this dilemma.
11:32
So there are a few ways.
11:37
For one, being objective in how we explain
occupational requirements in job ads and
11:40
job descriptions and focusing on them as
being genuine requirements to perform
11:45
the actual job rather than getting hung
up on where someone went to school or
11:51
whether or not they have a degree.
11:56
In addition to that,
12:00
we want to start thinking about the use
of language in job descriptions.
12:01
So stop using words that skew a job
ad to only one group of applicants.
12:06
This one's a bit tricky because,
of course,
12:11
it does play into human psychology a bit,
and that's not an area that I'm versed in.
12:14
But it is something that is important for
12:18
us to think about because
perhaps without knowing it,
12:20
we've used language to describe
a candidate that is inherently biased.
12:24
And then I also have here,
12:30
we wanna be able to incorporate technology
into workflows with diversity in mind.
12:32
This is gaining popularity now especially
because we are in a technological age and
12:38
more so because most of us
are working virtually at this point.
12:44
And the virtual world is gaining much more
prevalence given the times that we're in.
12:48
So you have more companies that are
starting to consider ways in which they
12:54
can fill the gaps and technology has
stepped in to sort of play that role.
12:59
So speaking about tech,
I kind of figured I'd cite a few examples
13:05
of technology solutions that
are attempting to attack the problem.
13:11
So we have a few here and
basically the focus is,
13:17
could be anywhere from educating employees
on the experiences of diverse individuals
13:20
that are outside of themselves,
fully integrated anti-racism tools.
13:26
And also in some cases,
collecting data from your specific team or
13:31
company that can be used in an analytical
way to develop a customized action plan.
13:35
So you can directly address issues of
unconscious bias that may be taking place
13:40
within your own four walls.
13:45
And then of course,
the last one down here,
13:47
we have Diverst which is basically
they run on the premise that employees
13:49
who feel included are more likely
to deliver with greater quality.
13:53
So this doesn't just benefit
the affected groups.
13:57
This benefits everyone and that's why
it's such an important thing to consider.
14:00
Even if you've never thought
about it previously, you wanna
14:03
start looking at ways that you can make
everyone feel like they have a place.
14:06
Of course,
how can we start a conversation and
14:14
what types of questions can we ask when
we're thinking about unconscious bias?
14:17
First off, before we do get
into our line of questioning,
14:23
it's important that we hold
our own selves accountable.
14:25
It's likely that we've already
made assumptions about a person or
14:29
a situation at a given time
without even realizing it.
14:32
And this is where in order for
us to start asking questions,
14:35
we need to know what we we're
asking questions about.
14:39
And these assumptions can often be
based on a person's style of dress,
14:42
their skin color, their accent,
whether or not they speak with
14:47
an accent according to you, and
also whether or not they have a family or
14:51
kids or their marital status,
etc, etc, etc, the list goes on.
14:56
And essentially, we in many ways
are defaulted to reacting to a person or
15:01
to feeling comfortable around a person,
15:05
depending on how closely they
resemble what we're comfortable with.
15:07
So if we hear someone speaking with
an accent that's unfamiliar to us,
15:12
that can inherently have an impact on how
we process that person's way of speaking,
15:16
the assumptions we make about their
intelligence, their fluency in English.
15:20
We could literally just talk about
this particular thing all day, but
15:24
it does have a negative impact because
we are actively either including certain
15:28
people arbitrarily or excluding others
without really knowing who they are.
15:33
So we want to look within ourselves and
start thinking all I know about this
15:40
person is what I know about
this particular person.
15:44
Be objective in how you process
meeting someone for the first time.
15:48
And start to ask yourself,
what do I really know about this person or
15:55
situation?
15:59
Look at the facts, rather than
filling in your gaps of knowledge with
16:00
assumptions that you made based on
what color the sky was that day.
16:04
And you also wanna make sure that if
there are assumptions you've made,
16:10
be intentional about
identifying those assumptions.
