Working in Web Design - Paul Boag

[MUSIC] 0:00 >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Treehouse Friends. 0:05 I'm Dan Gorgone, one of the teaching leaders here at Treehouse. 0:07 And we're joined today by Paul Boag, co-founder of Headscape. 0:11 Paul, thanks for comin'. 0:14 >> No problem. 0:15 Really good to be here. 0:16 >> Paul, can you tell us about your experience as 0:17 a designer, and with working with hundreds of clients at Headscape? 0:19 >> Mm-hm. 0:23 Wow. 0:25 You want me to sum up you know, what is it, nearly 20 years of web design 0:26 in, in. >> Maybe 140 characters, like a tweet. 0:30 >> 140 characters. >> Yeah. 0:32 >> I enjoy it, it's good. They go. 0:33 How about that? >> Excellent. 0:36 Can you expand upon it, maybe a blog post now. 0:37 >> [LAUGH] Okay, okay. 0:39 I absolutely love working with clients. I'm a bit weird like that. 0:41 You get a lot of web designers 0:44 that complain, don't they, about their clients and. 0:45 Hate clients. 0:48 Working with clients is horrible. 0:49 And they wish that they could go and, you 0:51 know, set up tree house or something like that. 0:53 But personally, I really enjoy working with clients. 0:55 I feel that, find it a really rewarding experience to take. 0:58 It's almost a, a teaching thing. Almost a little bit like what you guys do. 1:02 That you have a client come in that really 1:06 doesn't have a good understanding of now the web works. 1:08 They need this website. 1:11 And I get to educate them, and take them through the process. 1:13 And at the end of it, hopefully they 1:16 end up with this website that they absolutely love, 1:18 that they're really enthusiastic about and they understand 1:20 why the website is the way it is. 1:24 So, you know, I don't believe in going away and, and creating magic 1:26 without the client being involved, and then presenting a design and going ta-da. 1:31 Here's the magic moment. 1:36 Instead, I work really collaboratively with clients and I 1:38 will engage them in every step of the process. 1:41 They're learning along 1:45 the way. 1:46 So I mood board with them, I wire frame with them. 1:46 We discuss business objectives together. 1:49 We talk about users together. 1:51 I try and get them involved in user testing. 1:53 I really include the client as much as possible. 1:56 So when the, they get this final website. 1:58 A, they feel like it's there website that they're passionate about. 2:02 And B they are, they've learned along the way and 2:05 they understand why the website is the way it is. 2:08 >> Well speaking of learning you were in recently with us here in the studio. 2:11 >> Yeah. 2:15 >> And delivering some content about running a successful web design business. 2:16 Something that you've done for now over a dozen years. 2:22 >> Yeah, yeah. 2:25 >> What can members expect from that series of videos? 2:26 >> Well, I've got this you, what you want me 2:30 to do now, is show that how great, and how wonderful 2:34 it is. And, but I'm gonna lower expectations. 2:36 [LAUGH] All right? 2:39 There is no guarantee that if you, if you do this 2:40 particular course, that you're gonna with a successful web design business. 2:44 But what I do do, is I do share my experiences of what's worked for me. 2:47 The reason I don't, I think you can't say you'll definitely walk away with 2:53 a successful web design business is because 2:57 it depends on your definition of success, 2:59 doesn't it? 3:01 What I may consider to be a successful web design business might be different to you. 3:02 But, we will look at all kinds of subjects 3:07 that will certainly help you create a good foundation. 3:10 So, we look at marketing, we look at sales and pitching, writing proposals. 3:13 We get into all kinds of stuff about building a lifestyle business in what, 3:18 no doubt we'll talk more about that later, but I also talk about things 3:22 like getting work done. 3:26 You know, I know it's a stupid thing, but you know, when you're trying to run 3:29 your own business, you get so many interruptions, 3:32 and how do you actually get, get stuff done? 3:35 So we cover the whole kind of gamut of things that I've learned 3:37 over the years about kind of making a web design business really work. 3:42 I mean, it's a whole different set 3:46 of concerns when you're working for someone else. 3:47 >> Hm. 3:51 Versus working for yourself. >> Yeah. 3:51 >> When you're working for someone else, there are those responsibilities. 