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How to Land Your Dream Job: April Daley
61:01 with Ryan CarsonIn this live conversation, Treehouse Founder and CEO Ryan Carson will facilitate a conversation with Software Engineer April Daley. They will discuss April's experience successfully transitioning to tech as a career and what advice they have for folx who want to land their dream job in tech.
[MUSIC]
0:00
Hello everybody, welcome to this exciting,
exciting interview.
0:04
I can't wait to start asking questions,
and learning more about April.
0:10
I just wanna welcome you to our second
installment of How to Land Your Dream Job.
0:15
I'm just so excited to be here
with you all today, I'm so
0:21
excited to be with April.
0:24
I know that today is a very
big day with the US elections.
0:26
I just wanna acknowledge that
everyone is completely on edge,
0:31
including me, while the votes are counted.
0:34
We may even get definitive results from
Georgia while we're doing this interview.
0:36
So let's just support each other
through this stressful time, and
0:40
keep it really supportive.
0:44
So at Treehouse,
0:46
we are taking steps towards making
the industry more equitable and inclusive.
0:47
Our mission is to literally
diversify the tech industry.
0:53
And we want to empower under-represented
communities to succeed in tech,
0:56
while challenging the industry to improve.
1:01
This is why it's so important for
us to bring in folks who align with this
1:04
mission, so they can share about
how to get the right job in tech.
1:09
Before we begin,
I do wanna mention that there
1:13
is an event code of conduct
posted in the reception.
1:17
Please take time to review
the code of conduct, and
1:22
know that we take that very seriously for
these events.
1:25
There's also live captioning,
the link is provided in reception,
1:28
as well as in this chat.
1:33
I am happy today to present
April Daley as the guest speaker for
1:34
this session of How to
Land Your Dream Job.
1:39
April Daley is a New York City based
software engineer at Etsy, and
1:43
formally a journalist at Mental Floss and
Us Weekly.
1:47
She is passionate about productivity apps,
and opening doors for
1:50
engineers who took
non-traditional paths to tech.
1:54
In her free time,
she volunteers as a college advisor for
1:58
Minds Matter New York City, and
watches way too much TV, me too.
2:02
Everyone please welcome April Daley,
[SOUND], so excited to have you here.
2:06
>> So excited to be here.
2:12
>> So first question,
we'll get right into it.
2:13
And everybody, remember that you can ask
questions in the chat if you have them,
2:16
and my team will grab those questions and
feed them to me.
2:20
So please say hello to everybody in
the chat and get those questions coming.
2:24
So at Treehouse, we know a computer
science degree isn't the only route to
2:28
a lasting career in tech.
2:32
Can you expand on your backgrounds, and
2:34
how you found yourself as
a software engineer at Etsy?
2:37
When did you first decided you wanted
to pursue software engineering?
2:40
>> Yeah, I mean, I think,
as you mentioned,
2:44
I decided I wanted to be a journalist
at 13, and that's what I did.
2:47
>> Wow.
2:52
>> I went for college for it, [LAUGH]
>> That's great.
2:53
>> Surprising, [LAUGH], I went to college
for it, got my degree in journalism, and
2:55
was lucky enough to work at magazines and
then at digital media for a few years.
3:00
And I liked my job well enough,
but I think at a certain point,
3:05
I realized that there was no
job above me that I wanted.
3:09
And so for me,
that was just taking a look, okay,
3:13
maybe there's something else that I need
to look into, where am I going, exactly?
3:16
And so I wish, in the TV version of this,
the light bulb goes off, and
3:21
it's like, coding, exactly, of course.
3:25
>> [LAUGH]
>> But that's not-
3:28
>> Life is easier that way.
3:30
>> Exactly, that's not quite how it went.
3:31
>> [LAUGH]
>> I spent probably a year sort of just
3:33
talking to people.
3:36
I thought I wanted to
stay in journalism and
3:38
maybe do something that was on
the border of journalism and tech.
3:40
And so I just started talking to
people who did those kinds of jobs.
3:43
People who actually are doing a lot of
election graphs right now, I would look at
3:46
those graphs and be like, those
are really cool, important information.
3:50
I thought that's what I wanted to do.
3:54
And after talking to people and going to
conferences that cover this kind of stuff,
3:56
I sort of realized, you know what?
4:00
These people do a lot
of data manipulation,
4:02
there's lots of stats of involved.
4:04
And I was like, I actually don't care
about the numbers, I think I just wanna-
4:06
>> [LAUGH] Nope-
4:09
>> Build cool stuff, yeah.
4:10
>> [LAUGH] I love it.
4:11
>> I was like,
I don't care about the data, [LAUGH],
4:12
I just wanna build these cool graphics.
4:13
And that was my first inch of,
maybe coding,
4:15
maybe it doesn't have to be journalism,
maybe I can just do a full switch.
4:17
And so at that point,
I took a part-time Frontend class,
4:21
just to sort of test it out.
4:24
I was like, if I'm gonna give up, in
a way, on the career I decided on at 13,
4:26
I had to make sure this is
really what I wanted to do.
4:31
>> Right, did you know any-
>> So I took this part-time class.
4:34
>> Did you know anybody else in tech?
4:36
I mean,
how did you find people to talk to?
4:38
>> That's a good point, I mean, I think
sort of the perk of being a journalist, in
4:40
a way, is that you are very used to sort
of asking random people random questions.
4:45
>> [LAUGH] All right.
4:49
>> And so I did ask around,
I asked people if they knew people,
4:50
and I got some context that way.
4:55
And some of it was, I just got on
LinkedIn and cold-messaged people.
4:58
>> Wow.
5:02
>> People whose work I liked,
at places like New York Times and 538.
5:03
And I'd just be like, hey,
I'm thinking of making a switch,
5:07
would you talk to someone
who wants to do this?
5:10
>> Wow.
5:12
>> And you'd be surprised at how many
people were just like, yeah, sure.
5:13
I'll hop on a call with you,
I'll get coffee with you, so-
5:15
>> My gosh, all right.
5:17
>> Yeah.
5:18
>> Props
>> [LAUGH] Thanks, so, yeah, I mean,
5:19
after I took the Frontend class,
that was my test of, okay,
5:23
can I do this, and do I like this,
in a more low-stakes way.
5:27
And I liked it,
a lot of coding clicked for me.
5:31
I was enjoying it more than
what I was doing in the day.
5:36
And so at that point I was like,
okay, I'm gonna do the switch.
5:39
And eventually, that led me to
going to the Grace Hopper Program,
5:42
which is part of
Full Stack Academy's boot camp.
5:45
And I did that for three or four months,
staying on as a teaching assistant for
5:48
another three months, and
5:52
then starting the first-
>> Did you hold down a day job while you
5:54
were at the boot camp, or
did you do it at night, or-
5:57
>> I did not, I mean,
6:00
my first plan was to do that.
6:02
And I quickly realized that
going full-time to boot camp and
6:04
trying to keep a job,
there's just no way I could have done it.
6:07
And so I had to quit my job-
>> This sounds scary.
6:10
>> Saved up money beforehand,
yeah, I was terrified in a way.
6:13
I had done a lot of research
to know I could do this.
6:16
But, yeah, quitting a job when
you're sort of mid-career,
6:19
explaining to people that, hey, I'm just
gonna do this completely different thing,
6:22
[LAUGH]
>> Right, what did you family say?
6:27
>> Was interesting.
6:30
>> What did your family or
loved ones say about it?
6:30
>> My family was actually
really supportive.
6:32
I think they were just sort of,
6:35
you seem like you've been
researching this for a while.
6:36
>> [LAUGH]
>> Cuz I did do a year of research.
6:38
And so it wasn't just like, I came out of
nowhere one week and was just like, hey,
6:40
I'm switching careers.
6:44
>> [LAUGH] Got it.
6:45
>> Yeah, they were really supportive,
I moved back home for a little bit of it,
6:46
just to save on rent,
cuz I obviously wasn't working a job.
6:50
I don't know that I could have done it
if I didn't have a home to move into,
6:54
my parents' home.
6:58
If I didn't have a job before, so
I could save up the money and prep for
6:59
it, that definitely is a part
that was really vital.
7:04
And I feel like no one talked about that,
[LAUGH], when I was talking to people
7:07
about doing boot camps, was,
well, how do you afford this?
7:10
How do you not have a job?