16:14
Sometimes that can be difficult because
the way the human brain works and
16:18
the way we've had to adapt to
processing new information,
16:21
we're constantly making assumptions
to get through the day.
16:24
And that's just how it works.
16:27
We have to save time.
16:28
So when framing your questions,
16:31
you wanna build a solid foundation
starting with facts only.
16:34
And then think about what
your motivation might be.
16:38
Why is this important to you?
16:42
What are you trying to achieve?
16:44
And then be clear and specific about who
or what your question is directed to.
16:46
If you faced a situation where someone
made an offensive comment at work,
16:52
perhaps you've been microaggressed upon.
16:55
You wanna start thinking okay,
who am I gonna address about this issue?
16:58
Do I wanna go to my colleague
directly who offended me?
17:00
Do I wanna talk to my reporting manager?
17:03
Do I wanna go to HR?
17:05
And that will help you to
form sort of a paradigm for
17:06
how you go about this line of questioning.
17:09
It's not easy and by no means am I
implying that it is, but this is where you
17:12
start to build a foundation for
how you're going to address the issue.
17:15
So of course, we have the idea
of interviews that come to mind.
17:22
Many of us are either in the interviewing
process, we aspire to be in
17:25
the interviewing process for
a certain role in the tech industry.
17:29
Or we've been in
the interviewing process and
17:32
have reflected on how those interviews
went, whether that was good or bad.
17:34
And one thing that often comes up is the
opportunity to ask questions at the end of
17:39
an interview.
17:43
So be on the lookout for questions during
your interview that center on company
17:44
culture or
the type of dynamic that you work best in.
17:49
Even if this isn't touched
upon during the interview,
17:52
it may be in the job description for
the role you're going for.
17:55
And you can zero in on that and
take the opportunity to clarify or
17:57
to ask questions to the interview
regarding what their company culture
18:02
actually is, and
what a culture fit actually means.
18:06
And from there, you can kind of assess.
18:11
Is this a situation
you're comfortable with?
18:12
>> This is essentially an opportunity for
you to express how important it is that
18:15
you work for a company that concerns
itself with diversity and also actively
18:20
seeks to bring up difficult conversations
in order to create a safe space.
18:24
Is your company or your team or
18:29
your management willing to put themselves
on the line so that you can feel included?
18:30
And when we think about
fighting unconscious bias and
18:38
participating in this concerted effort, we
wanna look at the removal of educational
18:41
backgrounds from the hiring model.
18:46
And some companies have already
committed to doing this.
18:48
We also wanna look into the use of gender
neutral language in job descriptions.
18:52
Again, this kind of plays more on
human psychology where we find certain
18:56
groups are more prone to certain
types of language over other groups.
19:00
And without going too deeply into that,
it's essentially a situation where you
19:06
want to make sure that you acknowledging
that in 2020, gender is not binary.
19:10
It's not a binary concept.
19:14
It is a spectrum and we want to make sure
that regardless of where one falls on that
19:16
spectrum, they feel included and
19:20
they feel like they are being given access
to an area that they want to be a part of.
19:22
In addition to that,
19:29
we have the use of blind AI technology
to source candidates without bias.
19:30
Now, this of course,
19:35
comes with the fact that it all depends
on who's building this technology.
19:36
Technology is only good as good
as the human minds behind it.
19:41
If we have tech teams and
companies that lack diversity and
19:44
that are building this technology,
at some point,
19:48
it's going to be discovered that certain
groups are being left out of having
19:51
access to that technology in
a way that it can Benefit them.
19:56
And then of course, we wanna be able to
use our conscious knowledge to override
20:03
our unconscious default settings.
20:07
So rather than relying on past
experiences 100% of the time,
20:09
we can rely on our past
experiences some of the time.
20:13
But also make room for new information to
override some of that arbitrary knowledge
20:17
that we've gathered based
on our own personal bias.