3:53 There are timelines. 3:56 There are people that, that literally are telling you what to do. 3:57 >> Yeah. 4:00 >> Whereas, you have to rely upon discipline Yeah. 4:01 >> And determination. >> Yeah. 4:04 >> And also probably a great of guilt >> Mm-hm. 4:06 >> And self-doubt when you're working for yourself, right? 4:09 >> And also I think there's a lot of people 4:12 have a lot of unrealistic expectations when they start out. 4:14 >> 4:17 Mm-hm. 4:17 >> So one of the things people think is, 4:17 they sit down and go, well hang on a minute. 4:19 I know I'm being charged out at 500, you know, dollars a day or whatever. 4:22 And I know I'm getting paid considerably less. 4:27 If I was working for myself $500 a day times 4:29 five days a week times 52 weeks in a year, wow. 4:32 >> Mm-hm. 4:36 >> I'm gonna be raking it in. 4:36 But then of course they forget, holidays, sickness, 4:38 admin, dealing with clients, accounting, chasing bad debts. 4:41 >> Mm-hm. 4:45 >> All of these, kind of, other 4:45 things that surround running a web design business. 4:46 And, so, often. 4:50 People set up as a freelancer, thinking they're gonna, you 4:51 know earn more, work less hours, be their own boss. 4:54 And instead, what ends up happening is that they under charge themselves. 4:59 They have to work really long hours because they take 5:02 on too much work and end up working a lot 5:04 harder than they did before. 5:06 And on top of which, instead of just having one 5:08 awkward boss to deal with, now they've got every single client. 5:10 >> Mm-hm >> Who's being awkward and demanding. 5:14 So, the reality of going freelancing freelancer, and running your 5:16 own web design business is often very different from the expectations. 5:21 And it's how to get back to that vision. 5:26 How to do you get back to a situation where, you're working less. 5:28 You're in control of the work that you're doing. 5:31 And you're working with great clients you enjoy working with. 5:34 >> And this is what the concept of a lifestyle business, is all about? 5:37 >> Yes. >> Right? 5:41 >> Yes, 5:41 >> So, you mentioned that, what is the lifestyle business? 5:41 What is, what is that? >> Yeah. 5:44 >> Cuz I know it depends for everyone. Right? 5:46 >> Absolutely. 5:48 >> It's a different set of, of needs, and, and obligations. 5:49 >> Mm-hm. >> But also defining success. 5:52 So, what is the lifestyle business? >> To me, there, there are kind of two 5:53 fundamental ways of doing business, okay? 5:56 There's the, the people that are entrepreneurs that set up a business. 6:00 And the idea is they build it up and then they sell it on. 6:05 And they go and, and drink piña coladas on the beach somewhere. 6:08 >> Mm-hm. And then there are lifestyle businesses. 6:11 And these are businesses where you'll create, you go into business for 6:14 yourself because you want to achieve certain things in your own life, 6:18 that you want to be able to work less maybe earn more money, 6:22 be more flexible in your working hours, or whatever it is that you want. 6:27 And those are businesses that have to provide a return every day to you. 6:31 It's, you're not living for the future you're living for today. 6:36 And that's really the kind of business most people that 6:39 set up a web design agency or go freelance are after. 6:42 Yet, so much of the time we end up living 6:45 for the future, oh it will get easier, you know? 6:49 And once I'm more established, it'll be easier further down the line, you know? 6:52 And today I have to put in really long 6:56 hours and, and kind of give up my social life. 6:57 But it will be better later on, and that's not the way to live, you know, it's the 7:00 old adage, isn't always gets this the wrong way 7:04 round, of you know we should, shouldn't be living to 7:07 work, we should be working to live. >> Mm-hm. 7:10 No, the other way around. 7:13 See I told you I would get it the wrong way around. 7:14 [LAUGH] You know, its this idea that a business should facilitate 7:16 your lifestyle, rather than your life being dedicated to your business. 7:19 That's a lifestyle business. 7:24 >> Well I think some people starting out as freelancers are 7:26 starting their own business, may feel very nervous, very, very challenged by 7:30 the fact that they don't have a lot 7:35 of experience, a lot of projects in their portfolio. 7:37 >> Yeah. 7:41 >> And so the risk, or, or the idea 7:41 could be that they should take whatever comes their way. 7:46 >> Yes. 7:49 >> Just take anything they can, start padding the résumé. 