7:13
And for me, it was just a matter of,
I had to prep so much in advance so
7:15
I could start saving-
>> Got it.
7:18
>> And also do this, save on rent.
7:20
>> Got it, cool, got it, okay, great.
7:22
>> Yeah, and so, yeah, Grace Hopper,
after that, I TA'd there for three months.
7:23
And I was job hunting while TA'ing, and so
7:28
I was lucky enough to start my
first engineering job right after,
7:30
at this company called Quartz,
which is a media company.
7:34
>> Yeah, I remember Quartz, yep.
7:37
>> Yeah, so it was a nice mix, in a way,
I guess, of journalism and my new career.
7:39
Cuz I was at a media company,
even though I wasn't a journalist.
7:44
And I was there for a little less
than a year, and then unfortunately,
7:46
COVID times meant they had
to lay off half the staff.
7:50
>> Wow.
7:53
>> And I was part of that half, so
I found myself having to do a job hunt-
7:54
>> Wow.
7:58
>> In the pandemic, which I'm sure
sounds familiar to many of you, and
7:59
luckily enough,
was able to end up at Etsy.
8:03
>> Got it.
8:06
>> And that's where I am now.
8:07
>> So the job at Quartz,
what was the job title?
8:08
>> I was a web engineer.
8:11
>> Got it.
8:13
>> Yes.
8:13
>> So let's really zoom in on that moment,
cuz I think that's the moment that
8:14
the audience probably will wonder,
whoa, wait, how did that happen?
8:18
So how did you get the interview,
what was the interview like?
8:23
What was the job search process like?
8:29
Could you just really zoom in on that,
walk folks through what you did?
8:31
>> Yeah, of course, so
while I was TA'ing, like I said,
8:35
I was sort of in full job hunt mode.
8:38
Cuz TA'ing is, it's only three months,
at three months, you're done.
8:41
I was making a little bit of money,
which was nice-
8:44
>> And TA'ing at the boot camp?
8:46
>> At the boot camp, yeah, so
if you are an assistant for
8:48
the next cohort that comes up behind you.
8:51
>> Got it.
8:53
>> And so I was in full job hunt mode,
and for me, that meant,
8:54
I was starting off every morning
practicing algorithms and data structures,
8:58
which is a thing that we had some
introduction to in boot camp, but just,
9:03
there just wasn't enough time
to really dig into that.
9:08
So I really knew that that's
a big part of job interviews, and
9:11
it felt like that was
sort of my weakest thing.
9:15
>> Got it.
9:18
>> So morning, focusing on that,
studying that.
9:18
And then I was applying to ten jobs a day.
9:22
>> Wow.
9:26
>> I know, it was very aggressive.
9:27
>> That's crazy.
9:29
>> But I was like, you know what, [LAUGH],
9:29
I'm in a financial position where
I need to work right after this.
9:31
I can't have a month in between when I'm
done with boot camp and starting a job.
9:33
I'm just not financial able to do that,
so I was hustling-
9:38
>> Wow, how did you find those ten,
9:41
how did you find ten a day?
9:43
Cuz that's, I mean,
how many days did you do for it,
9:44
how many total jobs did you apply for?
9:46
>> Yeah, man, I should have maybe
tracked how many I applied to over time.
9:47
But it was definitely ten for
at least a month and a half.
9:53
>> Wow, so we're talking 200 jobs, maybe.
9:57
>> Probably, that sounds about right.
10:00
I did take a break on weekends,
I was only applying during the weekdays.
10:02
But, yeah, that sounds about right.
10:06
So I found these jobs through a mix of,
I'm in a few Slack groups,
10:08
Slack groups for
women in tech, which is great.
10:12
My boot camp has a Slack group,
so there was part of that.
10:15
I'd find some on LinkedIn,
I tried to avoid easy applies on LinkedIn.
10:21
Those are the jobs where you can just,
you don't have to do anything,
10:26
you just click a button.
10:29
Cuz I'd be like, all right, well,
everybody's gonna easy-apply.
10:30
But I would find some through LinkedIn.
10:34
I would find some through AngelList,
which if you're not familiar,
10:36
is a website that has a lot of more
startups that are looking for people.
10:40
>> Smart.
10:44
>> And then the other one is just,
I had a list that I had been keeping,
10:45
of just companies I liked.
10:50
Just, I started that list probably,
right, first at boot camp, and
10:52
I just kept updating it.
10:54
And so I would also go through the list
and look at their career page, and
10:55
see, okay, are they hiring, yeah.
10:58
>> Got it, and
what job titles were you looking for?
11:00
Cuz obviously, you're junior, so-
>> I actually specifically was not
11:02
looking for junior jobs, because I felt
like the jobs that had junior in the title
11:07
we're gonna probably try to underpay me.
11:12
And I felt, I don't know,
it felt very hand-holdy to me.
11:14
And I was like, you know what,
I feel like I have enough experience and
11:17
enough hustle that I
should be considered for
11:20
a software engineer position-
>> Wow.
11:22
>> Or a full-stack engineer-
>> Great.
11:24
>> Or a web engineer, yeah.
>> Okay, well,
11:28
well done on your confidence, I love that.
11:28
>> [LAUGH] Thank you.
11:29
>> I think some folks were wondering,
wait, which boot camp did you go to,
11:31
what was the name of it?
11:34
>> Full Stack Academy, and then part
of that is the Grace Hopper program,
11:35
which is specifically a program for
women and non-binary people.
11:39
>> Awesome, I'm a huge Grace Hopper fan,
and AnitaB fan, so that's awesome.
11:42
>> It's a great program.
11:47
>> Okay, cool, so all right,
so you basically,
11:48
during the TA period,
were you being paid by the boot camp's TA?
11:51
>> Yes.
11:55
>> Got you, so you have kind of-
>> Yeah, [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGH]
11:56
>> Yes, got it, so at this point,
11:59
you're like, all right,
it's essentially my job to apply for
12:00
jobs while I hold down this TA job.
12:02
>> Yes.
12:04
>> You did ten a day, you looked for
straight-up software engineering jobs,
12:05
not kind of entry-level junior,
which is fascinating, and-
12:10
>> I was looking at the years required,
12:15
though, to be honest.
12:16
I wasn't applying for jobs that were
seven years, or anything like that.
12:17
I was looking for one to three years,
is about what they're requiring.
12:21
>> Perfect.
12:25
>> On the title, yeah,
I wasn't applying for junior.
12:26
>> Awesome, and I think another question
we always get, I'm kinda going sideways,
12:28
I need to focus on the questions
I'm supposed to ask, but-
12:31
>> [LAUGH] That's okay.
12:34
>> But what was your resume like, and
12:35
can you give us a rough idea of
the sections, and what you included?
12:37
>> That is a great question, we had
a lot of support from the boot camp,
12:42
in terms of formatting the resume.
12:47
So, man, I'm trying to remember
what terms my resume looked like.
12:49
I do have a section on there
that has tools and skills.
12:53
I don't remember what the exact header is,
but it had JavaScript and CSS,
12:58
all of the language and
specific things that I knew.
13:02
>> Okay, got it.
13:05
>> And that was towards the top.
13:06
I had my schooling below that,
just because Grace Hopper
13:07
was the most tech thing at this
point that's on my resume.
13:12
And so I kinda tend to move
that above my work experience.
13:17
And then I also had my TA position
as the first work experience.
13:21
And then I think my most recent job, I
sorta got the advice to basically remove,
13:25
I had a pretty lengthy journalism resume,
and they were like,
13:30
remove it all, no one cares.
13:34
>> You were like,
>> [LAUGH] A little bit,
13:36
a little stabbed through the heart,
I worked so hard for that.
13:39
>> Yeah, I love that, nope.
13:41
>> But they were just like, no one cares.
13:44
>> [LAUGH]
>> [INAUDIBLE], all right.
13:45
>> Yeah, so I had to remove all that.
13:47
And then with the space I
gained from removing past jobs,
13:49
I was able to put projects.
13:51
>> Got it, projects.
13:53
>> Which actually,
now that I think about it,
13:54
projects might have been higher up on the
resume, I haven't looked at this in a bit.
13:55
But just because, again, that's the most
relevant thing that I have to offer.
13:58
And so I had three projects on
there that I had done in boot camp.
14:02
>> Okay, wow, this is so great,
thanks for sharing all the details.
14:05
The last thing I'd like to know about
this kinda job search process is,
14:09
you're putting ten a day in,
we're talking 250 job applications.
