Isn't Zurb too large?

ive not used zurb but im guessing it doesnt really matter that much as you will only be using the files that you are referencing in your sites - they are arent going to be downloading large parts of the framework.

You can always use just the parts you need, same as any framework.

Nir Benita - You might want to check out this very interesting thread on using CSS Frameworks

That sounds like very good advice. Even today I was using a style.css from the mikes tshirts php project from treehouse as a starting point and Ive found it caused me more bother having to search through the css than it would have been to make from scratch.

Think im going to take a framework like bootstrap and make a cut down version of it for beginning my projects - i.e with just the resets and things that I know I'll always want.

Phil Rice - normalize.css and HTML5 boilerplate are good choices to include in every project. I'd suggest you cut most everything else, except for maybe table & form styling.

normalize.css im familiar with and will check out HTML5 boilerplate. thanks James Barnett

I echo James Barnett . I pretty much just use a reset and HTML5 Boilerplate, and I build out my own grids, media queries, adaptive-images.js, and that's it.

I am used to working with Bootstrap, etc through other projects, but there are too many stylesheets! Chris Coyier gave a talk this last year, that if you have more than 3 stylesheets on any page, it's too many.

Trying to find which stylesheets the CSS rules are coming from is easy to do, but why bother? Trying to override things becomes a pain. And don't even get me started on the gross overuse of ID tags.

Roll your own, and you'll become a much better front-end developer for the minimally extra effort. Use one stylesheet if you can. There's no reason not to put your reset and media queries on the same stylesheet as your main CSS, you save two HTTP requests. And never use @import if you can possibly avoid it either.

James Barnett - this is slightly off topic but also slightly related maybe! On the site I was using the style.css from mikes tshirts today I have a weird formatting problem . The site is connecting to a MySql db using PHP and is pulling the records backs from a products table but no matter what I do the first record is formatted different to the others. Ive looked through the css to see if there are any first-child references or anything else it might be but I can see it .

Do you have any idea what might be cause this . It is CSS for sure because if I rename the css so it isnt used the formatting problem goes away - just cant spot what it is.

in fact looking at it - the first record ISNT being formatted and all others afterwards are.

Phil Rice - Right click item in question select the inspect element feature to figure out where in your CSS that formatting come from.

have tried that and I know where the formatting comes from for the ones that are formatted - i cant see why the first one is NOT formatted though . What might cause it to not format the first row or a table?

To answer your question, no, Foundation is not too large.

Don't get me wrong! I'm a firm believer of knowing what every chunk of code is doing and how it's doing it, however, I believe learning to streamline your workflow is as every bit as important and acknowledging that some folks have done a better job than you in, let's say, building a responsive table, also matters a lot.

After messing with Foundation for a while, I now see that I could cut most of the code. The deeper I go, the better I understand it and the more I can cut.

I'm building the Backoffice for Templify and Foundation is a lot of fun to use!

Thanks guys, Nir

Nir Benita Striking a balance between cutting time and writing efficient code is something that takes a lot of time to figure out. If you need a responsive table, just take the parts of the framework that deal with that specifically, and leave the rest. Simple.

If you need a responsive table, just take the parts of the framework that deal with that specifically, and leave the rest.

Rather than using a framework if you want ideas about how to create a particular design element maybe check out some styleguides.

A few days ago there was a great blog post on design patterns and how they relate to frameworks

If you are looking for a good styleguide, here are some of my favorite:

• pea.rs
• Starbuck's styleguide
• Google's styleguide

I think people often use CSS Frameworks to try to create features they don't know enough CSS to create it by themselves.

So I think first you should learn to build the feature yourself, either by using:

• a tutorial
• a styleguide
• trying to work out what each line of code for a particular feature in your choosen framework.

+1 to what James Barnett said. Use Chrome Developer Tools or Firebug to play with the CSS, turn specific rules on and off, or change values, and you will get a great idea of what makes certain things react the way they do.

Knowing how layout works is vital.

Those links to the style guides are totally useful!

Nir Benita - You might be interested in Brad Forest's Responsive Design Patterns

In particular the one on Responsive Table

I REALLY appreciate the links :)

I wasn't really familiar with the concept of patterns in Front-End ( but rather, in design). I have no doubt this would a great thing to learn and I can't wait to get started!

Thanks all!