[MUSIC]

CSS Dev Con 2014, thanks for being here.

Does anybody have any questions right away.

>> Is this what we're going to do?

I feel like you guys maybe Q and A'd out.

So but just dig deep.

And let's just get nerdy about CSS.

This is CSS Dev Con.

I know somebody's got some stuff.

I primed some of you.

[LAUGH] >> Okay, I have a question.

>> Yeah.

>> All right.

How did you get into CSS, how did you get into web design?

>> Oh, we're gonna go old school.

Back, back in the day.

>> Yeah.

College was boring.

>> Yeah? >> I don't know.

I did a graphic design degree.

>> Mm-hm.

>> And it was okay.

>> Yeah.

>> But then I left, and I was in print design.

I was working in Prepress.

Has anybody ever work in Prepress?

>> Woo! >> [APPLAUSE].

>> It's super nerdy, right?

It's nerdy in like all the right ways.

It's like you get to use no creativity.

[LAUGH].

>> [LAUGH]. >> But you, but you, but.

Well I shouldn't say that.

You're creativity is funneled into like figuring out how things are gonna fit

onto a press sheet.

And what backs up to what.

>> Mm-hm.

Right.

>> And where there's gonna be creep.

And do you need to account for that?

And you use like, esoterical tools and software and

stuff to do all that kinda thing.

You have to be really detail oriented.

And it's kinda like analog CSS.

In a way.

I just made that up, I won't lie [LAUGH] That was really good.

>> Yeah yeah, I was there, I was there.

I bought it.

>> Yeah and then I just was on the side,

I was like doing websites because it's just clearly more fun.

>> Yeah. >> And

then, took any opportunity to take a web job and

when came along I was like okay I'll take it.

>> Yeah.

Go, so how did sis, CSS Tricks get started?

>> Oh, it was like a ploy for money.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah, it was like a, I'm gonna get wicked rich doing this, so

[LAUGH] writing about floats, it's gonna be great.

>> Yeah. >> It kinda was though,

that's the that was the kinda the old.

>> I mean, this is like a literally, a true story.

>> Yeah. >> I had like a,

you know, a buddy and we're like,

we're like looking at people who really are like not getting rich obviously.

But get, but making like some money with Google AdSense and garbage.

You know, we were like, that'd be cool if we could just.

Get, buy some domain names.

Fill 'em up with content.

>> Right. >> Throw Google AdSense all over it.

We'll make, like, 300 bucks a month.

>> Right. >> Beer money forever.

>> Yeah. [LAUGH] >> You don't have to.

>> [LAUGH] >> Yeah, and it's gonna be awesome.

And he, at the time, was working for, like, Adobe call support.

>> Yeah.

>> Which was, like, pretty soulless.

But he knew what, not that job, but

just like can you imagine answering the phone for that and be like ooh.

>> Yeah.

>> He knew what people asked.

He knew what phone calls came over and

over so that, that would translate into a pretty good headline probably.

>> Yeah. >> Like at least a CO friendly one.

>> Yeah.

>> And we would fill it up with stuff.

It'll be like Photoshop help and design help.

All these ones that were just like perfect domain names to

fill with garbage content and throw Ad Sense on.

>> Yeah. >> And then Adobe's like that's not

a great idea.

>> You got a like a little.

>> Little cease and desist action.

>> Did you write them back.

Maybe you should, write better [CROSSTALK] products.

>> They paid.

They had to buy out.

>> [LAUGH].

>> We, we got a good lawyer.

>> Oh yeah.

Well there you go.

Beer money right there.

>> It was like a $100.

>> sweet. >> [LAUGH].

>> [COUGH] [LAUGH] Sauce.

[LAUGH] You're like, I'll take it.

>> Okay.

>> And then but, but so

it was a network of blogs, you know, and she thought that would be cool too,.

>> Yeah. >> You know, kinda prestigious.

>> That might work out pretty good.

>> Yeah.

And CSS trace is one of them.

Which is just garbage.

It was amazing. It was a bleak time in CSS.

Nobody's writing about it.

In fact the vibe in CSS was kinda like eh, can we stop talking about this?

>> Right. >> What, what's, it's, what has,

what can be said about CSS has been said.

>> Was that? What that during the Dot Com Crash?

Well that was, it was 2007-ish.

>> Yeah. >> And that was in the vibe.

The browser scene wasn't good.

>> Yeah. >> You know it was pretty stale.

>> Mm-hm. >> And

I was like three styles to make cool headers for you websites.

[LAUGH] And so, have you tried letter spacing negative one pixels.

It's so cool, you know?

[LAUGH] I was just oblivious idiot.

That article is still up.

[LAUGH] You can find it.

[LAUGH] The worst.

>> Yeah. [COUGH]

>> But I liked it.

>> Yeah. >> Cuz I was, you know,

I was like, screwing around with WordPress.