20:21
So when we think about setting ourselves
up for success, this is where we start to
20:28
think about ways in which we
can hold ourselves accountable.
20:32
How we participated in situations where
we projected unconscious biases unto
20:35
a certain group of people.
20:40
Have we kept quiet in situations where we
could have spoken up about unconscious
20:42
biases that have affected other people.
20:46
We all have a role to play in this,
and it's important for
20:48
us to be as self-aware as possible.
20:51
And we also wanna understand that
unconscious bias exists everywhere and
20:53
it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
20:57
It's a symptom of how
the human mind works and
21:00
the world that we're living in right now.
21:03
This point here is a tough one,
I do not touch on this one lightly.
21:07
But of course, don't be afraid to bring up
diversity in your next job interview or
21:11
your next meeting, provided you
have the opportunity to do so, and
21:15
provided that you are in
the mental states to do so.
21:18
This isn't easy for all us, sometimes
we have traumatic experiences that
21:21
would get unveiled
through this engagement.
21:26
So it's not easy for us to do it.
21:29
But if you feel like it's
something you can do,
21:31
I definitely encourage you to do so.
21:33
Of course, it is gonna be uncomfortable,
and that's okay, because it's normal,
21:36
it's by design.
21:40
And if the thought of discussing
diversity is uncomfortable for you,
21:43
there may be a reason as to why.
21:46
You wanna think to yourself,
does your company provide a safe space for
21:50
these conversations to be had?
21:53
And is there someone in particular that
you can go to if you have a grievance or
21:55
an issue, and that you want addressed?
21:59
Well, just a few Canadian companies
I wanted to cite briefly.
22:04
Scotiabank has confessed
that they are committed to
22:08
removing education from the hiring model.
22:13
And instead,
22:17
what they wanna do is start relying on
the job experiences of their candidates.
22:18
We also have is Hispanotech.ca.
22:23
And through the use of technology,
22:25
they're looking to address unconscious
bias in their recruiting practices.
22:27
And then we have Hubba, who as of 2017,
conducted its first diversity survey,
22:33
and from there they planned on
providing progress reports.
22:38
And they've also released
an open-source framework,
22:43
which will help other companies
to hopefully do the same.
22:45
The URL I posted here is where you can
find that article that is linked to that
22:49
open-source framework.
22:54
And just as I wrap up today,
22:59
there's just a few takeaways
I wanted to cite real quick.
23:01
So first thing, we wanna make sure
we understand unconscious bias and
23:06
its impact.
23:09
Whether negative or positive,
23:10
we wanna be very clear on
the depths of unconscious bias.
23:11
We also wanna make sure that we're being
intentional about uncovering our own
23:15
unconscious biases.
23:19
Because a lot of the times our
questions can be rooted in bias.
23:20
Naturally, we are coming from experiences
that have taught us and have informed our
23:23
future experiences, but it is important
to critically think about those as well.
23:27
You also wanna be able to take advantage
of opportunities to challenge unconscious
23:33
biases around you, whether this be within
your professional working space, or
23:36
your social environment.
23:40
And then concern yourself with unconscious
biases even if they benefit you or
23:43
do not affect you at all.
23:47
This is where the shift
really takes place.
23:49
If we can all look at unconscious bias
as affecting us all the same way,
23:51
then we can kind of look to
it as more of a team effort.
23:56
Rather than leaving it to those
who are being marginalized or
23:59
affected by unconscious bias to
handle the issue on their own.
24:02
So with that, I just wanna say thank
you to Liz for coordinating this, and
24:08
Ryan as well.
24:12
And also Team Treehouse, Treehouse
festival for having me speak today.
24:13
And for anyone who does wanna connect with
me, I'm on LinkedIn under Valerie Osei,
24:17
and I'm happy to take questions
if anybody has any questions.
24:23
I actually gonna switch screens.
24:27
Okay, so we have, okay, how would you
recommend approaching a company that
24:29
only has white sis people on their
boards and in managerial positions?
