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Patrick Cooney
12,216 PointsProblem Solve First, Whine Later (Rant)
This is probably going to get deleted but I'll post it anyway. But maybe it will cause some people to analyze their behavior before it gets removed.
tl;dr there are a lot of people who contribute to the community but there are also some whiners who want everything done for them. To the whiners, problem solve first and if you still can't get it THEN come ask us
def rant
Most people begin learning to program to solve a problem. I imagine that encompasses many of the people who sign up for treehouse. A lot of people here work through the videos and challenges, they contribute what they can in the forums to help others, and they just all-around contribute to a good, solid community. To those people I say this: "Thank you for being a part of the treehouse community."
And then there's those other people. In contrast to the community of those excited to learn and help each other those other people are of the "do it for me" mindset. Rather than taking a few minutes to stop and think through the problem they are encountering and potential ways to solve it, they come running to the forum to complain or to ask someone else to give them the information. It really is the exact opposite of the type of mindset you'd expect out of a programmer. I get that sometimes you may not understand how to do something and if you've been working on something for a long time and can't figure out how to solve it, there is no shame in asking for help. However, if you try it once then get frustrated and come running to the forums asking us to do it for you and whining in the process, it's pretty hard for the rest of the community not to be left with a bad taste in our mouths about the whole thing. This isn't going to serve you well in the real world. At work, when I have make some changes to PHP code I can't go over to someone else and say, "Hey, I couldn't figure this out. Can you do it for me? Thanks". For better or worse, I have to problem solve until I get it done.
I'm sure some of you (even that are solid contributors to the community) will disagree with me. However, I see this attitude more and more lately, and not just with programming, and I needed to say something. It appears problem solving and rational thinking are a declining art in today's world. And it really makes me sad.
end
4 Answers
Matt Campbell
9,767 PointsHear hear...I agree with you entirely Patrick Cooney.
I'd like to add...
Just because you're paying for something and there's a bit to post stuff to, doesn't mean that you can expect people to work for you in the sense they are employees. If you can't do it and you've tried your hardest and researched the heck out of the problem, perhaps coding isn't for you.
Just because it's on a computer which everyone can use and learning is easily accessible, doesn't mean everyone can do it to a level of being able to go out and get a job in it, there's no shame in that. I wouldn't expect to be able to go and get a pro sports job even though I can play the sport and spend as much time as I can practising, I just don't have the inherent talent.
It's just annoying when the forum is spammed with thread after thread from one person wanting people to do things for them and blaming bad teaching or whatever for the reason they can't do it.
My 2 cents rant.
Pavol Almasi
Courses Plus Student 1,524 PointsIt is safe to say that any problems beginner and intermediate coder encounters have been solved and documented many times over. People believe that programmer's job is to code when in fact the job is to solve a problem USING code. Looking for solution to a problem you are stuck at is actually a part of programmer's life. The thing is that most people think they have to rememer every function and every syntax they learn. They are never taught - or told - that looking these up is perfectly fine, that even seasoned programmers keep a reference books at their desks all the time. So people just starting out get frustrated as they think they are failing as programmers if they cannot solve something right away.
Matt Campbell
9,767 PointsThat's a very good point. I've thousands of pages of textbooks sat by my side, not to mention Google. There isn't a day go by when I haven't looked something up. Most of my browser tabs are in fact researching how people have gone about things to complete a task I'm working on.
It's the old adage of DRY. Why write something new if it's already been written before, no need to repeat yourself.
Patrick Cooney
12,216 PointsWell said. As an example at the most fundamental level of coding, I've been writing CSS and HTML for over 10 years now. Sometimes I still forget the order of the attributes for CSS properties that can take all of them in one (i.e. border). Don't even get me started on Java syntax... haha.
Katrina M
Courses Plus Student 2,780 PointsIt seems like you spent a lot of time thinking of your post. Thoughtful of you.
I have always been drawn to people who can see all sides of the picture. That seems to be more the case when you have longer and larger life experiences.
However, there will always be newbies. And, the same questions will be asked over and over again, whether it's here or in another setting/life situation.
So, if you can't take it, it might be difficult for you...I'm a newbie in some areas, and I'm very experienced in others. I'm a student and a teacher. That's life...
Patrick Cooney
12,216 PointsYou seem to be taking offense to parts of my post. That was not my intent. My intent was to get some of the people who may fall into the category I described to see this within themselves and make an attempt to be more independent.
If you go back and re-read my post I state "I get that sometimes you may not understand how to do something and if you've been working on something for a long time and can't figure out how to solve it, there is no shame in asking for help. However, if you try it once then get frustrated and come running to the forums asking us to do it for you and whining in the process, it's pretty hard for the rest of the community not to be left with a bad taste in our mouths about the whole thing."