>> Yeah. >> And figuring stuff out and,

and, and blogging about it.

And then I had this super-bad technique that I published that was, like,

it was like a bunch of paragraphs on top of each other.

Right? So the page had to scroll.

>> Yeah. >> And then I

made a ping in Photoshop that was, like, white to-

>> Transparent?

>> Transparent, yeah. >> Yep.

>> And then I fixed positioned it on the bottom.

>> Of course. >> So

as you scroll it looks super cool like the words are just coming out of the ether.

>> Yeah. [LAUGH].

>> But it was the worst it was just over the content so

you couldn't select over it.

>> Okay. >> And

you know it was like totally not good advice to give anybody really.

But it made it into one of those like Smashing magazines,

100 coolest tips ever post, like they did back then.

[LAUGH] I was like, yes.

>> [LAUGH].

>> Then I like, redesigned the blogs, I am like,

I am getting, I am losing subscribers.

[LAUGH] Because there is no cool caller actions.

>> [LAUGH].

>> And then it was all uphill.

>> Okay.

>> No, just a, you should see my analytic growth for that site.

It's just, there's like no cool spike.

There was that one spike, back in 2007 and then it's just been.

>> Well, that, that's what cool, I'm a big fan, of course,

but, one of the things that, that you say is that.

I read somewhere your, you had an article was like your super power is

that you're able to work on something over like a lunch.

For a long-term growth.

And just keep on working on it.

Make it better and better over time.

>> Yeah. >> [COUGH] But, just basically in a.

>> [CROSSTALK] Home shirt yesterday?

It was like, slow and steady wins.

>> Yeah.

>> [UNKNOWN] It was badass shirt.

I was like, oh yes.

It totally does.

>> Yeah. >> If you just stick with it and

don't give up ever.

>> Yeah.

>> You'll either win or die.

>> [LAUGH] [LAUGH] Oh, man.

Well if any one has any questions we have a few books of

a response to typography to give out.

And also Cool Shades.

Also it might get answered by Chris Coyier.

So there you go.

So just come up to the mic and and, and there you go.

Have a call to action.

Cut the mic.

>> Here we go.

Just then.

[LAUGH] >> Good afternoon.

And I wanted to, you know I, you spoke of this very briefly, but

I had a bigger question.

By the way, my name Aleed and.

>> Where you from?

>> I'm from Toronto, and I'm a volunteer.

>> we, we're all here certainly because I'm sure we

all love development and we all love the web.

And you know, we realize the web pretty much going to be everything that we do.

Now, in reference to your personal experience with the hacker.

[BLANK_AUDIO]

And with what's been going on, you know, with the iCloud leak and, and

all these cards that are now floating around the net.

Do you think that right now, we are in a situation where, I mean, we love the Web.

And we're investing so much into the Web.

But now the Web is going to potentially have a security issue.

[INAUDIBLE] >> Sorry about that.

>> Yep.

>> [LAUGH] Probably.

Like you have to do a good job.

I mean certainly you would think that the Dropbox security team is

a little smarter than the average bear at security.

And they somehow screwed the pooch on that one, right?

There's like a, there's like, a paste bin somewhere with my password on it.

That sucks.

>> [LAUGH].

>> So, I don't know how to fix that you know.

I'm just like, I hope some smart people do, do a good job.

>> [LAUGH]. >> But yeah [LAUGH] we need to be like,

maybe more mad about it or.

They're more serious about it or more, more, more something.

It would be a shame if we just let these things happen,

be like, oh I'm so mad, I'm gonna change password and forget about it, you know?

[LAUGH] Like maybe we should like, mm, take to the streets.

[LAUGH] Do they do that?

Can you protest on the web?

Maybe we should.

Cuz we should gi, this, this is kind of a big deal.

It's funny to, to laugh about, but you're right.

It sucks when security things happen and, and, and.

Right. >> And, and you know?

I just it's, it's more also about like and again I,

I go back to your show where that, that package is kinda.

>> Yeah. >> He said he found a scan a PSD of

a passport and then he threw in a photo.

Then he found a PSD of a, of a signature.

Then used like, he knew he'd be all sorta like all good.

>> Yeah, that was a weird situation.

I don't know if anybody doesn't always talk about it.

Somebody just did that to me.

They just made a fake driver's license like poorly Photoshop and

they send it to my hosting company.

And they're like, look it's me.

Don't worry about it.

Give me access to all this stuff.

>> Yeah. Like awesome.

And then it you know, it kinda like got worse from there.

But it's just the moral of that story is that, that sucked and.

[LAUGH] You know, [LAUGH].

[COUGH] And I lucked out because I was able to, if you haven't heard the show.

I invited the dude on the podcast to talk to me personally.

And he like used some fancy router technology to stay anonymous or whatever.

And I talked to him.