14:13
Then how many sort of,
let's think about this like a funnel.
14:17
So then what was, how many did you get at
the next stage of the funnel, a reply or
14:23
we're interested?
14:27
And then how many interviews did you get,
and then how many job offers did you get?
14:28
So walk us through that funnel, roughly.
14:31
>> As someone who likes productivity,
has the numbers, I'm really surprised I
14:34
haven't tracked this, but-
>> [LAUGH] Rough numbers are fine.
14:37
>> [LAUGH] Yeah, I'm thinking, in that
first job search, I must have done 30
14:42
phone screens, which is the first step of-
>> Got it.
14:48
>> Where you're usually talking to
a recruiter, and it's not technical.
14:52
It's just sort of, what are you
looking for, what are your values,
14:55
here are our values, [INAUDIBLE]
>> So I think about 10,
14:57
12% got a phone screen, okay, cool.
15:00
Then walk us through the next
stage of the funnel.
15:04
>> And then after the phone screen,
usually the next step is some sort
15:05
of coding question, or
a first smaller coding thing with people.
15:11
For those, I feel like I must
have done 15 of those, so
15:17
probably about half of the phone screens.
15:21
That was a mix of, sometimes I'd have
a phone screen and be like, actually,
15:24
this is not really-
>> What you-
15:27
>> I'm not that interested, yeah.
15:29
>> Got it.
15:30
>> Or if, I try to not have money
conversations till later in the process.
15:31
But sometimes, if they kept pushing it,
and they'd tell me the range, and
15:35
I'd be like, no.
15:38
>> No.
15:39
>> I didn't switch careers for that, no.
15:40
>> [LAUGH]
>> So-
15:41
>> Power to you, that's awesome,
15:43
way to go.
15:45
>> So mix of that, yeah, and I think I
bring up the money thing a lot just to say
15:45
that, I feel like sometimes, boot camp
grads or self-taught grads get lowballed,
15:49
specifically because people are like,
15:52
well, you don't have
a computer science degree.
15:54
And I refuse to let that happen,
because I was like,
15:57
I know what other people have gotten,
I've seen other salaries.
15:59
>> [INAUDIBLE]
>> And I know-
16:03
>> Good work.
16:04
>> That I could get that too,
I'm not gonna let you lowball me.
16:05
>> I love that, way to go.
16:07
>> [LAUGH] So, yeah,
I'm always vocal about saying that.
16:08
Cuz I think that other grads should also
hold people to those same standards.
16:11
Look at what the average
engineering salary range is for
16:14
someone entry-level in your community,
your area, and
16:17
that's what you should ask for-
>> That's [INAUDIBLE], that's it-
16:20
>> Don't feel [INAUDIBLE] take less.
16:23
>> Yeah, awesome, so it's 200, 250 down
to 30 phone screens, down to roughly
16:25
15 kind of, were they projects/coding
kinda tests, that's what that could mean?
16:31
>> Yeah, it was a mix, yeah,
some of them were coding projects.
16:36
Most of them, though,
I would say, actually,
16:42
were just an hour-long pair
programming with someone.
16:46
>> That sounds terrifying, right, for
new folks, was it, or tell us about that.
16:51
>> Yeah, I mean, it's terrifying, just
because you don't know, you have no idea.
16:56
It could be a computer
science-y algorithm question,
17:02
it could be practical coding, right?
17:05
You just don't know
which one it's gonna be.
17:08
And so, yeah, it's hard to prep for it.
17:09
I feel like studying for job interviews,
I just have to study all of the things all
17:14
of the time, which is definitely
really stressful and time-consuming.
17:18
So in that way, it's tough, but
17:22
I think the other way is,
I like talking to people.
17:25
And so I try to treat those interviews as,
that's what it is, right?
17:30
We're just talking,
we're problem-solving together.
17:33
They tell you in boot camp,
which I think stuck in my head,
17:35
is that you just have to keep talking.
17:38
>> [INAUDIBLE]
>> Just, what are you thinking,
17:40
even when you're stuck.
17:42
You're just like, I'm not quite sure
about this thing, but I'm thinking this.
17:43
Just, you have to keep communicating,
and I think people value that a lot,
17:48
because not everyone
does that in interviews.
17:51
>> Got it.
17:53
>> So that's my main take that I just kept
thinking about, is just keep talking.
17:54
[LAUGH]
>> That's so smart, right, cuz they're
17:57
not expecting you to know exactly what
to do without pausing and thinking.
18:00
>> Exactly.
18:04
>> So you're just thinking out loud,
is what you're doing.
18:05
>> Right.
18:07
>> That's such a good pick.
18:07
>> And that's a really hard skill,
to be honest, when you're nervous, to
18:08
just keep talking, even though you're not
quite sure if what you're saying is right.
18:12
So that's definitely something I practiced
with my other TAs, and we'd interview each
18:16
other, and just code together, and just
keep talking and practicing that skill.
18:21
>> That's so good, thanks, April.
18:26
>> Yeah.
18:27
>> Okay, so I'm gonna go back
to my script here, sorry team.
18:27
>> [LAUGH]
>> But your answers are so good,
18:30
interesting, I was really into it.
18:32
Okay, so what advice do you have for
folks who are in the learning stage
18:34
of their journey, knowing that eventually
they wanna land a full-time job?
18:38
So they're not ready to apply yet,
what kind of tips do you have?
18:42
>> Yeah, so the first sort of practical
tip, I asked one of my friends of boot
18:45
camp grads, what's something that
she wished she would have done.
18:49
And shout-out to her, but
the advice she gave me was,
18:53
I would have thought more about system
design and object-oriented programming,
18:56
which I was like, that's such good advice.
19:00
Because that's a thing that oftentimes in
boot camps, or in self-taught programs,
19:02
it gets missed, cuz you're sorta
learning the tangible coding skills.
19:07
>> Interesting.
19:11
>> But that's a thing you get interviewed
on, you get asked in interviews for sure.
19:12
So it's a thing I had to teach myself
after, and something I wish I would have
19:14
spent a little bit of time every week,
while I was learning, just brushing up on.
19:18
>> Got it.
19:23
>> So that's the first thing.
19:23
I think the second thing I would say is,
as you're learning to program,
19:25
and you're learning to code, there's
always stuff that you sort of get, but
19:29
you don't fully understand.
19:34
But you just gotta push through,
cuz they're like, all right,
19:36
I know enough to build the thing.
19:39
I would say, keep track of those things-
>> Interesting.
19:40
>> Keep a list of those things, and so
19:44
when you're doing the actual
curriculum part and you're in job prep,
19:45
that's the stuff you need to go back and
make sure you really understand it.
19:49
>> Got it.
19:52
>> Cuz you never know who's gonna ask you
sort of a trivia question about some of
19:53
those things.
19:57
And that's the time you really need to
be able to understand it and explain it.
19:58
But I think that's more valuable
than Thing I try to do for
20:01
a few weeks is learn
something completely new.
20:07
I tried to learn GraphQL,
which I didn't really know.
20:10
And I feel like it's more valuable to
really drill down on the things you didn't
20:13
get rather than trying to master something
new cuz you're not gonna master.
20:17
I'm not gonna master GraphQL in a month
before I get a job, not well enough to be
20:21
able to interview in it or talk super
deeply about it and interview anyway.
20:26
It makes more sense to really hone down
on the things that you're learning.
20:30
So, cuz that's your, that's what you
have your expertise in right now.
20:34
>> Got it.
So as you're learning those things you're
20:38
like, I'm a little squishy on that,
write it down and and know that,
20:41
okay, I need to be once a week
going back through those things and
20:45
kind of diving in and
figuring out how they do work.
20:48
Right, and maybe not even, I don't know
if once a week cuz I think the thing with
20:52
the boot camp mindset is that you don't
just understand everything all the time,
20:55
it will start to click as you build on it,
which is fair.
20:59
So maybe not once a week but
just being knowledgeable of those
21:03
things because at the very least
while you're interviewing or
21:06
whenever you're prep time
is you should go back.
21:09
>> Got it.
21:11
So that's a lot of valuable
tips on the knowledge part.
21:12
What about on the networking part while
you're learning, any tips on that?
21:16
>> Yeah,
the networking part is super crucial, and
21:19
I do think going back
to how I got the job.
21:22
The Courts job wasn't one of those jobs
I applied to ten a day surprisingly.