7:49 >> Yeah. 7:52 >> And then later on, that portfolio will 7:53 look even better to the ideal clients they want. 7:55 >> Yes. 7:58 >> Or, or the type of projects that they wanna get. 7:58 Is that 8:00 a good strategy? 8:00 Should, when you're starting out should you just 8:01 kind of take whatever you can, or should 8:02 you, should you work with family, friends and 8:05 family [CROSSTALK] to do those types of things? 8:08 What do, what do you recommend for people starting out? 8:11 >> Yeah, this is a really difficult question. 8:14 >> Hm. 8:16 >> Because it's the kind of the theoretical 8:17 and the idealistic way of working, and then. 8:20 Mm-hm. 8:22 >> There's the reality of it. The reality is, to begin 8:22 with, you take anything. >> Mm-hm. 8:26 >> You know, you've gotta get money behind you. 8:28 And, and a lot of freelancers do what is very sensible, which is that 8:30 they build up that portfolio in evenings 8:33 and weekends while they're doing the day job. 8:35 So that the point comes where they've just 8:38 got too much work to deal with the evenings 8:39 and weekends and they're kind of forced to go 8:41 freelance, and that's probably the best way of working. 8:43 In terms of working with friends and family, ouch. 8:47 Yes. 8:49 [LAUGH] >> Never, 8:49 never a good thing, but again, when you're 8:51 starting out, you know, beggars can't be choosers. 8:53 >> Mm-hm. 8:56 >> I think where it becomes important to be picky, is in terms 8:56 of how you present yourself to the world, and how you market yourself. 9:02 So although, you know, don't turn away work when you start off. 9:07 But equally, don't advertise yourself or promote yourself as being a jack of 9:11 all trades and master of none. 9:16 You know, decide who you want to target, and, and target that group of people. 9:18 You might specialize, as I say, in, in the videos that we cover. 9:23 You might specialize in eCommerce sites or WordPress sites. 9:27 you might focus in a particular geographical area or in 9:32 a particular sector like charity websites or higher education websites. 9:35 So, there's a difference between what you accept is work that kind 9:41 of comes to you and what you actively pursue if that makes sense. 9:44 So that's kind of how I would divvy it up. 9:48 >> And does it help to have an 9:50 interest, you know, a passion in the subject 9:52 matter or in the perhaps, the cause behind 9:55 some of these clients and projects as well? 9:59 I can imagine that it would be much easier to 10:01 think about that work. >> Yeah. 10:07 >> So, when you think about, oh, I have this project to do, and I have this 10:08 client I have to take care of, it must 10:11 be much easier to think about doing those projects. 10:12 >> Yeah. 10:15 When you have a personal stake or a personal interest in them. 10:15 >> Absolutely. It makes a huge difference. 10:18 I mean, I, one of the big sectors that we work in is the charity sector. 10:20 And working on charity work sites is so much more 10:24 rewarding than working on, you know, some boring arse government 10:27 website, or something. 10:31 [LAUGH] You know, because of the subject matter. 10:33 Because of what it is you're promoting. 10:35 That said, I think you need to cultivate in yourself The ability 10:37 to get enthusiastic and compassionate about whatever it is you're working on. 10:44 >> Mm-hm. 10:47 >> Because finding that thing in a project that 10:48 sets you on fire is absolutely key because the client 10:51 will pick up on if you don't care about a project, a client will know that. 10:56 And that's when they'll have to start 11:01 caring more, which means they start micromanaging, 11:03 and they start getting involved in things you don't want them to get involved in. 11:06 So find something on the project that makes you passionate. 11:10 It might be the subject matter. 11:13 Or it might be the technology you're applying 11:14 to it, or you're using a new technique, 11:16 or you've seen this really cool design trick 11:18 that you wanna try out, or whatever it is. 11:20 Find something in every project that you can get excited about. 