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Daniel Gauthier
15,000 PointsWhy Are Forum Posts Being Modified Without Notification?
Hey Censorship Fairy,
I've noticed two of my posts have been moderated recently, leaving them as basically useless husks with dashes placed everywhere an answer to the code challenge in question would otherwise appear.
While I could understand removing answers so students don't just look up an answer and stunt their learning curve, there are some questions like the one below that are just horribly worded and leave people wondering just what is required to pass the challenge:
"Set the columns to expand and display on one line when they are 300px or wider, but when the columns are narrower than 300px, the browser will redistribute the space and display them on multiple lines."
Personally, I feel that when you get stuck on a question, it's highly preferable to have the answer available somewhere (even if it takes a Google search) to review immediately rather than going through a tedious process of posting a question to the forums and remaining stuck and confused for however long it takes someone to reply.
When we take time to help people understand these questions by providing answers and thoroughly explaining the answers, are we just wasting our time since the answers will be pulled after we hit post?
What exactly is the policy on this? If nothing else, the 'rules' of posting here should be posted somewhere.
At the very least, tell me when you alter one of my posts, and why it was altered. I may not agree with it, especially with the vagueness about what is and isn't allowed here, but at least I'll know if I should even bother.
5 Answers
Chase Lee
29,275 PointsHi Daniel. Sorry for the inconvenience you have experienced.
Treehouse doesn't have any set "rules" or "policy" on what answers can be posted and what cannot. Nor do they have hired moderators with tons of training. They're just students like you and me who want to help people learn how to code.
They idea is like what you said, they want students to learn, not just to pass tests. Unfortunately, because of the 2 things stated above. The line between learning and "test skipping" quickly becomes vague.
I feel for you, I know I have run into many problems with answers that don't make any sense. My suggestions on what you can do are:
- Ask in your original post that if the moderator takes out some code, he/she would help you through the question.
- Just do it the hard way and keep watching the video's until you get it.
- Do the "cheaters" version and just C/P the question right into Google. (I found this post doing so. I don't know if you've seen it, or if it's helpful. But it's worth a shot. https://teamtreehouse.com/community/css-flexbox-final-challenge-resolved)
I hope that answers your question.
Chase
Daniel Gauthier
15,000 PointsHey Chase,
Thanks for the reply, but this was more meant for the moderator who has been altering the posts.
I'm also the one helping people, by providing them with the answers as well as the explanations for why we do things this way or that way. I actually have the exact same answers that were edited out in another post where a second student was as confused as the first one I helped.
After seeing this happen a few times I threw up this post and sent it to support, but since it's late on a Sunday I'm still waiting. The general point is that there should be set guidelines for what can and can't be posted to prevent students from posting the kinds of things Treehouse doesn't want on the forums (which will require easily found guidelines), and especially moderators altering posts on a whim.
Thanks again for the reply!
Chase Lee
29,275 PointsLOL! Okay, sorry for bugging you.
Yeah, the guidelines would be nice. I think the easiest way to avoid that kind of stuff (the way I've been doing it). Is by not "throwing up" a block of code. But just trying to tell them what to do in plain text. That seems to help, and will probably avoid moderators who ONLY want to edit out code.
Daniel Gauthier
15,000 PointsHey Chase,
Definitely not a bother at all.
I feel there's a large discussion point here that should be clarified to clear up the blurred lines, so with some luck I'll be able to at least get the conversation started once support gets back to me.
Have a great night!
Rob Allessi
8,600 PointsHey Daniel,
I'm really sorry to hear of this. I'm looking into the matter personally. There are times in which posts do need to be modified for various reasons, but it's expected of all moderators and staff alike to leave a reasoning as to why a post was moderated.
Daniel Gauthier
15,000 PointsHey Rob,
I received word from support and Guil below, so thanks for checking this out.
Guil Hernandez
Treehouse TeacherHey Daniel Gauthier,
Sorry I didn't give you the heads-up sooner. We currently have a lot of front-end and web design students taking the flexbox course, so we didn't want the answers to the final code challenge given away here in the Community.