21:25
I had a friend who went through
the boot camp before me and
21:31
we sort of stayed in contact.
21:34
So she knew when I was going through
the program, and she worked at Courts and
21:36
was like, hey, I really like it here,
you should come interview.
21:40
And I was actually sort of
hesitant because I was like,
21:44
I don't know about media, I'm really
trying to make a clean break here.
21:46
>> [LAUGH] Great, get out.
21:50
>> [LAUGH] Yeah, and
21:53
she was like, no, but just come interview,
I think you'll like it.
21:53
And I just I really liked the people and
apparently they liked me and
21:55
that's how I got the job.
21:58
So I say that I have to say that
hustle and get the interviews out, but
21:59
also network is super, super important.
22:03
And the way I grew mine I guess
is when I started boot camp,
22:05
before I was job hunting, I basically told
everyone that I was doing this boot camp.
22:09
>> Okay.
22:15
>> This is the easiest way to network is
just tell everyone because you don't know
22:16
who someone that you know knows, right.
22:20
Someone might know someone who
works at a company you like.
22:23
And so I started that process
before I was actually job hunting,
22:26
because the best time to network
is when you don't need anything.
22:29
>> Right.
>> When you're just trying to make
22:32
connections.
22:33
>> So true.
22:34
>> [LAUGH] It's less nerve racking for
you too, right, cuz you're like,
22:35
I don't feel like I'm using this person or
anything like that.
22:38
I'm just talking to them and
they're just talking to me.
22:40
And then you have that connection for
when you're actually job hunting.
22:43
>> Smart.
>> Then you can reach back out and
22:46
be like, hey, remember me,
now I kinda sort of need something.
22:48
>> Right.
22:50
>> [LAUGH] It's not your first ask.
22:51
>> Yes.
22:54
>> Yeah, so I would say it's like as
you're learning when you're in that phase
22:56
where it's low stakes,
that's when you just start telling people.
22:59
Or if you know that someone works at a
company you like or know someone who knows
23:01
someone, that's the time to be like,
hey, you mind connecting us so
23:04
we can just chat-
>> Got it.
23:08
>> About what's it like to work there.
23:09
>> That's awesome, what good advice.
23:11
So if you were to do it again
would you give yourself some
23:12
sort of daily quota of number
of people to network with or
23:17
something or
would you just totally freewheel it?
23:22
How would you attack that?
23:26
>> It's a good question.
23:29
I ended up freewheeling it.
23:30
And also, to be honest,
with applying to ten jobs a day,
23:32
the phone screens were starting to pile up
and it was just like, I just don't have
23:36
time to do all these phone screens and
also talk to this many people a day.
23:40
So it was sort of just
when I could fit it in.
23:44
>> But yeah, I mean if your phone screens,
if you don't have coding practice and
23:48
phone screens and all that taken up your
time, then I think it does totally make
23:52
sense to be like, all right, the very
least I'm gonna have a quota of reaching
23:56
out to, I don't know, three people a week
or something that feels reasonable.
23:59
And trying to set up these,
in this COVID world, these Zoom chats.
24:03
>> Yes.
24:07
Yeah, I've found I get a lot more Zoom
meetings now than I used to get in person.
24:08
It's bonkers,
I can get meetings now a lot faster.
24:14
People do these kind of
25 minute chit chats.
24:18
And so you're right, it's much easier to
get kind of Zoom networking sessions.
24:21
All right.
>> Yeah, I guess.
24:26
>> Okay, so next question, what skills
from your journalism roles or any other
24:28
previous experience has transferred over
to your role as a software engineer?
24:34
>> Yeah, I mean I think the most obvious
thing to me is communication, right.
24:41
So much more of the job than you think
it is is about communicating, right.
24:44
I have to pair with other engineers and
I have to be able to communicate what I'm
24:49
thinking, be able to ask the right
questions about what they're thinking.
24:52
If I build an AB test of something,
right, and it goes well,
24:56
I have to be able to write up what
happened and write the documentation.
25:00
There's a lot of documentation that
needs to be there in coding that people
25:05
don't realize.
25:09
And so I think that that is
a direct translation to me.
25:09
Just like I have these new skills, great,
but I always had this communication
25:12
skills of being able to express myself and
ask the right questions.
25:17
So I think that's the first one.
25:21
And I think the second thing is just
the question part, the curiosity.
25:22
I became a journalist cuz I was fascinated
by people and by stories, and I think
25:26
that's helpful in engineering because
I'm always the person who was like,
25:30
okay, but why does that work?
25:35
Or why are we doing that?
25:37
Which I've been told is
a valuable thing on the team, but
25:40
also it's good to be a person
who's asking those questions.
25:44
We're building this thing,
how does it affect the user?
25:47
Why are we building it?
25:51
And so I think that's made me
a better empathetic engineer,
25:52
just thinking about the user,
thinking about the why and
25:56
not just about sort of just the technical
details of what we're building.
26:00
>> Right, got it, okay.
26:05
So communication is a big part
of the skill set you brought
26:06
from journalism,
asking questions is a big part of that.
26:11
And I've interviewed probably
thousands of people over my life and
26:18
had probably hundreds of
thousands of conversations, and
26:21
you're a really good conversationalist,
you're easy to talk to.
26:24
>> Thanks.
26:28
[LAUGH]
>> So I can imagine,
26:29
I'm actually introverted,
26:31
I imagine there's a lot of people in
the audience that are introverted.
26:33
And what do folks do if they
just don't naturally feel
26:37
comfortable conversing,
especially with strangers?
26:41
Do you have any tips on that?
26:46
>> Yeah, I mean I think in terms of the
networking branch, I fully acknowledge it.
26:49
I have no problem reaching out
to random people and be like,
26:53
tell me about your life,
but that's not everyone.
26:56
And so that's why I think it's helpful to
go through people you already know, right.
26:59
>> Got it.
>> So at least you know that like-
27:03
>> Introductions.
27:05
>> A person on the other, yeah,
27:06
the introduction you don't
have to do that part.
27:07
When you're talking to someone who you've
been connected with you at least know that
27:10
they know what they signed up for
and they wanna talk to you and
27:14
they're there for it.
27:17
And so I think, I would hope that that
makes it a little bit more comfortable,
27:18
a little less like nerve wracking.
27:21
You're not talking to a random.
27:23
And I think what I think of
on the job communication,
27:25
I don't know that communicating
well necessarily means that you
27:29
need to be the loudest person in
the room or the one who talks the most.
27:33
I think if you're just a person who's
writing documentation that no one else
27:38
wants to write, that's good communication.
27:42
It doesn't need to be about
having conversations with
27:44
everyone
>> Got it.
27:47
Okay, that's valuable, thank you.
27:49
One thing that's helped me in the past,
27:52
I don't know if it's helpful
to anybody in the audiences.
27:54
I tend to just use
a technique called mirroring,
27:56
which you essentially just ask someone,
what are you really passionate about?
27:59
And they'll start talking and then
they'll get to an end of a sentence and
28:04
they'll say something like,
I just really love helping people.
28:08
And you just say, helping people,
and then they'll go, yeah.
28:12
And then they'll talk, talk,
talk, and then they'll say,
28:15
because I'm really, I just love airplanes,
really love airplanes.
28:19
And essentially it's a skill,
letting people talk and
28:23
them connecting with you, and it's an easy
thing to do if you're introverted, so.
28:26
>> That's a really good tip.
28:31
>> Yeah,
it's something that's helped me a lot.
28:32
Okay, a lot of great
questions flooding in.
28:35
I wanna get through a couple
more of the primary questions,
28:37
and then we'll get started in
the Q&A in about ten minutes.
28:41
Next question, as a boot camp grad,
once you got the first role,
28:45
so once you're at Courts,
did you feel adequately prepared?
28:50
>> In a way, I mean I think that something
that's helped me a lot with my imposter
28:58
syndrome, right, that you have as I think
as a career changer, as a boot camp grad.
29:01
Is that when I think about computer
science grads who get engineering jobs,
29:05
a lot of computer science grads
have become engineers at companies
29:11
that first time they don't
know that much about coding.
29:16
They know a lot about computer science and
a lot about theoretical stuff, but
29:21
not actually about building the thing
cuz that's not what a lot of programs
29:24
are built on.
29:27
So that made me feel a little bit better
cuz it's like, you are no different than
29:29
someone who's a new engineer who
had a computer science degree,
29:32
they would also be
learning a ton on the job.