11:22 If you're excited about a project, you will carry the client with you. 11:25 And, you know, and actually enthusiasm will take you such a long way. 11:30 I joked on the videos that I've recorded for you guys 11:35 about how I have one client where I was getting so 11:38 excited and enthusiastic the client said to me how can I 11:42 possibly say no to you Paul, it would be like kicking 11:45 a puppy. >> Mm-hm. 11:47 >> And, you know, that kind of sums it up. 11:48 If you're enthusiastic you'll take the client with you. 11:51 >> So, on that note I think that 11:54 many of us would imagine that the perfect client 11:56 would be one that wants to, well, really wants 11:59 to pay you a million dollars to do nothing. 12:04 >> Oh. >> Really, nothing at all. 12:06 >> Yeah, I'd agree with that [LAUGH]. 12:06 >> but, you know, in terms of the ideal client and I, and I suppose it, 12:07 it also depends on the skills and interests and everything. 12:12 But, you know, what is the perfect client? 12:15 What is, what is. >> Yeah. 12:16 >> What is a great client? 12:17 What makes them up and, and for people that, maybe people 12:18 that are watching this, that are thinking about contracting with others. 12:23 >> Yeah. 12:26 How can they be a better client. >> Hm. 12:27 >> For a project? 12:29 >> That's a really, there's kinda two questions there. 12:30 >> Sure. >> You're right. 12:32 The perfect, the perfect client is definitely one that 12:32 pays you a million dollars and, and doesn't require 12:35 anything back. >> Sure. 12:37 >> I think we're all in agreement on that. 12:38 >> Sure. 12:39 >> But, being a little bit more realistic about it. 12:40 For me, it's, it's all about engagement and relationship. 12:43 Okay? 12:48 So, if you have a client that's willing to engage and get stuck in, roll 12:49 up their sleeves and get stuck into the process, that goes such a long way. 12:53 The clients that just want you to go away and produce a website. 12:58 Actually, 13:02 you would think that they would be the best clients. 13:02 Because they, you know, they're, they're hands 13:05 off and they're letting you do your thing. 13:07 But, actually, what normally happens, is you produce a 13:10 website and then they complain and moan about it. 13:12 So, you really want a client that kind of engages from the very beginning. 13:14 >> Mm-hm. 13:17 The other thing that you need is a client where 13:17 there is a really good rapport between you and that client. 13:20 All right? 13:24 Their kind of people that you get on with personally. 13:24 And the reason 13:27 that's so important is because, if you're, if you 13:28 actually build a relationship with your supplier, or your client, 13:30 depending on which side of the fence you're on Then, 13:34 it, it, it makes everything go much, so much smoother. 13:36 You tend to be much more laid back about 13:39 problems and challenges, which are never to be come up. 13:42 You recognize that this person is trying really hard on your behalf, 13:45 and so it kind of shifts the relationship and makes things go 13:49 much smoother. 13:53 But also, as a, as a web designer if you've 13:54 got a client which you just get on with, you 13:58 feel more relaxed and willing to challenge them and say, 14:01 well, I don't thing that necessary is the best way. 14:04 >> Mm-hm. >> Perhaps we could try this instead. 14:06 And that's where things really spark. 14:08 But it works the other way around as well, that if you 14:11 respect your client, then you're willing to listen to their ideas and opinions. 14:13 >> Mm-hm. >> And you don't have that stroppy 14:17 moment that we all have as designers, going, I'm the designer! 14:18 Listen to me! 14:21 >> [LAUGH] 14:22 >> You know, it's much more of a kind of two-way relationship. 14:23 I mean, the best client I ever, ever 14:25 worked with was for a large e-commerce site. 14:27 And he, he would I would always be pushing him and challenging him. 14:31 And he would push me back. 14:36 And he called me a, a, a pinko 14:38 communist because I always [LAUGH] put the user first. 14:39 And I called him a mon, 14:43 money grabbing capitalist cuz he just 14:44 wanted to extract money [LAUGH] from people. 14:45 And that was the kind of relationship we had, and it was great. 14:47 And it worked really well. 14:50 So, it's those, and he was really engaged as well. 14:51 So, it's those two factors, being gay, get a client 14:54 that's engaged, and also get somebody you get on with. 14:56 That's what you're really looking for. 14:59 And, here's the important thing: If you go through that initial 15:01 proposal stage, and you're going in the back of your head, 15:05 oh, oh I'm not sure about this, be brave. Be brave and walk away. 15:08 And that's very difficult at the beginning of a project. 