And you know, it's not like he was cool.

I mean it was an interesting show, but I'm still like fuck that guy you know.

[LAUGH].

>> It's not like we're buddies now.

[LAUGH]. >> So, so you're definitely not gonna,

you're definitely gon, not gonna have like a beergate.

>> [LAUGH] I hope not.

Yeah, yeah.

Cool.

Cheers man.

>> Yeah. >> So I worked for

someone who as a producer for a site back in the day.

He actually did autographs, like he actually had gif,

like a two bit gif of his signature.

And then later on someone cashed a check with that two bit signature that they put

on the check.

>> Two bit? >> Yeah.

>> Like it was pixel disaster?

>> Yeah, it was, it was act, it was back in the day, like 90s.

>> [LAUGH].

>> It's like he had this ugly, like, you know, no it was not ping 24,

it was just crazy.

So my moral of the story is like, security is gonna be a big issue going forward.

Definitely do not invite people by putting your signature in a gif on the web.

>> Yeah, true.

You know what?

Crap!

I should think about that.

Cuz I have, I have a signature.psd in my Dropbox that I

like to have around in case I need to paste it onto a document.

I should probably get that out of there.

>> [LAUGH].

We're all learning today.

You know? Next person.

>> hey, I'm Wes also from Toronto.

So when I got first got started with HTML CSS it was just that, HTML CSS.

Little bit of JavaScript, maybe jQuery.

Now I'm a teacher and I'm teaching people HTML, CSS, and JavaScript but.

What comes along, is there like, well what about all these frameworks in Sass and

Less and JavaScript and Angular, and Backbone.

And they, they just wanna start at the top.

So we all know you can't start just with Angular or Backbone.

You have to learn JavaScript first.

So what do you say to people.

That want to get in there.

>> Yeah, that's tough, they, that's what your vibe is?

That's the vibe from the students?

>> Yeah, exactly, they're like, I wanna learn, like the coolest stuff first,

before I know like the fundamentals.

You gotta like, crawl before you walk, right?

>> Yeah, Yeah.

You have a, you have a hard situation is that what you have to be like?

>> Well, so [INAUDIBLE].

>> Settle down kids, you have to crawl before you can walk.

>> [LAUGH].

>> That's not gonna go well, right?

>> No, that's the thing you, you always have to be like the,

the like Debbie Downer.

Being like, well unfortunately you have to learn regular CSS and JavaScript first.

>> I bet there's like.

I didn't though. Like you know I learned zip-

>> Yeah. >> Query first right?

So maybe you can maybe you can, you can play around with jQuery because I

think maybe that will like satisfy them early on.

>> Yeah. >> Because you can totally be

like dollar sign a dot on click and alert high you know.

And you and that's like feels pretty powerful and

it's like three lines of jQuery can be like.

Yeah. >> Okay, now you have a little taste and

now use the powers responsibly.

Or maybe you can select placate some of it early on, you know?

>> Yeah we tried to like dangle it in front of them and say all right.

>> Yeah. >> Now we gotta

>> I think angular

is a rough place to start.

[LAUGH].

>> So, cool.

Thanks.

>> Well thank you.

>> Good luck man, you're, you're a hero.

>> Good luck with your life.

>> Teaching the hardest things there is to teach probably.

>> Oh, wait.

Would you like a copy of the book?

>> Yes.

>> Okay, cool.

[LAUGH].

>> Why else would he come up.

>> Thank you.

>> All right, Chris.

>> Yay. >> Great to see you again.

I wanna talk about your podcast which we've,

besides the hacker thing you've kinda skipped over.

And come on Shop Talk Show.

>> Shop Talk Show.

[APPLAUSE].

>> I was expecting that to come next.

So you should listen to the one that we just published yesterday.

It's, it's kinda funny.

Me and Dave do web standards southern gentlemen in it.

>> [LAUGH]

>> Are you drinking like, mint juleps [INAUDIBLE]?

>> [LAUGH] Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> I believe in web standards.

>> [LAUGH]. >> So, so, I've, I've, listened to,

yours is probably one of the first podcasts I got a chance to listen to.

And it inspired me to start a podcast as well.

I'm kinda curious where did that desire come from?

And like, what's happened with it?

I mean, it's such a great way to contribute to the community.

So many people have learned so much from it.

So, what, what's your story coming to that and bringing Dave on and like?

>> Yeah, you know I got invited to a couple before I had it.

And it was so fun.

And now I've seen this a bunch of times.

Now when we invite people onto Shop Talk.

I kinda, I see tweets from them in the future that are like, I have so

much fun being a guest, that I wanna either A, be a guest on more of them.

>> Mm-hm. >> Or maybe even start my own.

Not that I don't think we're particularly better than the actual like,

offshoot Podcasts or anything.

But at least the desire to and that's totally where my desire came from.