29:35
You're not disadvantaged in that that way.
29:37
And so in that way I felt prepared,
29:39
more prepared from a boot camp
cuz I had those actual, tangible,
29:41
I can build the thing somewhat, somewhat,
as much as an entry level engineer can.
29:45
I know how to build the thing,
they hired me for a reason.
29:51
So I felt okay about that, but
there are certain things that
29:54
I don't know that you can
learn until you're on the job.
29:58
Things like how to translate
a design that a designer gives you.
30:01
Into the actual code, how to have
those common negotiations about, okay,
30:06
this is really hard to build, maybe
you can tweak the design a little bit.
30:10
Stuff like that,
you would not learn at a boot camp,
30:14
because you don't have
the opportunity to do that.
30:17
Or having to navigate a really
big production code base.
30:20
I would say that was sort of my
biggest challenge in my first week.
30:24
I was just like, there's so
many more files than I'm used to, and
30:28
I don't know where anything is.
30:31
I know there's a bug, but I could
not tell you which file this but is,
30:33
cuz I just don't know-
>> I don't know where it is.
30:37
>> I don't know where it is, and so
30:40
those things felt like things that a boot
camp couldn't have prepared me for.
30:42
Because, just, you had to be in a big
production code for this to happen, and
30:47
working with designers, and
working with product managers.
30:51
>> Got it.
>> So, yeah,
30:55
I felt very technically not prepared for
that stuff.
30:56
And I was lucky enough that I
was at a company that was like,
30:59
we understand that you're gonna
take some time to get used to that.
31:02
Even at Etsy, when I started,
wasn't my first engineering job.
31:06
But they were sort of like,
here's a ramp-up guide that's five months.
31:10
We don't expect you to be able
to fully ramp up for a while.
31:14
>> So they didn't sit you down, say April,
31:18
we're gonna fire you cuz you've never-
>> [LAUGH]
31:20
>> You've never navigated a large
31:23
production environment?
31:25
>> [LAUGH] Thank goodness, no.
31:26
>> Right, but
that's because they don't expect that,
31:28
right, so-
>> Right.
31:30
>> So everybody listening, yeah,
you're not gonna know those things, and
31:31
they're not expecting you to, so.
31:36
>> Yeah, exactly,
I think what they were expecting,
31:38
they're expecting you to admit that you
don't know stuff, and ask questions,
31:40
and ask for help when you need it.
31:45
So that's the thing that
I tried to be like, okay,
31:47
I don't know where this file is.
31:50
And if I've spent an hour trying to find
it, and I haven't found it at that point,
31:52
that's the point where
it's time to ask for help.
31:57
>> Got it, so really, what you need to do
is learn to ask questions and get help?
32:00
>> Yes.
>> Got it.
32:04
>> Yeah, I think that's a bit
skill as a new engineer.
32:05
>> Got it, cool, okay, just wanna say hey
to everybody that's writing questions in
32:08
the comments, thank you so
much for doing that.
32:13
The team is collecting those comments and
we're gonna, or
32:15
questions, and we're gonna ask
those to April in a minute.
32:19
And just really great to be here, we have
over 100 people on here, which is awesome,
32:22
so-
>> That's really exciting.
32:27
>> Okay, so a couple more quick questions,
and then we'll get to the Q&A.
32:29
[SOUND] What do you look for
in a company as an employee?
32:33
How do you find yourself
expanding your network, and
32:36
can you speak to how important
networking is in the job search?
32:40
We talked about networking a little bit,
but why don't we focus on that,
32:43
how do you find a good company for
you, what are you looking for?
32:48
>> Yeah, yeah, I think, so
there are a few things.
32:51
I mean, values-wise, right,
I don't wanna work for
32:54
a company whose products I don't trust,
or I don't believe in, or wouldn't use.
32:57
And so I always phrase it as,
I need to work for a company that's,
33:02
they don't necessarily need to be doing
good, but they can't be doing bad,
33:06
is the way that I like thinking about it.
33:10
And so that's something, that's initial
screening phase of what is your product,
33:13
and how does it work?
33:17
That's one, I think the next thing I was
looking for is that, I wanted a place that
33:19
could support me as a junior engineer,
as someone who was laboratory-level.
33:23
And so whether that's like, they have a
really robust training program when you go
33:28
in, or there's a mentor program.
33:33
Or just, they have had other junior
engineers before who are still there, and
33:35
who still like it.
33:39
>> Got it.
>> Yeah, I didn't wanna go somewhere that
33:40
was gonna throw me to the wolves and
be like, all right, figure it out.
33:43
Because it's like, I mean,
I can figure it out to some extent.
33:47
But I'm still new, and I need a company
to acknowledge that I'm still new and
33:51
learning.
33:55
>> Yes, got it, is there anything,
how do you identify if it's a company that
33:56
actually cares about equity,
diversity, and inclusion?
34:00
>> Yeah, that's such a toss-up.
34:04
I mean, I'm gonna be honest, I stopped
asking questions about diversity and
34:05
inclusion.
34:10
Because I felt like the answers that
I got was a lot of company jargon and
34:10
company-speak, and it was always
the same answer from everybody company.
34:15
And so I was like, this is not a useful
question for me to ask anymore.
34:19
The way that I sort of suss
it out was just, if I could,
34:23
finding a person of color or
a woman who works at a company.
34:27
If I get to the final stages, and
I'm really considering them at that point,
34:30
I try to find other people and just be
like, tell me about your experiences.
34:35
>> Interesting,
find them on LinkedIn or something?
34:39
>> Eventually, yeah, exactly,
find them on LinkedIn, or
34:42
ask someone if they know someone who
knows someone, that kind of thing.
34:45
Because, yeah, just, in an interview
process, you're never gonna say, no, we
34:49
don't care about diversity and inclusion-
>> Right, [LAUGH]
34:54
>> People don't say that, [LAUGH], so-
34:57
>> [INAUDIBLE]
34:59
>> Yeah, so
35:00
you've got a lot of sort of company stuff.
35:00
It's always like, it could be better,
but we're doing these things, so-
35:03
>> Yeah, exactly, okay,
35:07
got it, cool, okay?
35:08
We got a ton of great
questions already coming in.
35:09
So I'm actually gonna go to Q&A five
minutes early, if that sounds good.
35:12
>> Let's do it, yeah.
35:17
>> Okay, let's do this, and
again, thanks everybody for
35:18
hanging out with us today on
this bonkers stressful day.
35:21
Where we're trying to figure out
who our president's gonna be, so
35:24
thanks for hanging out with us.
35:28
>> Yeah, [LAUGH]
>> Okay, so great questions, from DeShaun,
35:30
how useful do you you think
the boot camp was for you?
35:33
Do you think you could have taught
yourself just as efficiently, if not, why?
35:36
>> I think, well, first of all,
I tried to teach myself.
35:41
In between when I took that front end
class and signed up for the boot camp,
35:44
there was a year where I was like,
you know what, I have a foundation,
35:48
I'll just teach myself.
35:52
And I quickly realized that
it was very hard to look
35:54
at a screen all day while working,
and then come home and
35:57
motivate myself to continue to
look at a screen and teach myself.
36:00
So I think it is possible,
there's so much stuff out there.
36:04
All the information that my boot
camp taught me was out there for
36:08
free in the world.
36:12
But I just knew that I was the kind
of person who, I need the structure.
36:13
I need someone being like,
here's homework, here's the test.
36:17
You have deadlines,
you have to do the thing.
36:21
Cuz I was just, I was all over the place
when I was trying to teach myself.
36:23
>> Got it, so
the structure was super helpful.
36:28
I actually think,
on the bell curve of learners,
36:30
you're actually right in the middle.
36:33
I believe, actually, everybody,
most people need that, so,
36:35
okay-
>> Yeah.
36:39
>> Great question, thanks,
DeShaun, for asking that.
36:39
From Phillip, from the part-time
front end of your first job,
36:42
how long was the journey?
36:46
So essentially from that TA-
>> Boy, from TA'ing?
36:47
>> Well, I think so,
from the part-time front end-
36:50
>> From the part-time class that I took?
36:53
>> From the part-time front
end of your first job.
36:55
Probably they're asking, how long was this
journey to get that first job, right?
36:58
So why don't you go back,
when you started the boot camp,
37:03
to when you started at Quartz?
