Is it appropriate to bring in IF/Else statements into an Introduction to Programming

Ron -

You might be interested in checking out the new JavaScript Basics course.

Ron, the concepts inherent in programming in general can be extremely abstract, and while I understand the needs of the students' needs to grasp all concepts, their are often situations that call for "bigger picture theory". The same approach applies to the concepts of mathematics. Sometimes, while investing time in learning advanced concepts in Calculus, or Linear Algebra, it is advised to acknowledge that there is a general assumption that the math is correct before breaking down every facet of the equation. Understanding the broader idea is also necessary in programming, and assuming that the code the instructor is telling you is necessary, in order to provide a bigger picture so that the more minute details can be explored later and thus mastered.

Hey I'm not a guru at Javascript or jQuery, I'm just a student of Treehouse trying to learn like everyone else here. But Jon Duckett, the author of JavaScript and jQuery: Interactive front-end web development, would say the exact opposite of your last sentence. And I can only assume he knows more about programming than myself, or you, or the majority of people in this industry. Just my thoughts. Best of luck.

I am sure that anyone qualified to write a book about a particular subject was, at some point, a beginner in the subject and thus has the experience to know what it is like to have been a beginner - probably at a time when there were far fewer resources available to learn from. I consider Jon Duckett's books to be highly valuable and educational and have learned a great deal from them. I read a lot of rants in the JavaScript forums about the material, poor quality of teaching, etc... The material is being broken down in its simplest forms. When something is introduced that is not covered in detail, patience has shown that it will be covered in detail at a later time. Learning to program is much more complex than learning to write markup. There are lots of abstract and intangible concepts that can be a challenge. I think a lot of people get stuck on the paradox of being abstract and intangible and still very logical and out of the frustration of being stuck, blame the material, the teacher, or the school. There is very much a DIY nature to programming and at the end of the day, the best way to learn and progress is to take the information presented and mess with it, change it, make your own examples, apply it to situations, and do additional learning and research from outside sources.

I dont mean to sound like a jerk as we are all here to learn, but I just see a lot of complaining in a lot of the forum questions. It would be great to see someone take their frustration and direct it out in a positive manner along the lines of "if you're struggling with the materials or teaching, here are some ways to help..."

That being said, here are some ways to help bridge some of the gaps that people may find in the materials: read books (Jon Duckett's books are great as is Tim Wright's), write a pre-set number of for loops, while loops, objects, and conditional statements each day, pick a topic and write a white paper on it - anything you can't fully explain is something you should research and practice until you can, blog about your experiences in learning, take the information from the JavaScript courses that you are struggling with and apply the concepts to the websites created in the HTML and CSS courses or to the websites you have created on your own, join a meetup group and look for a mentor, become a mentor, teach your kids/spouse/friend/whoever what you have already learned.

Kevin, you stated "If someone is going to skip the recommended intro course it should be expected that they understand these foundational concepts." But you also said, "It says in the Foundations course that it is recommended that you have some knowledge of programming and even recommends Introduction to Programming be taken."

So, essentially, whether you skip the "Introduction to Programming" or you continue with the the intro course, you should still know stuff like If/Else, and I presume For and While loops along with Arrays.

If that were the case, then I suggest the course not be called "Introduction to Programming".

Or, better yet, that Treehouse bring up If/Else AFTER they've already been taught. I now see that If/Else, and Loops, are covered in the next course under Control Structures. I know that tutorials like Treehouse (Code School, Code Academy, etc.) like to bring in concepts before their time, and the lecture begins with, "well, just ignore that for now, and focus on what I'm really trying to tell you," but unfortunately, the entire lesson is expected to work with the If/Else yet the user is expected to "ignore that statement behind the curtain."

I just think that if a tutorial is going to introduce, or bring in a statement or new piece of code that it is then explained so that it can then be properly used. Otherwise it's just one more question mark that the user might have floating over their head where they then have to pause the video, Google the term, try to teach themselves the term and then go back to the tutorial and incorporate both the taught and untaught term.

Your post is linking from JS Foundations course so that is where I assume the issue came up. In the Intro course I could see how that could be confusing.

Thanks for responding Richard.

I apologize if this sounds arrogant or flippant or petulant, because it's the last thing I want to be perceived as.

One does not need to learn Portuguese before one can understand an answer to an English question and you don't use words like "res ipsa loquitur" when teaching second graders how to read. You don't skip steps because doing so detracts from the student's ability to absorb the material that is being taught which is why I don't think it is prudent (or helpful) to bring in a statement (which is its own tutorial series: see JS Basics > Making Decisions with Conditional Statements) when teaching a lower level concept.

If one's goal is to be a good teacher, it would behoove the teacher to listen to his or her students when they are giving feedback about the lessons, assuming one is dealing with students who genuinely want to learn. Successful communication requires more than just a unidirectional message coming out of one's mouth in an endless stream. The message must also be received by a recipient.

If an expert just wants to listen to them self talk, then the expert can ignore any criticism of their lessons and continue speaking. However, it would be prudent to take into consideration what the recipient's experience is. It is quite probable that even though one is an expert in a subject, it isn't automatically inferred that one is also a good teacher.

So, I do not want to sound arrogant when I say this nor do I want to sound like I am criticizing Treehouse; I am not. I have used Code Academy, Code School, Thinkful and other online tutorials, courses, etc. ad nausium and have found Treehouse to be the best at online teaching. But, this issue (among several others) is systemic.

Even though I appreciate you responding, I have to disagree when I say your "bigger picture theory" is not the goal when the title of the course is "Introductory Programming." Bigger picture theory comes later after the fundamentals are firmly in place.

I am sure he would; I have his book right here next to me. The one thing he is not an expert at is what it's like to be a beginner. The book is an excellent resource, but doesn't help teach JavaScript. It is lacking.

Fair enough. All the same, best of luck on your journey! I know I need all the help I can get!

Ron L,

Your complaint was with the organization of the content and specifically with the inclusion of conditional statements in an introductory class. When you refer to the user in your original post, one would assume you are referring to the student who is in fact trying to learn to think and approach things from the mindset of a programmer. When you said that Jon Duckett was not an expert at being a beginner, you were not making any obvious reference to users of apps. Your response to my post attempts to change the entire focus of your original post from a questioning complaint about the content of a lesson to something very different. Given that and some of your other comments to other responders, it appears your end game is simply to argue your point. Your responses here come off as exactly what you said you didn't intend to be perceived as, but to each his own. Best of luck to you.