24:34
Do we stay and try and change these
systems internally or leave and
24:39
try to support these changes externally?
24:42
That's a very, very good question, and
24:44
that's also a very tough
thing to think about.
24:47
What I'll say is that sometimes, and
unfortunately, very unfortunately and
24:51
may not be worth exerting energy on trying
to change a system that is deeply, deeply,
24:56
deeply rooted in white supremacy.
25:01
And just refusing to acknowledge
the experiences of minority groups,
25:03
a lot of the time you try to tell
someone there's a problem and
25:07
they'll tell you that you're
the one with the problem.
25:11
So this is where you wanna make
sure to assess the situation.
25:14
If you feel like the energy or
exerting in this situation is too much for
25:18
your mental health and
too much for you overall.
25:22
Then I would say that it is okay
to exit from that situation and
25:24
change it from the outside.
25:29
Speak about it more, be vocal about it,
and challenge the institutions that
25:31
support it, rather than feeling like you
have to carry the world on your shoulders.
25:35
We have another one, what is the best
way to be an ally while at the same
25:42
time competing for
jobs with those that I want equality for?
25:45
Okay, yeah, so being an ally
means listening to those of us
25:49
who are recounting experiences that
we may have had in the workplace or
25:53
in our social environments.
25:57
And in particular, if someone is
holding you accountable, listen.
26:00
I think the best thing to do is
just open your ears, listen.
26:04
Even if you feel like you don't think
you've done that or you don't think you've
26:06
engaged in offensive behavior,
just listen to what that person is saying.
26:11
Because they're citing experiences
that you likely don't have privy to or
26:15
you're not able to relate
to those experiences.
26:20
So being a good listener is a big one.
26:24
And then, competing for jobs with
those that you want equality for,
26:26
this is where you can also hold
hiring managers accountable.
26:31
If you're going for a job and
you're in an interview,
26:35
it goes back to being unafraid to speak
up about possible unconscious biases that
26:38
are taking place during your interview.
26:43
Sometimes, the assumption that
you're willing to participate
26:45
in beer O'clock Fridays as an example, so
drinking beer with the buddies on Friday.
26:49
That assumption alone is rooted in bias.
26:54
You can address that too, and
26:56
also let the hiring managers know that
they need to look at candidates with
26:58
a lens that's not rooted in favouring
certain groups over other groups.
27:02
How do we approach companies that are
performative, for example LGBT support to
27:06
make sales and attract talent, but
internally they don't support def?
27:11
Yeah, okay, that's a big one.
27:15
So I'm approaching companies
that are performative.
27:17
Yes, so when it comes to companies
that are performative, again,
27:20
if you're feeling like this
is something you can take on,
27:23
speaking out against this,
there's nothing wrong with that.
27:26
You can cite these companies if
you feel comfortable to do so.
27:29
Now, if you're employed by this company,
obviously,, it's gonna look different.
27:32
But if you feel like within
the company you're working for,
27:39
there's a level of performative
activism going on, you wanna try and
27:42
see if there's a channel for communication
to address the issue directly.
27:47
And this does come with consequences.
27:52
It's hard to predict what these
consequences will be because every company
27:54
is different and every manager is gonna
have a different ear to this issue, right?
27:57
So what I'd say is don't
be afraid to speak up and
28:02
in a sense, be willing to sacrifice
a part of yourself for the cause.
28:05
Cuz unfortunately,
that's what we do when we open our mouth,
28:10
we accept the consequences
of the backlash.
28:13
And we have here,
how do we approach companies?
28:16
I think that was Peter's question.
28:19
Perfect, okay, so
that's the end of the questions.
28:22
So I just wanted to also say a huge thank
you to all of you for the questions and
28:24
hoping that I've been able to share
some useful information today.
28:28
And thanks so much,
hope you guys enjoy the rest of your day.
28:33
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