I have nothing against new people, heck, I'm new to iOS and Rails and plan to start Android (though to be fair I do know Java already) soon. I watch the videos on the site and have questions just like everyone else but before I come to the forum I google it and 9 out of 10 times I find my answer. There are so many languages and so many technologies it's impossible to be an expert in all of them. I'm not asking people to be an expert. I'm asking people to be independent and seek out answers on their own first.
I can look at this from all angles, I was a n00b at one point too. I have always done what I advocate in my post. I took the time to search for an answer to whatever my question was.
Katrina M
Courses Plus Student 2,780 PointsI wasn't offended. I just know, as we all do, what it's like to be new, and what it's like to be experienced. I know the feeling of dealing w/newbies and hearing the same questions over and over again, and I know what it feels like to be a fish out of water.
There is Google, which I'm pretty sure everyone uses. And, sometimes, even if you find an answer, bugs do occur w/the challenges that make you question yourself even more.
Either way, I don't want to discourage people from asking questions, whether or not they've been asked before. They will figure out soon enough if this life is or isn't for them. People who can't and don't want to do any of the heavy lifting, won't get far in life, and that just goes without saying.
But, questions are how you learn, it doesn't matter if they're good or not. Sometimes, the lessons don't even lie with the answers...
Cheers!
Matt Campbell
9,767 Points100% was not referring to new people or wanting to put new people off. It was intended for the people who feel entitled to be handed the answers and code to complete their projects on a silver plate. The people who clearly have sat there for 2 minutes and thought can't do it, I'll get someone else to do it for me.
Jah Chaisang
7,157 PointsI'll just give my 2 cents about how we address this problem in the system level. I mean your point is worth thinking about in the larger level, because so far the majority of posts in the forum are quiz questions. I think this forum can be so much more in terms of supporting the learning process, and making Treehouse a better experience for everyone. Maybe people who have been around here longer have seen it in better days?
In terms of people posting excessively in the forum about quiz questions, I think Treehouse should just have a "hint" section for each question. On CodeAcademy, this section is pretty much the answer key. Anyone who looked at the hint will know what to do right away. For the multiple choice, this might not be crucial. But for the code part, I think it's worth considering. Sure, some people might cheat and look up the answer before they even try, but for the majority of people who are here to learn, it shouldn't be a problem. The lessons should be as self-contained as possible. You can even let the students generate these answer keys, wiki-style with some kind of moderator system. I, for one, would contribute, if such thing exists.
Then, the forum should be a place to discuss opinions, careers, going above and beyond the lessons, and collaborative projects. Based on the forum posts I've seen, a more elaborate system for student-student interactions is very much desired. With a strong community, I think people will be likely to continue subscribing and stick around, which lead to having larger number of experienced users who are able to contribute in a meaningful way, which in turn attracts more subscribers. A strong community and a system for collaboration can be very powerful, can even become a strength for an already awesome place like Treehouse. Just an idea.
Patrick Cooney
12,216 PointsQuote: Then, the forum should be a place to discuss opinions, careers, going above and beyond the lessons, and collaborative projects. /Quote
Precisely! That's the type of people I was talking about in the first paragraph of my rant. People like that would build this community into something great! I would LOVE to see a section to match up with other developers to work on a collaborative project. Imagine the great stuff this community could build! Especially because, with the global reach this website has, it would allow people with very different view points and perceptions to work together.
Matt Campbell
9,767 PointsA more segregated forum would be nice. I had an idea for creating a library of useful and actually decent wordpress plugins but due to the way the forum works, within a day or two, it was several pages down the list and thus, rather redundant even though I'm sure lots of people would find it useful. If there was a sticky options or a sub-section to wordpress, then it could have worked.
Nathan F.
30,773 PointsPerhaps a community wiki or something would suffice?
Patrick Cooney
12,216 PointsI suppose we could build something ourselves... many of us are here to learn web development after all. But I'm sure an argument would break out as to whether we should build it in Rails or PHP. Haha.
Jah Chaisang
7,157 Points:) I'm sure there are enough people to form teams for both PHP and Rails. Haha.
I do agree though that the fast-moving threads and the fact that people will come and go from this "school" will make it difficult to sustain momentum for meaningful collaborations. Is there an existing platform that helps you find people with similar interest and build an app together? I'm not talking about github. I mean people come together, find out what problem they want to solve, design, and build a solution together. Kind of like a virtual hackathon (or something less extreme)?
Patrick Cooney
12,216 PointsThe only one I'm familiar with is for people that have years of experience and are ready to have a go at founding a company. It's called "FounderMatch". Possibly a good place for people from these forums to go after they've got some experience under their belt.
Katrina M
Courses Plus Student 2,780 PointsKatrina M
Courses Plus Student 2,780 PointsI'm pretty sure the average person could have figured that out.