37:06
>> So I started the boot
camp in January of 2019, and
37:08
I finished my student part
of it in early April.
37:11
And then I stayed on as a TA until,
I think, end of July, and
37:14
I started Quartz the week after.
37:17
And honestly, I fully acknowledge,
I got lucky in a way.
37:20
And again, I was applying to
a bajillion jobs a day for
37:23
that-
>> [LAUGH]
37:26
>> That was my goal, I was like,
37:27
I don't wanna gap at all, in between when
I'm doing TA'ing, and also starting a job.
37:29
>> Cool, okay, great, thank you.
37:34
From Michelle,
what was your selection process for
37:35
choosing companies that you liked,
what did you look for?
37:38
>> Yeah, so I mean, I think,
we're talking about the same,
37:42
before I talked to people, right, where
I'm just thinking about where to apply.
37:45
And, yeah, it was a process
of going to their website.
37:50
If I wasn't familiar with the product,
looking at the product, what is it?
37:53
Is it a product I'll feel good about, one?
37:57
Then I was sorta looking
at the job description.
38:00
So Full Stack Academy,
Grace Hopper Program,
38:02
teaches you job descript on
the front end and the back end.
38:05
So I tried to apply for
38:09
jobs where at least I knew one of
the languages that they were looking for.
38:10
So oftentimes, it ended up being React,
so at least one.
38:14
You don't have to know everything
in the job description,
38:18
cuz I think you can learn
languages if you know one.
38:21
But I wanted at least one of
the languages there, cuz I was like,
38:24
they're gonna filter out otherwise.
38:28
So I did look for that,
I tried to get a sense of,
38:30
do they have people of
color who work here.
38:33
But it's really hard to do, honestly,
if it's not on their website or
38:36
LinkedIn, so
that wasn't a determining factor.
38:40
But other than that, honestly, I wasn't
super, super choosy on the ten jobs a day.
38:43
>> Got it.
>> Cuz it was really like,
38:47
I'm just doing a numbers game.
38:49
I got more choosy if they
actually reached out to me, and
38:51
then it became a real possibility.
38:54
>> Smart, got it, okay?
38:56
>> And if I just vaguely was interested,
I applied.
38:58
>> Yep, makes sense, awesome, okay?
39:00
From George, what are some good
websites to enhance your coding skills?
39:02
Can you recommend a good
boot camp to join?
39:06
Do you think HTML/CSS is a good
place to start learning coding?
39:09
>> Yeah, I mean, I think if you had never
coded anything, let's say you've never
39:13
built anything, I think HTML and
CSS is definitely a good place to start.
39:17
Just be like, do I like this?
39:22
I think it's pretty hard to get
a job now with just knowing those.
39:23
But I think it's a good place to start,
just as a testing ground.
39:27
When I was trying things out,
39:31
I did do some stuff on Treehouse-
>> Hey!
39:33
>> [LAUGH] Which,
I'm not here to plug, it's the truth-
39:35
>> We're not paying her to say that.
39:38
>> It's the truth.
39:40
>> She didn't get paid to say that.
39:41
>> [LAUGH] I did do a lot of Code Academy.
39:43
>> Cool.
>> Cuz that was a good way of,
39:45
they had the sandbox free,
39:47
you don't have to do any coding setup,
you just have to practice the stuff.
39:48
I think those were sort of my big ones
that, when I was just first starting out,
39:53
just an easy way to intro in.
39:58
Cool, okay, great.
40:00
All right, from Rhonda,
change careers at 55,
40:02
went to Boot Camp,
now working at my first job 3 years in.
40:05
Good job, Rhonda.
40:10
It's awesome.
40:10
I want to work in a more front
end developer folks environment.
40:12
How do I sell myself as
an older person in the field?
40:15
>> Man, I don't even know if I have
if I'm qualified to answer that one.
40:20
>> Okay.
>> Just because I haven't I haven't
40:26
had sort of like first hand
experience of how to do that.
40:28
>> Fair enough.
40:31
>> But I will say that my experience has
been though and it's much easier, sorry,
40:32
much easier to get your second engineering
job than it is to get your first one.
40:38
Like once you have some of that
experience under your belt,
40:43
I think people are more likely
to at least interview you.
40:46
So I'm hoping that that's
your experience as well.
40:49
>> Awesome.
I'm 43, so I'm Probably closer to your age
40:52
Rhonda, and I would say sell your life
experience as very, very valuable.
40:56
Sell the fact that you have
the perspective of a 55 year
41:02
old to bring to the team.
41:07
That's very important.
41:10
And so I would actually
focus on those as strengths.
41:12
So from Kyle,
best places to network during COVID times.
41:16
>> Boy, I will admit that I have
not been doing tons of networking
41:22
during COVID times.
41:25
Since I was lucky enough to get my Etsy
one because again I had another Boot Camp
41:26
grad who was friends with, I had told her,
hey, I think layoffs might be coming.
41:31
And she was like cool, I think we
could be hiring, I'll keep a lookout.
41:36
And then he was able to refer me to Etsy.
41:39
Yeah, so that that worked out.
41:41
But I do know a lot of friends
who are still going to meet ups.
41:44
That is still a thing.
41:47
They're now virtual and digital and
on Zoom, but that's still a way to do it.
41:48
That was the way I was mostly networking
with people, I completely didn't know.
41:52
>> Awesome.
>> In the old pre-COVID world.
41:57
>> Yeah, got it.
41:59
I'll just say attending events
like this is a great way to do it.
42:01
I noticed a couple of y'all in
the in the chat are saying, hey,
42:04
check out my LinkedIn.
42:07
So I think those are some
good ways to do that as well.
42:10
Are you a member of, you said you're
on a slack group of Women In Tech.
42:15
There's a couple great things like that.
42:20
How do folks find stuff like that?
42:22
>> Boy, I think I found them all
probably through word of mouth.
42:26
The women In Tech one I found cuz
a coworker was just like, hey,
42:32
I heard about the Slack,
I'm in it, do you wanna join it?
42:36
I've never had to do any googling for
this, but I have a feeling if you did
42:39
sort of googling for like Tech Slacks or
Women in Tech Slacks, that there
42:44
is a listing out there somewhere
>> All right, finding them, got it.
42:49
>> Yeah.
>> Agreed.
42:54
I know there's actually a great
organization in New York called
42:55
Black Women Talk Tech.
42:59
There's a lot of really
great organizations I think,
43:01
just to encourage you all to start
googling in and connect in and
43:05
then ask for hey,
how are you all connecting and networking?
43:09
So okay, cool.
43:14
From Alexandra,
is it important to understand
43:15
back end to become a front ender?
43:20
>> So I do both.
43:24
So that's been my experience, but
I would guess that you don't need to know
43:26
the intricacies of what's happening on
the back end to become a front ender.
43:30
But I think you do need to understand
in a big picture idea, right?
43:34
Because generally your data flow
is coming from the back end.
43:38
And then in front end you deal with it,
and present it in a great way to the user.
43:41
So I think you need to at
least understand that process.
43:46
Like how is the data coming to me?
43:48
Like what is it gonna look like to
be able to use it on the front end?
43:51
But I don't know that you need
to be like deep in the back end.
43:53
>> Got it.
>> So yeah, the big picture,
43:56
it should work.
43:58
>> Okay, cool, thank you.
43:59
Let's see, from Mohammed,
most of the front end
44:02
entry level positions that companies need
at least two to three years experience.
44:05
How can we get entry level jobs when
we don't have any company experience?
44:10
Can Treehouse help their
students in this connection?
44:15
What would you say April?
44:17
>> So I can't speak for
the Treehouse part, but
44:20
I will say that someone once told me
that job descriptions are wish lists and
44:22
that's stuck with me for a long time.
44:27
So I applied for jobs that were
like three years of experience.
44:29
I tried to do more like
not more than three years.
44:33
And I got calls for some of those jobs.
44:36
I got phone screens and
people reached out.
44:38
The worst that happens is they're like,
all right,
44:42
you don't have enough experience.
44:43
But sometimes you'd be surprised that
they're willing to budge on that.
44:44
Like they want three, but they will
accept if someone's a good candidate and
44:48
has less than that.
44:51
Got it, awesome.
44:53
And, one thing we said in our last
interview, and I'll just reiterate here,
44:54
is that you all can essentially build,
some of your experience by starting
45:00
off by doing a free project for a local
nonprofit or an organization you trust.