I totally understand that you were simply trying to help a student -- I appreciate that. And your solution was wonderfully explained. But instead of giving away all the answers up front, we prefer to guide students and point them to resources that will help them find the answers on their own.
Giving away the answer to just one student can spoil some of the fun for hundreds of other students. :)
Daniel Gauthier
15,000 PointsHey Guil,
First off, thanks for the reply.
I've went back and forth about whether it was worth posting a lengthy response here, and while I'm not confident any change will come of it, I think they're worth some thought. So, there are three main topics that have created this confusion, and I'm going to try to be as brief as possible when explaining my thoughts below.
On the Topic of Faceless Moderation
This was the number one issue for me initially, since I've put in some time trying to help people on the forums lately. Seeing a post get altered, without any notification, and left in a state that rendered the time put in wasted, makes you question if the time you put in helping people is worth the effort at all.
As I stated in my initial post, there's some concern when you think about how some random unknown person can change something written below your name without you ever knowing. While it's unlikely that anyone would abuse this, the potential is definitely there and the person who initially posted wouldn't be any wiser about it.
When a post is altered, I feel the person altering the post should at the very least give an explanation of why it was altered.
On the Topic of the Lost Student
In my initial post I referred to the two issues that created this entire mess in the first place, and in your reply you touched on one of them.
I'll preface this by saying that you're an excellent instructor, Guil, and the Flexbox videos were well produced. That said, the question I quote in the initial post has proven to be confusing. So confusing that most posts about it don't say the usual, "Why isn't this code working?", but rather, "I don't understand this question!".
You ended your post with your view about spoiling things for hundred of other students and while I can appreciate that, when simply understanding the question is the issue, it becomes less about directly giving answers away and more about telling them what the question even means. So problem one here is the wording of that particular question.
The second part of this topic is our differing views about how to approach the "lost student". While I can understand the concept of "Having the answers on the site will make it easy for people to cheat and not learn," I feel that this is a much deeper issue than that. I'll use lists to demonstrate this point to break this up since it's starting to read like a novel:
Giving Answers Directly to the Lost Student
- Student is stumped.
- Student posts to the forums asking for help.
- Response takes 10 minutes.
- Response gives the answers in code form with in-depth explanation of why the code works.
- Student uses the code, gets a bonus mini-lecture, and moves on.
Guiding the Lost Student by Pointing Them to Resources
- Student is stumped.
- Student posts to the forums asking for help.
- Response takes 5 minutes (less time since it's likely to be "Check here!" "Rewatch the videos!")
- Student rewatches video, is still stumped.
- Student tries a Google search and is confused by the advanced Stack Overflow topic.
- Student eventually finds obscure website with understandable solution, but it takes over an hour and they're frustrated at this point. (Where is this fun you speak of?)
Obviously these could go a little differently, but if you're giving them the code and explaining why we use the code, they're more likely to get more value with less frustration.
On the topic of cheating your own learning path, as Chase noted above, the answers to almost every challenge on this site can be found with a quick Google search. So in the end, if a student is going to cheat their way through, it's a choice they're making that we can't really affect at that point.
I feel it's a hundred times more useful to post the answers in full, and explain them. Not every student is going to come to the forums, but those who do should get more than "Rewatch the video!" or "Read the documentation!". The video is the guiding part. If they're on the forums, they're hoping to find help, and we all know how frustrating it is to be stumped by something and not have a clear answer to analyze is.
On the Topic of Posting Guidelines
The final topic here is the lack of posting guidelines. Every heavily used forum has them, and if the Treehouse stance is to link to the documentation of languages, or tell people where they might find the answers you could very easily give and explain to them, we should be aware of that.
I'll close this out by thanking everyone who responded to this post, and especially to Guil for taking the time to engage on these topics.
I love the site and I've been enjoying this community, keep up the great work!