15:13 You have projects, and you're trying to Keep yourself busy, but it's so important. 15:16 If those things aren't there, it'll be a bad 15:21 project and you're not gonna make money out of it. 15:24 >> Mm-hm. 15:26 And I think, you know, those, those two characters 15:26 that you talked about probably would make a good sitcom. 15:28 >> Yeah. 15:31 >> Really good half-hour comedy. 15:31 >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And the web designer and 15:32 the clients. >> Yeah, yeah. 15:34 >> [LAUGH] 15:35 >> Well I was thinking about there, 15:35 the pinko communist and the capitalist money grabber. 15:36 >> That's them. 15:39 >> That would, yeah. Perfect. 15:39 [LAUGH] So, for, for designers and developers working 15:40 in the industry now you know, there so very busy with client work, and 15:46 maybe they even have a day job, but they have all 15:51 these other obligations as well, family and everything else going on. 15:53 It's extremely busy. >> Yeah. 15:57 >> To. 15:59 Its extremely busy and its extremely difficult at times to stay current. 16:01 >> Yes. 16:05 >> You know, new things come out all the time, new 16:05 versions of, of software, and updates to language, and, and new apps. 16:06 How do, I mean, how do you stay current? 16:12 >> [LAUGH] 16:13 >> You know, how do, how do you stay current? 16:14 How does the team at Headscape stay current and, you know, 16:15 what advice can you offer for designers and developers out there? 16:18 To be honest, this, this whole thing 16:22 of we're all so busy, okay? We're as busy as we allow ourselves to be. 16:25 >> Mm-hm. >> Right? 16:31 Work will expand to fill the space that you give it. 16:32 I'm a great believer in working smarter rather than longer. 16:36 So, there are all kinds of techniques that we talk 16:40 about in the, in the videos about how to do that. 16:42 But I think what I would really encourage is you have to set aside time. 16:45 Whether you think you've got that time or not, you have to set 16:50 aside time to do research, to keep 16:53 up-to-date, to, to keep engaged with things. 16:56 And ring fence that, and refuse to compromise over that time. 17:00 And you will find you'll get the work done. 17:05 You will get the work done within the 17:08 available time that you give it, you give it. 17:10 >> Mm-hm. >> It's amazing. 17:13 And it, it feels like 17:14 it makes no sense but it works. 17:15 So that's one part of it, is ring fencing time. 17:18 I think it, it's also about, not kind of picking and choosing where you learn from. 17:21 Okay. 17:28 That the internet is full with amazing content okay, 17:28 and you can end up looking in so many different 17:32 places that you're actually seeing a lot of the 17:34 same thing again, and again, and again, in various forms. 17:37 So I think 17:40 narrow it down and pick a small number of sources that you work from. 17:41 You know, Treehouse might be one example but equally it could 17:45 be you know, certain RSS feeds, or certain people that you read. 17:47 But limit the number of sources you go to. 17:51 Find certain individuals that are trustworthy sources, and rely on 17:53 them to do a lot of the filtering for you. 17:57 So that's another thing that you can do. 18:00 So there are lots essentially of, of kind of managing your time. 18:02 Managing the sources that you're looking at in 18:06 order to not get too overwhelmed by it all. 18:09 >> Battlestar Galactica. 18:13 >> [LAUGH] Yeah? 18:14 >> Or Doctor Who? Oh, that's really cruel! 18:15 >> I didn't say they were gonna be easy questions. 18:19 >> You see now, that's really unfair. 18:22 >> Mm-hm. 18:23 >> I'll tell you why it's unfair. 18:24 Cuz Battlestar Galactica, is without a bit of doubt, 18:25 the best piece of sci-fi television that's ever been made. 18:28 Right, so, it, on that basis, it has to win. 18:30 But in terms of emotional attachment as a British guy. 18:34 >> [LAUGH] That grew up, you know, teatimes on Saturday, sitting 18:41 down with my parents, watching Doctor Who, hiding behind the sofa. 18:45 Cuz I really did do that. 18:49 >> Mm-hm. >> Being terrified of it. 18:51 And then as an adult. 18:54 Where it's been rebooted and restarted and having my son 18:56 and connecting with him it's got to be Doctor Who. 18:59 So, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna go Doctor Who. 19:03 >> [LAUGH] Okay. 19:05 I was gonna say you were going to cop out in the end there. 