45:05
They need a simple website or web app.
45:11
And then once you do that, then you
have a project and then you could then
45:13
charge another organization a small
amount of money to do another one.
45:18
But you can kinda boot up your paid
work experience by essentially
45:22
doing smaller projects for
nonprofits you care about, etc.
45:27
So it doesn't solve the problem but
it gives you a little more experience.
45:32
So what April is saying,
yeah, it's a wish list.
45:37
They're saying yeah in ideal world someone
with three plus years experience applies
45:42
that has everything we want.
45:46
But as a company that has a lot of job
offers, you want as many people to apply,
45:47
and you end up looking at folks that
don't have quite what you need and,
45:53
and it's fine.
45:57
So that's great advice, April.
45:59
Thank you.
46:00
From Kip, what types of
projects did you build, April?
46:02
Great question.
46:07
What did I build?
46:08
[LAUGH] So-
>> Remember?
46:09
[LAUGH] Honestly, I'm trying to remember.
46:10
Yeah, most of the projects that I listed
on my resume were stuff that we built in
46:12
Boot Camp.
46:16
So one of them was
a project everyone built.
46:17
We basically built an e-commerce site.
46:21
I can't remember what ours was selling-
>> [LAUGH]
46:23
>> You could pick whatever it was selling.
46:25
And so that was cool cuz it existed,
I could post the GitHub link so
46:28
they could see the code.
46:32
And I specifically in the bullet
points listed what I specifically did.
46:34
Not just what the project did.
46:38
That was one of them.
46:40
The other thing I built is I was
trying to build a better MTA app,
46:41
MTA is the the main public
transit in New York City.
46:46
And their actual app was like very flaky.
46:50
And so [LAUGH] I built an app that was
able to check based on the tweets that
46:53
they tweeted out, which I think
are more reliable than their thing.
46:57
I would like track,
47:01
use the tweets to tell you if there
was gonna be a delay on your train.
47:02
And it could also like send you a text,
wow.
47:07
>> Cool.
47:09
>> [INAUDIBLE] API to send the text part.
47:10
>> That's awful.
47:12
>> And
that was cool cuz I was a solo project.
47:13
We had like a hackathon weekend.
47:15
And that was the project
I built from that.
47:16
>> That's so cool.
47:19
These projects,
did you host them live on the web or
47:20
did you just have your GitHub Repos?
47:24
>> So our ecommerce site was hosted.
47:27
Actually, no, it wasn't, no,
our ecommerce site was not hosted.
47:32
So I just posted the GitHub link.
47:35
And then the app that I created
was an app and therefore there,
47:36
I couldn't sudden like deploy the app.
47:40
So there was no way unfortunately,
unless use Glitch which I
47:43
hear it's a way to like host your app so
people can see it [INAUDIBLE].
47:48
>> I think that, I just lost you out here.
47:52
You're back, I think.
47:55
Can you say, no, I think locked you.
47:56
>> Yeah.
47:59
>> No, you're back, okay.
47:59
Sorry [LAUGH].
48:00
>> Sorry, someone was calling me and
had to take off my headphones [LAUGH].
48:02
>> It's all good [LAUGH].
48:05
>> Anyway I was saying that the app was
hard to share with people cuz it wasn't
48:06
a like deployed app.
48:10
And so both times I shared the GitHub.
48:11
And that seemed to be fine for
most people in job interviews.
48:13
>> Awesome, okay, cool.
48:16
I got more questions, these are great.
48:18
From Sufian, hello April,
at what point did you realize that you had
48:21
enough knowledge in the field
to be a value to a company?
48:26
And also did you have any live projects in
your portfolio which talked about that?
48:30
What kind of projects companies see
as representative of one skill?
48:34
So all you.
48:38
>> So at what point did I feel
like I had enough, I don't know.
48:42
I mean I think after I
finished the Boot Camp,
48:47
are sort of like the career services
people, they're just sort of like,
48:49
you're never gonna feel ready to apply and
you need to just start applying.
48:53
And I think that that like was
the push I needed and it's very true.
48:57
Cuz like there's so
much you can learn in engineering, right?
49:01
Even if you're a senior engineer,
there's stuff you're still learning.
49:03
And so if you're waiting for
the point where it's like,
49:06
I've learned all the things.
49:08
>> [LAUGH]
>> That point is never gonna happen.
49:09
At a certain point after you've built
a few things, and you've gone through
49:11
a curriculum or a curriculum you made for
yourself, whatever it is.
49:15
I think the building things is like
really the thing that solidifies it.
49:19
If you built them,
you have some skills and you have enough.
49:22
And that should just be your
points to just try applying.
49:25
>> Awesome.
49:28
>> See what happens.
49:29
>> Got it, that's such good advice.
49:29
Yeah, you'll never, ever gonna feel ready.
49:31
I still don't feel ready for
my job [LAUGH].
49:35
>> [LAUGH]
>> So it's just never stops.
49:38
Okay, great.
49:41
More good questions, from Leanne.
49:41
April, what made you choose full stack as
opposed to only front end or back end?
49:44
And what made you do a Boot Camp
instead of doing self-taught?
49:50
Do you think you felt you
had a lot of confidence and
49:53
value because of the Boot Camp experience?
49:55
I know we've touched on
a couple of these things, but
49:57
we'd love to hear you speak them again.
49:59
Yeah in terms of full stack,
I felt like going in to learning and.
50:02
I just didn't know enough to be able
to make a choice between back end and
50:07
front end.
50:11
And honestly with I guess almost two years
in the game at this point, I still don't
50:12
feel like I know enough to be able to make
a choice between the back and front end.
50:16
I do know some classmates in boot camp who
felt after we learned both, they just felt
50:21
strongly drawn to front end and so after
we finish they look for front-end jobs.
50:25
>> Okay.
>> But I sort of liked them both and
50:29
didn't really feel a pull and so mostly I
picked it from indecision to be honest.
50:31
>> Got it, all right that's good.
50:36
That's just as good as the top a lot
of us make decisions, all right?
50:37
>> [LAUGH]
>> And then you I guess what's interesting
50:40
as well as you tend to learn
front end first anyway.
50:46
A little bit of CSS and
HTML, JavaScript, right?
50:50
And then you end up going back end.
50:53
So that should be the natural
journey anyway, okay?
50:54
We talked about why he chose
boot camp set of self-taught.
51:02
You wanted structure,
wanted the clarity of that.
51:04
So let's go to the next question from Tim.
51:08
With so many people out of work during
this post COVID world, the competition for
51:10
opportunity is higher than ever.
51:14
How do we make ourselves stand out
in this new career seeking world?
51:16
>> Yeah and I think that that definitely
is something that I've thought about as
51:21
someone who has had to do like
a big job search, I guess.
51:26
And I think honestly,
that's where networking comes in.
51:30
I keep saying, and I know I like
keep [LAUGH] bringing it back.
51:33
But truly,
51:36
if I'm able to refer someone because I
know them that person's application is
51:36
gonna be moved on top of the pile versus
all the people who just cold applied.
51:41
>> Yeah.
51:46
>> And so if you can talk to people,
if you can get a referral like that,
51:47
I think that's really the trick to
getting your resume at least read.
51:51
Your application at least read.
51:55
>> Amen.
51:57
That's great advice.
51:57
From Esther, Hello April, have you
attended any specific university or
51:59
courses or was it just boot camp and
self learning manifests?
52:03
>> Just boot camp and self learning.
52:07
I have thought about whether I wanna go
back and eventually take some computer
52:09
science courses and I might, but
so far it's just been boot camp.
52:13
>> Got it.
52:16
Do you have a college degree?
52:17
>> I do, yeah.
52:19
I have a bachelor's in journalism.
52:20
>> Got it, okay.
52:22
But pop up from Shuman, hi April,
52:24
does tech industry really
need a college degree?
52:27
What is the difference between
people with college degrees and
52:32
the people that don't have them?
52:34
>> Yeah, I mean, I have thought some about
this I definitely think I hustled and
52:37
I like did my ten jobs a day and
I talked to everyone who would talk to me,
52:42
but I do acknowledge that I think there is
a certain level of privilege with the fact
52:46
that I had a network.
52:51
It wasn't tech network, but
I had a network of journalism people.
52:52
I had a college degree.
52:55
And I do think that helped people take
me seriously and look at my resume.