And then I was like, I want to do that, that sounds fun.

But I don't want to do any work.

[LAUGH] You know, so I was like.

So I was secretly like waiting for

somebody to ask me to start one so that we could share the load.

I know you are mostly doing SassBytes alone, right?

>> Yeah, it's just YouTube, so YouTube. >> Yeah.

>> Shares the heavy load.

>> Yeah, it's nice doing it with Dave because we can split.

Who does the scheduling, and who preps the notes, and

who does tax stuff and whatever?

And a 50% load feels good to me, and

then we even outsource some other stuff like the audio editing and stuff.

And now that it's at the point, where we don't,

we just, it's not a tremendous workload, so we can just do it forever.

I know that's not quite what you're asking, but it's kinda.

>> Oh, no, that's.

>> Kid, that was the thought even in the early days, it's like,

how can we do this fairly easily.

And the tools get even easier, or even easier still these days cuz all you

gotta do is find somewhere to host that media file.

And there's tons of start-ups that do that,

I think we use like, Buzzsprout or something.

You just need somewhere to put that MP3, and

then you use an RSS feed that is like, iTunes compatible.

Which there's tons of WordPress plugins that will just totally help you with that.

So if you just want an audio podcast, you're like, ten clicks away these days.

Like, it's easy to start. So I would encourage anybody to do

it cuz it's a cool medium.

>> Awesome.

>> It's like, it's like the future and stuff.

[LAUGH].

>> With lasers. >> Thanks.

>> Thanks Michael, awesome.

>> Oh.

>> [INAUDIBLE] give me that.

I don't wanna like.

>> Okay, no, that's all right, that's all right, that's okay.

I am Colin Olden from Ann Arbor Michigan.

>> Hey Colin.

>> I was wondering, similar to what Wes was talking about.

CSS is getting really complicated and

we now kinda have all of the things that we were looking for before.

With Flexbox and being able to do all the different nifty layouts.

What do you think about the direction that CSS is going in?

Cuz they're just adding on more and more stuff and

in any other area of computer programming that's considered bloat.

>> And bad.

>> Sure. We need like a snow CSS.

[LAUGH] >> Right.

It was an Apple joke.

[LAUGH] [COUGH] Yeah, maybe.

Bit it, there is some guards.

I feel like the guards of CSS are doing a fairly good job.

I mean I know they're,

it's not like they taketh away from CSS cuz that's never going to happen.

Cuz it's, it's got to be backwards capability like forever.

So yeah, it's tough.

Cuz even things like, there's things that are like kinda in flux, right?

I'm trying to think of like cool examples or whatever.

But even variables in something that was like, was hotly debated for a minute.

I think it's pretty much too late.

Like, they're, they're coming.

And we're gonna get them no matter what.

But that, to think about the, think about what a change that is for CSS.

That's like the first like really super programmery things that's

happening to CSS.

And it's like, that's weird.

And we shouldn't let that like slip through the CSS gate unchecked, you know?

Like, I think most people agree that they like CSS variables.

I mean, remember when we did the,rai, raising hands for [UNKNOWN], and, or, or,

any, 0 people don't use a pre-processor, and that's wild.

So, clearly there's a need for, a, apparently a 100% need for variables.

[LAUGH] So it seems like probably a good idea for native CSS, though but is it?

Like, is every feature in a preprocessor right for CSS?

I think we'd all agree, probably not.

Some of those things belong in an abstraction layer.

And I can, I like thinking of CSS,

I like thinking that that's okay that we've added an abstraction layer to CSS.

And that maybe those things should stay in an abstraction layer.

Just like, you know, I figured this out at one time.

But, you know, we're like, you know, we're like, we're like, four or

five levels up the abstraction ladder when we're working in CSS from nothing.

From the bits and bytes of computers or whatever.

>> Oh, we're, we're about 50 levels up.

>> 50, 50 levels.

[LAUGH] >> Especially if you're running ruby on

the JVM, on top, no, it's just, it's turtles all the way down.

>> [CROSSTALK] Yeah, right, right. So, so literally binary.

And then it's just data storage.

>> Yeah. >> At that point, or whatever.

So, but, but that's okay, right?

The, those, those exist on purpose because it makes sense for them to be abstract.

That's not like we're sitting on a disaster,

we're actually sitting on a rather elegantly architected thing, right?

So maybe if this is just another one of those steps and

that those things just belong in an abstraction layer on top of CSS.

And maybe, maybe we're happy and that [LAUGH] if we just.

There's gonna be a little bit of friction right now between the abstraction layer

and the, it's parent which is CSS.

>> Hm. >> But, maybe that'll settle down.

I, I, unfortunately, I can't control it.

But we can yell at the office, spec office.

>> Thank you. >> Thanks, pal.

Want some cool shades?

>> No, thank you.

>> [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] [COUGH].