19:07 You were gonna say, no both of' em. 19:08 >> No no. 19:09 I've got, I've got to follow my heart, and that's what I've got to do. 19:10 >> Okay, Star Trek or Star Wars. 19:14 >> Oh, Star Wars, that's easy. >> Okay, all right. 19:15 >> You're making up questions as you go along, now, aren't you? 19:20 I can tell. 19:22 >> No, this is, this, for the middle part, the sci fi section. 19:22 >> Oh the sci fi section of the show. >> You didn't see that part. 19:25 >> I didn't know that was in it. >> Last question of the sci-fi part. 19:27 >> Yeah. >> The doctor. 19:30 >> Yeah. >> Or, Sherlock Holmes. 19:32 >> Whoa. 19:35 >> Well, Sherlock Holmes isn't sci-fi. >> Yeah, but it's still fantasy. 19:36 >> So that's fine. 19:38 Are, they're pretty much one and the same thing these days, aren't there? 19:39 >> Really? 19:42 >> I mean, you got Steven Moffat 19:42 writing Doctor Who, you've got Steven Moffat 19:44 writing Sherlock. So there you go. 19:45 It's the same character basically. 19:47 >> Okay. >> It's gotta be Doctor Who. 19:48 >> That's one answer. 19:50 >> Cuz he's a, he's a time traveling alien. 19:51 I mean, that's gotta be cooler than Sherlock Holmes. 19:53 >> Okay. 19:55 Fair enough. >> And also I'm good wholesome person. 19:55 I mean, you know, Sherlock Holmes, he's a drug addict. 19:57 How could I possibly support that? 20:00 >> Okay, after the show you can tell me what you really think. 20:03 >> Yeah I'll tell you the truth then, later. 20:05 >> Okay, all right. 20:06 Now, back to the program. 20:06 >> So are we gonna talk about web design again? 20:07 >> Back to the program. 20:09 >> [LAUGH] >> When Headscape and other design 20:10 agencies are looking for new talent >> Yes. 20:11 >> Obviously there are certain positions where you have specific needs. 20:13 >> Yeah. 20:18 >> And other times, you're just, you're looking for someone great. 20:18 >> Yeah. 20:20 >> Now, hat is it you're looking for in new 20:21 talent for someone that wants to come work for you. 20:24 Is it, do you have to have or is there work experience versus college diploma? 20:27 >> Right, yeah. >> What is it, exactly? 20:33 Okay, to some extent it depends on who you're hiring, right? 20:36 I'll be honest, designer I don't give a monkeys 20:39 what their education is, it's all about their portfolio, okay? 20:41 If they've got great portfolio work then I'm sold. 20:44 With developers, it's a little bit more 20:47 complicated because having a having a university 20:50 education in Computer Science provides certain analytical 20:54 skills that are really useful for a developer. 20:58 But, put it like this. 21:01 I'm not gonna ever rate, you know, to bits 21:03 of paper that highly, compared to, to real world experience. 21:05 And I recognize you get into this Catch 22 21:11 of how do you kind of start in your career. 21:14 Because everybody wants experience, and you don't have experience. 21:15 So we're very careful not to judge too heavily on experience. 21:18 Will do, if you haven't got a lot of experience, we'll set you a test to do. 21:22 We'll give you a coding 21:25 challenge and if you can do that, then perhaps that answers our questions. 21:26 But to re, be honest, really skills, skills are the easy bit. 21:30 Right? 21:34 I can teach anybody. Well, you can teach anybody. 21:36 That's what you do. 21:39 >> Sure. 21:40 >> You can teach anybody to, to learn how 21:40 to code pretty much anything or to do design. 21:42 That's easy. 21:44 Right? 21:46 You know, I can hire someone, I can give them 21:46 a Treehouse account, off they go and they can learn it. 21:49 What really matters are finding the people 21:52 with the right personality and right attitude. 21:56 So every cult, every company has its own culture. 22:00 And you need to find people that fit in with 22:04 that culture, that kind of have the same outlook on life. 22:06 Not the same types of people, you don't want everybody to be 22:10 a clone of one another, but kind of have the same attitude 22:14 towards work and the same attitude towards business and that kind of stuff. 22:17 >> Mm-hm. 22:20 >> So that's one aspect. 22:22 Then you need people that have real tinkerers, for want of a better word. 22:23 People that are obsessed with playing with the web, right? 22:27 Because the web changes so rapidly. 22:30 You know, you can have a university degree in whatever you 22:33 want but that's gonna be irrelevant in two three years time. 22:37 What matters is somebody 22:41 that's a lifelong learner. 22:42 There are a lot of different ways of learning. 