52:57
So I can't speak exactly for what the
experience is like had I not had a college
53:03
degree cuz I only had this experience,
but I do think it is a factor and
53:07
it's something to think about.
53:11
>> Okay, thank you.
53:14
From Benjamin, how do you explain to an
employer your decision to switch careers?
53:15
>> I think my employer was actually
pretty understanding of it.
53:22
The fact that I was like,
53:26
hey, I'm basically I'm going
to school is what I said.
53:27
I'm going to school to switch careers and
they thought it was awesome.
53:29
They're like, I think it's really brave
and really cool that you're doing it.
53:31
I honestly think that was a better
conversation than had I been like, hey,
53:34
I'm going to a competitor.
53:37
They were much more encouraging and
53:38
supportive of the fact that
I was going to school.
53:41
>> Awesome, okay.
53:44
From Michelle,
how do you define your dream job?
53:48
How has it changed over time?
53:51
>> So this is a question I was talking to
Ryan about this before we got on chat that
53:53
I'm still figuring out.
53:58
I had an idea of what my journalism
dream job was when that was my industry.
54:00
And I still feel like I'm so
54:05
new to tech that I'm still trying
to figure out what my dream job is.
54:06
Whether it's back in or
whether it's front end.
54:10
I think the only thing I know
is that I really wanna work,
54:14
like I said on a product
that I feel good about.
54:17
A product that I feel impacts
people's lives in a positive way.
54:18
Yeah, I've been thinking
lately about how there's so
54:24
many government sites that I wish
were better and had better tech.
54:26
I don't know if that's the path my career
will go eventually yet, but I think
54:29
that's definitely something maybe on the
side that I wanna really get involved in.
54:33
Cuz people use the IRS website,
it's a completely trash website and so
54:37
many people need it.
54:42
And me to use it, it should be better.
54:43
>> I love that.
54:45
I was just looking,
I remember hearing about code for America.
54:46
And, I know that they specifically do
that where you can say, all right,
54:51
I wanna donate some time to
make these things better.
54:56
That's a cool, it's a cool idea, okay?
54:59
From Sohart, we all know that the best way
to become programmer is by practicing.
55:02
What kind of projects would
you recommend to build and
55:08
how should we get help when we're stuck?
55:11
Any resources that we can get help,
thank you.
55:14
>> It's great question.
55:18
I think Twitter is actually
surprisingly good for this.
55:19
If you're using the code newbie hashtag,
if you're stuck on something, and
55:22
people are pretty good about responding.
55:26
I've never done it myself, but
I've seen tweets like that and
55:29
seeing people respond.
55:33
I know specifically when I was working
on my, that like Twitter app for
55:34
the MTA that I hacked together.
55:38
And the API that I was using to do
it was giving me so much trouble and
55:41
I tweeted at the people.
55:45
It was like open source.
55:46
I tweeted at the people and
they responded.
55:47
They were like, hey here's some
resources to help solve the thing.
55:48
So Twitter, actually, surprisingly.
55:51
[LAUGH] I think those slacks.
55:53
I've seen a lot of people and women in
tech slack that I'm in be like, hey,
55:57
I'm stuck on this problem and
I when people chime in.
56:00
So I think those communities for
getting help.
56:03
In terms of what to build, this is
something I struggled with before boot
56:08
camp when I was trying to teach myself.
56:10
And I was like, I know that it's most
helpful to learn through building, but
56:12
I have no idea.
56:15
It's like a writer with writer's block.
56:16
I don't know what,
you could build anything.
56:17
>> Right?
56:20
>> And I remember googling I
wish I had the link on hand but
56:20
there was like a list of things
to build and I just exam.
56:24
It was like build a calculator,
build a to-do list app.
56:27
It doesn't need to be anything complicated
actually the simpler the better
56:31
>> Yeah.
56:35
>> Yeah, I think I just googled like
list of coding projects and it was,
56:37
I can't remember where it was,
and just pick something.
56:41
>> That's great advice.
56:44
You could take that list and then also
layer on something that you're passionate
56:45
about, like I'm learning
how to sail right now.
56:50
So it's maybe I would make a to do
list for prepping the sailboat, right?
56:52
So I think anything you're passionate
about is just easier, right?
56:58
>> Yeah.
57:02
>> If you're frustrated
with MTA's terrible app.
57:03
You're like,
I wanna build something better.
57:07
>> Yeah.
57:09
I hope no one from the MTA is here.
57:10
Sorry.
[LAUGH] Gosh we are about to run out of
57:11
time.
57:15
This has been fun, okay?
57:16
Couple more questions from Alexandra,
57:18
how to brainstorm ideas for
the first GitHub projects?.
57:21
We talked about that.
57:26
All right, so we already
answered your question Alexandra.
57:30
Google a list of projects to choose from,
pick something you're passionate about.
57:33
The easier the better,
the simpler the better at first.
57:37
From Kip, how many projects
did you have in your resume?
57:40
>> I only had, for
my first job I only had three.
57:43
Yeah, I think I had three in my
second one too, I got rid of one.
57:48
Yeah, so only three.
57:51
>> Okay, cool.
57:52
Nice, short and sweet.
57:53
Okay, so this is a good one from Soufiane,
57:56
is freelancing the same value as working
for a company in terms of experience?
57:59
>> I didn't do any freelancing,
I actually still haven't.
58:04
So I can't speak to that.
58:08
But I know other classmates who did
it would include that in their work
58:09
experience.
58:12
So that was super helpful because now you
have more tech related work experience, so
58:13
I would assume so.
58:17
>> Awesome.
58:18
Okay, well, we're almost out of time.
58:19
So I'm just looking at
my show run real quick.
58:24
>> [LAUGH]
>> I just wanna let everybody know, April
58:27
and I are gonna say goodbye to you all in
a second, but we're gonna transition to
58:31
our networking part of this event, which
April has been talking about nonstop.
58:36
Networking is so, so important.
58:41
>> It really is.
58:43
>> So please take advantage of this.
58:44
This kind of just an easy to do thing.
58:46
Here's how it works.
58:49
So you click on the networking button.
58:51
It should be on the left of your,
no, where is it?
58:54
Yeah, it's on the left of the screen.
58:59
Turn on your camera and microphone.
59:00
That may seem a little scary, but
59:02
it's just a good way to build
kind of a natural relationship.
59:04
You'll be randomly paired
with another person and
59:08
you'll have three minutes to chat.
59:10
If you decide that you'd like to stay in
touch, you just click the connect button.
59:12
If they also decide to share their
information and they click connect,
59:17
then afterwards you're connected.
59:20
But don't worry if you
don't wanna connect.
59:23
They're not gonna know that during
the call, so it won't be weird.
59:24
And you can leave the video
call at any time, don't worry.
59:28
This shouldn't happen, but if someone acts
inappropriately you can flag them and
59:31
will take action.
59:34
That has not happened thankfully
in any of our events ever, so
59:35
don't be too scared of that.
59:38
So, please take that
the opportunity to do this.
59:40
And again, if you don't know how to talk
about just ask them the question I thought
59:43
up which is what are you
passionate about right now?
59:46
What do you care about?
59:49
So, please you all do that.
59:50
April, thank you so much for
taking time to spend with us.
59:52
Your time is valuable.
59:57
Your journey is impressive and inspiring.
59:59
And I just wanna thank you for
sharing it with us.
1:00:05
So any last message to
the audience of where to go?
1:00:07
>> Thank you Ryan.
1:00:09
I did just wanna say one more
thing about networking actually,
1:00:10
as you guys go into the networking hour.
1:00:13
You might be thinking,
1:00:15
do I really wanna network with someone
who's in the same position that I'm in?
1:00:16
How helpful that can that really be?
1:00:19
And I will say that they always
us in boot camp that the person
1:00:21
sitting next to you may not
get your first job, but
1:00:24
they may get your second and
that's definitely what happened to me.
1:00:27
A classmate referred me, right?
1:00:30
So these connections maybe
they can't help you now, but
1:00:32
you can help each other down the line.
1:00:35
>> That was an amazing
piece of advice to you all.
1:00:37
And if you just listen to that,
then this whole session was worth it.
1:00:41
So thanks again, April.
1:00:46
You're very inspiring.
1:00:47
Appreciate your time.
1:00:48
Everybody thanks for joining us.
1:00:49
We're so honored to have you here.
1:00:51
Have a great day and and
we'll talk to you all soon.
1:00:54
Take care.
1:00:57
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