All right, your loss.

>> Hey! >> Hi, I'm Natalia, I'm from Austin, and

so I'm coming from a very similar background.

Fine art, graphic design, and very much print things.

And-

>> Uh-huh.

>> I actually spent six years teaching design.

And so my thing was, if you're consuming content you want to

create content about as much as you're consuming.

And there seems to be this, kinda you know now that I've left teaching it's

like everyone is really into getting tutorials.

And I guess, I still have that like, as soon as I learn it I'm going be

totally like writing it out cuz that's kinda my process and I just want to see.

How tied in is that for you?

I mean if, cuz sometimes I'd be like, I'm teaching that tomorrow,

I should learn that now, [LAUGH] and have something ready by the morning.

Sorry everyone's teachers do that, it's a big relief.

[LAUGH] And then how tied that, is that in there?

And also just with the amount of people who are like,

you're the Sass master, or you're the this.

How many things do you ever say?

Like, I'm going to now write about this thing just in

case I say something horrible.

Or does [CROSSTALK]. >> I wish I had that filter.

>> That's great.

[LAUGH].

>> [LAUGH] >> That's probably.

But it's, it,

don't, I, I discourage people from having too strong of a filter like that.

I just had somebody at lunch they're like, I have, I, I just write drafts and

then I throw them away and I never write anything.

I'm like, aw, that's sad.

People are scared, too scared to write in my opinion.

I think just write more, you know.

I sometimes I'll teach it before I write.

That's bad.

But I think that's a strong, a strong way to, to, to teach.

It sounds like you have all the rights instincts.

>> I'm already writing it.

I should probably shouldn't be but I am Instagram.

So it's like okay.

>> No, no.

Don't say that. You should be.

>> yeah.

That's the perfect moment to, to write is right, right after you learned that.

Because you have the most empathy and

remembrance of what it was like to not know it.

>> Hm.

>> So I think the second after, like the best words will flow from your fingertips.

About like, remembering that like, oh, yeah, that's when it clicked for me.

A huge percent chance that somebody hasn't had that click yet and

you can articulate it better than somebody who has known that for four years.

Cuz they just, they don't even remember what it was like to not know that, so-

>> And so I guess, second question was,

have you ever hidden a post afterwards, when you were like-

>> Hidden a post afterwards?

>> Like, like this, this one I should never have put up, or

you override yours in the.

I should, but I don't.

>> Okay. [LAUGH]. >> [LAUGH].

>> It's too, it's too.

There's too, it's weird on CSS, the tricks.

There's too many things that like digest it the minute I set publish.

>> Hm-hm. >> And there would be

too much of a paper trail.

>> What do you mean by digest it?

>> Like aggregators that like grab it and auto tweak it,

including my own thing that grabs it and auto tweaks it, you know?

>> [LAUGH].

So, I feel like it, it would be hard to like go find those in the room too.

You know, I just like, let it hang.

>> Then it like, if it leads to posts whats up with that whole thing.

>> Then yeah, then it's worse almost, it looks like I said something.

>> Right, right away.

>> Yeah.

>> That was a good question.

>> Alright. There you go.

>> Right. >> More, actually I won't take the one off

the top of my head.

>> Yeah [LAUGH]. >> [SOUND].

>> Hey there, Chris.

>> Hey. >> I'm Henry from Tampa.

So, this is more of a junior question, but I've just always kinda wanted to get a,

a straighter answer than what I've gotten, as far as like images are concerned, just,

I'm completely reckless when it comes to slapping a high res image on page, and

just going for it.

>> Oh. >> I'm scared of sprites.

>> It's all right.

>> I know, I know.

[COUGH] >> Oh, did you see those graphs?

>> I built my own wedding website, and

it takes five minutes to load because they're all like high res pictures.

But I'm terrified of sprites, I need to kinda get better at all that stuff.

But my question to you is like, what is the best way, two questions then.

Like, how.

What is the best practice for images as far as like, you know,

we're using big hetero-images now, where, you know, much higher quality images in

general sprites, where possible or as background images.

What's kinda the best practice for that whole mindset or how to approach it?

>> Right, I guess, it'd be easier to just think of one particular example, right?

Do you have, let's say you have a hero.

>> Right. >> The classic, like [SOUND] but

it's a beach in Tampa.

And it need and it's a, you know, this is a desk top website and your

average size of the browser window is like 1500 pixels I mean it's a big nice thing.

>> 3000 pixels

>> 3000 >> I'm just kidding [LAUGH].

>> I don't know like that would be,

that would be the worst asset on your whole website.

Let's say but you're willing to do that because this is so

vital to your beach condo rental business, you have to sell it.

You could, you should probably go these days I would

think like a little bit wider than that.

You know, I wouldn't say, you on, even that size, and especially a JPEG of like.