22:44 But, the, the, the, the way that I 22:46 love the most are people that experiment and play. 22:48 You know I love it when our designers and developers you know, create some 22:51 new-lit way of doing things, and they show it to me, and it's like, right! 22:56 We're gonna use that from now on. >> Mm-hm. 22:59 >> I had a classic example recently. 23:01 One of the challenges we have at Headscape, as a lot 23:02 of web design agencies do, is how to show a client 23:05 responsiveness, you know, when you're at the kind of design stage. 23:08 And our designer had, you know, been working 23:12 till 3, 4 in the morning, just playing 23:14 with some clever app that, you know, allowed 23:16 design to reformat itself to show to clients. 23:19 And, you know, he wasn't gettin' paid to do that. 23:23 But he did it anyway. 23:26 And it's that kind of obsessive compulsive behavior that I love, you know. 23:27 But it's not about the 23:32 working the long hours. 23:33 It's about the playing and the experimenting. 23:34 >> Sure. So, and this is the last question. 23:36 >> Okay. 23:39 So, I've gotta be, is it a really good question? 23:40 >> It's, no. Probably the worst one. 23:43 >> It's gotta be the best question [CROSSTALK] 23:45 >> I left for last, it's the worst one. 23:46 >> The, the, aw. >> Yeah. 23:47 I'll make it best answer, then. >> What is the web design [INAUDIBLE]? 23:49 >> [LAUGH] That web thing, what is it? 23:52 >> [LAUGH] So what is it about design that you're 23:56 truly passionate about, I mean what is, what 23:58 is the thing that's, drives you now to 24:01 work on client projects and will continue to 24:04 drive you to work on projects in the future? 24:06 Now that's making the assumption I still am passionate. 24:09 Perhaps I'm just jaded and twisted and bitter. 24:11 >> Could be. 24:14 >> So that, that would be a real high to end the interview on. 24:15 >> Sure. >> Luckily I'm not. 24:17 [LAUGH] Luckily I'm still enthusiastic. 24:18 What is it about design? 24:21 I mean I'm not a hands on designer anymore. 24:22 I think that's an important thing to say. 24:24 I, I work with clients on a consultative basis. 24:25 I think what I love about, my job, and I've 24:30 always loved is, what we just talked about, is that it's 24:34 forever changing, there's always something new, there's always a new technique, 24:39 there's always something new to explore and to to challenge you. 24:43 And every client project 24:47 I get in, there's got some nuance to it that challenges me. 24:49 You know, it's got a, a, that ecommerce site I mentioned earlier. 24:53 Their average user was in their 80s. 24:57 80 years old, that was the average, you know, user. 25:01 And so, that had an amazing target 25:03 audience to work with, that created brilliant challenges. 25:06 Other times it's, there's some real, kind 25:08 of complexity and the technology that needs solving. 25:10 Or a design 25:14 challenge that I've never encountered before. 25:15 Even after nearly 20 years in web design, every project has got something new to it. 25:17 Whether it be some horrible politics within 25:23 the organization that I have to work around. 25:25 You know, it's that challenge that keeps me going. 25:28 And as soon as, as soon as the web becomes an established 25:32 industry, like I don't know, engineering or architecture, I'm out of here. 25:35 You know? 25:38 >> [LAUGH] >> That, I've lost 25:38 interest then. >> Of to sip drinks on the beach. 25:40 >> Yes. 25:43 Although because I've built a lifestyle business rather 25:43 than one with an exit strategy, I'm totally stuffed. 25:46 [LAUGH] I haven't planned a business like that. 25:48 But, you know, it's never too late to start. 25:51 [LAUGH] 25:53 >> Well, thanks for joining us, and, and for our members 25:53 that want to continue to follow you, where can they find you? 25:56 At the podcast, yes? 25:59 >> Yeah, I do a web design podcast at boagworld.com. 26:00 But I also 26:04 put out loads of blog posts as well. >> Mm-hm. 26:05 >> But, also, seriously, check out the stuff that I've done 26:07 at Treehouse as well, because I've, I've really enjoyed doing it. 26:10 It's been a brilliant couple of days doing that, 26:12 and hopefully there's some useful stuff in there, as well. 26:15 >> Absolutely. 26:17 Thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for 26:18 watching this episode of Treehouse Friends, we'll see you next time. 26:20 [MUSIC]. 26:23

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