>> Yeah. >> Something like that,

that you'd need to necessarily go 2 x, maybe if you go like 1.5 x even, and

then lower that quality setting way down, and run it through an image optimizer.

And hopefully, that thing isn't anymore than like 100 or 200 k,

cuz even that's freaking enormous for an image, you know?

Like that this is my junnky process too.

It's not like I have a perfect one.

But then, also hopefully,

these days you can start using things like picture fill and the, and

the responsive images stuff so that you know you can detect if your if the if

the thing that's hitting your website is has a browser window with the 320 you're

not serving them that 3,000 pixel ad image you can't dude that's ridiculous.

>> Right. >> So you have [CROSSTALK].

>> I was exaggerating I compressed it down and

did that did that I just kind of wanted to get your.

>> Sure. >> Shout at it.

>> But like the it is the time is now for responsive images and stuff.

And it that because it's a hero probably it's a background image.

Not, not a in content image.

>> Right. Right. Yeah.

And that's even easier in CSS, because you can write media queries that say,

you know, media screen width max width, you know, 320 and

anything bigger than that will load your big one.

You can make different sized assets, swap them on CSS.

The browser will only download the ones that it needs.

It's a lot easier to be responsible with images in the CSS side.

And so then the world is your oyster there.

And then second question, how much monthly site traffic do you get?

>> Monthly site traffic?

Oh, I wish you could actually, I wish you could just make that,

there's a button to make it public in, in Google Analytics.

>> It would be cool. >> Cuz I

think it would be cool to just share that type of stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't know.

Like, like a bunch.

[LAUGH] No, css tricks gets like.

Six, seven million page views or something which is pretty good.

And [UNKNOWN] gets like 20. So

it's like way bigger though which is pretty cool.

>> That's pretty cool.

>> But it's like, those aren't just dumb numbers like,

like you could [CROSSTALK] you know we have like.

>> We have like awesome bragging points too.

>> Yeah, like we have [INAUDIBLE] >> Seven million on your [UNKNOWN].

>> With pagination. That's Ajax.

>> All right. >> So like, we could just be like,

you know what?

That 20's looking a little low.

Let's just remove Ajax pagenation, and now we have 15, you know?

[LAUGH] That would be like a jerk move.

>> Right. >> And, but

that number would just artificially inflate, so

I try not to put too much stock into it, but yeah.

Certainly, high numbers make money, so that's cool.

>> Yeah. [LAUGH] Thank you.

>> But yeah. >> Next question.

Lets give a, how many people use CodePen everyday or close to.

>> Did you get the coaster?

>> You get the coaster guys?

>> Yeah. >> That's a nice coaster.

[LAUGH] That's all, just saying.

>> I love CodePen, by the way,

I just, cause I just I get the idea for something webby or something like that.

And then I before CodePen, I would just do it Osium on my desktop.

Do it. Build it.

I build it then forget about it.

It's like I delete it six months from now.

>> Yeah. >> So now he's.

>> I think that's our subversive tactic here is that like, you'll never lose that.

You could lose, you could be two laptops in the future from the one you have now

and that code will still exist, and you can just search and find it.

People are going to value it more years from now when like old stuff is

still around instead of in your lost drop box.

[LAUGH].

>> Hi. My name is [UNKNOWN] I'm,

I'm originally from here but I live in Baton Rouge.

Chris totally stole my thunder.

I was going to ask about CodePen and just ask about the creation process because

it's, it's like, it, it's perfect as far being able to share your live code.

It's like GitHub but the with the preview aspect and-

>> [LAUGH] Yeah.

Let's hope they don't get into previews.

>> It is just, it, it's just very nifty for the community.

And I just wanted you to talk about your aspirations for

all your, just the how and the why cuz it's really, really beneficial.

>> Sure. I could do it probably pretty quickly,

cuz it's kinda like we were definitely not the first people to,

to build anything like that.

And it was like, I was reading on CSS tricks and I would always like,

I build demos because that's just what I've been doing forever, right?

And link to them such that you just see a preview of the demo.

And then you have, it's up to you, to view source, use the dev tools or

whatever to figure out how that demo works and that sucks.

It doesn't suck but it's not as cool as going to like JS Fiddle, right?

You get the four boxes and you can see what's going on, and you can edit it and

run it and is fork it and save copies and stuff.

I'm like, I was finding myself posting more just demos just on [INAUDIBLE].

Cause it's just a better thing for something like CS restrict.

So, I'm like, I don't mind that but I can't, like, I don't know anybody there.

Like it doesn't seem like they work on it all that much.

Like I'm losing traffic to that.

I can't put any ads on it,

which, you know, I'm sure that everybody hates ads and stuff.

But I, you know, I try to run a business with the site, so

like, I have to think about stuff like that.

And I was like, I'm gonna build my own this weekend.

>> [LAUGH].

>> [COUGH] And I had some friends help me and stuff and then the ideas just,

would just roll from there as far as, we could make it you know,

we're like, how do we make it find all of the cool stuff that people are building?

It's impossible to know.

So let's build a little interface where we can see the things that

people are building.

Oh, that's really cool.

How you can see them all?

Maybe we'll make that the home page and stuff.

It was just very iterative.

And in response to how we see people using it and stuff.

And then we're, and then just shortly after that we're like this is cool.

Let's just go for it you know?

And the two fellows I work with Tim and Alex were, were like, you know,

we did okay working at WWOOF when in the past this is like were going to take

a risk and everybody kind of quit their jobs and made a run for it and stuff.

And we talk about all this on CodePen Radio, we have little podcast where we

talk about what it was like starting it and the tech behind it and all that stuff.

And, yeah, People know ShopTalk.

But nobody listens to that one.

So. >> [LAUGH]

>> Start listening

to that one.

It's called CodePen Radio. Right.

>> Thank you. >> You want some glasses.

>> Free shades.

>> Free shades.

>> [INAUDIBLE]

>> [LAUGH] >> Hey.

I'm Ansley from San Francisco.

So, Rebecca started us out talking about how we should be very

comfortable to admit what we don't know and then go find it, and I think a lot of

us here are either self taught, or we're very familiar with learning on the fly and

Googling, but at the same time, we've been presented with all

this awesome information from experts in this specific thing.

How do you balance kind of learning on the fly and

then taking the time to really read up on a certain subject.

>> Mm, yeah, that's a good question.

We have like a dumb little catch phrase on chop talk show that's just like just

build websites.

Everybody, you know, is the,

the idea of being that you should learn what you need at the moment.

And like, the longer you just do the work,

you'll learn the things that you need to learn, you know.

Some people still feel a little like I'm getting behind even though I do the work.

But I feel like there's challenges arise just in your day to day building of

things, and if you're like, do I feel, feel there'll be repeating themes, or

there'll be like, something that like, you're bummed that you didn't know and

that it feels limiting, but it's it wasn't just a one-off, you felt that a number

of times in a row, then you can like, maybe self-identify that and be like.

You know what, this is, maybe we'll call this level up weekend and

I'm gonna dig into that and that kind of thing.

I wish I had a perfect answer but do you have something like, do you think of

something specific in mind that you like don't know that you wish you did?

>> Oh, it just happens all the time, right.

You're like, oh, I need to figure this out.

And then you're like, oh,

but I don't really know that thing that it's built on that.

Well, so maybe I should time learning that and then.

And then you're like, well,

I'm wasting time learning that, but I'm really trying to do this thing.

So not specifically, but.

>> Yeah, totally.

That's like, it's one, another one of those turtles all the way down thing,

where your just like, I can't learn that until I know this, and this, and this.

Yeah. [LAUGH] I know, that's hard.

I mean, I guess just try to learn the next thing down, and see.

It feels pretty abstract, but yeah, I mean, it happens to me all the time too.

I don't know nothing, you know?

Good luck ugh.

[LAUGH] Read, you know, but

I'm sure you do all that stuff, you know, that's like bummer advice.

>> Yeah. >> Maybe we can, maybe we can,

we sort it out at the party,

what is that thing that would be the next best thing to learn.

We get that question all the time at shop talk, too.

What do we learn next, you know?

Like, I know this, this, and this, what's the next thing I should learn?

And that's where that sound byte came from.

I was like, I can't tell you that.

You know, you need to let the flow of your work dictate that.

But you already have that it sounds like.

>> Totally. Thank you. >> Good luck.

>> You want some shades?

>> Totally.

>> [LAUGH] Okay.

Cool.

Thank you.

>> How we do it?

And good call shouting out to Rebecca for that keynote.

That was so good.

>> Yeah. >> That was like killer.

The flying lessons?

Like, that's like the best metaphor ever for for a keynote.

Go.

>> Okay. All right.

I get inspired by stuff on CodePen all the time.

>> And you are?

>> I'm Scott.

>> From? >> From New York.

>> Okay, hey Scott.

>> So, yeah.

I get inspired by stuff from CodePen all the time.

I'm just wondering like, if there's anything in particular that really

stands out to you, that, that you've seen?

Oh, like individual demos?

>> Yeah, like Anna Tudors, Felt the Baby Dino.

Her stuff really stands out.

>> Oh. >> So I am wondering if

there's anything your browsing at everyday.

So, like.

>> Yeah. >> What have you seen?

>> So, if I may just tack onto this question, who picks,

who does the editor picks?

It's you? Awesome.

>> It's some work.

I look at every pen that's ever created.

I risk getting a little intense, cuz there's like [LAUGH] A, there's like

a thousand-ish, a day, at least, that are ones that I need to look at.

We have some algorithms to figure out ones that are just, like,

kinda, don't need to be looked at, cuz they're just, clearly, little junk pens or

whatever, but yeah, there's still a ton.

And we don't have like, super good infinite loop protection, so

that's kind of a pain too, 'cause I'm like page page page, you didn't!

Then I have to like do database stuff to like fix their infinite loop in the code,

and then move on and stuff.

It takes some hours.

But yeah, I find ones all the time.

And there's, of course,

there's like a community of like people that are always killing it so

if you see Anna Tutor you have to look at it because it's gonna be awesome probably.

You know, or it will be really super mad about something too which is why

I always like those too because she'll has find some like esoteric browser bug and

she like makes this elaborate demo to demonstrate the bug, which,

I like just as much as her crazy math ones.

If you haven't seen her work she does, like, I've calculated how [LAUGH],

this solar system, she does a lot of geometric stuff.

So like, how like an, nine sided thing fits to make a sphere and

then unfold and turn into a dinosaur.

[LAUGH] [COUGH] She's pretty smart.

Yeah, so, I look for like, you know, all the big, you know,

we have a community that's grown and I can tell right away when they

post something new and it's good, but at the same time every single day I pick

people's pens that have never been picked before, just made cool stuff,

I don't know, I mean, it's a pretty cool place to see.

I don't know.

I wish I, I wish I had a better system for like, unearthing the greatest ones

cuz right now, it's just me, like, hand, hand thumbing through that.

So if you have any ideas for that, let me know.

We could use a guest picker some week.

Maybe we'll have you do that for us.

[LAUGH] >> Alright.

>> Yeah.

>> Next up. [SOUND]. >> I'm short. Hi.

>> Hi, Katie. >> I'm Katie from Austin.

So, I am a designer, sorry everybody.

But I know enough code to know what can be built.

But developers really like to kind of say no, are like really quick to say no.

So how do I get grumpy developers to not just automatically say no.

[LAUGH] And get excited about building new things that they might not know?

[LAUGH] [LAUGH] ugh, I knew this was coming

>> I know.

>> Katie. >> [LAUGH] [COUGH] Ooh,

I gotta a CSS stem cough.

>> Well I, u, [LAUGH] >> [UNKNOWN].

>> Well I would say like I mean, I went to the agency before and

this, while you recover from your cough there, just that we have developers, and

developers just got really good at saying no because they're abused a lot, so.

>> [LAUGH] >> You know, we're.

>> Is that where we're at?

>> Yeah. >> I think you're on to

something with that in that, I think a lot of us were.

I often don't work in that environment where there's a designer, like Katie,

like a mostly visual designer even on that is, that is armed and

dangerous like you are with some coding abilities, right?

And then, just the front end developer, and they're, like, make.

[LAUGH] I shouldn't even do this.

I should be more, like, click and whack on the tablet.

And then they throw it over to.

>> [LAUGH] >> And

then they hand off some kind of comp something to a developer.

And then, they're just tasked with, with building it.

And, so, I think, a ton of people are like that, right?

That's, like an, a, a typical agency model.

It's probably like that, a lot of products and stuff like that.

And then there's like the how do how does it get reacted to which is I think I

don't know depending on, on the, the power balance there whatever.

Sometimes front end developer's, like, okay, whatever you say and

they just build it.

And then there's like an empowerment movement of front end devs where it's

like, no, you know what, I'm gonna push back and

be like, you didn't use the colors we agreed on, or this layout with

the crazy sideways thing is too hard to build, so, no, or something.

And I think that's like healthy, right?

Some thing like that's too hard, or that's impractical or whatever.

But then it crosses the line into grump town, right?

[LAUGH] It crosses the line into just like, no this is too hard,

or it's my job to say no because I'm the protector of the website or

whatever where a more healthy balance is kind of like somebody who is more yes-y.

That gets a little bit more excited about you weird, hard ideas because you're

a designer and you probably have better intuition about that kind of thing and

that you should be more enthusiastic and fired up about those kind of moments where

I look at something and be like, that, that looks like a no moment.

But I'm gonna, maybe, I'll stew on it for minute and

try to make it a yes moment [INAUDIBLE].

And then, knowing when to,

when I, I even think pushing back is like a weird way to say it.

. It shouldn't be pushed back it should be

like, lets totally talk about this, and

I'm gonna explain to you why I'm kinda of saying no on this because I think it will

produce code that's too heavy or be too difficult interaction wise or

like, like I, I, you know, I have some design intuition too and don't like it for

some reason, it's more of a communication thing.

Even in your talk, you talked about having everybody in,

be involved way earlier in the process.

And I think moments like that are, come up less [COUGH] earlier in the thing.

I even talked with Nicole, right, from Spotify,

who was talking about how way early on they are, they're on the same room.

There's like the, the developers and

designers are talking to each other like, right away.

[SOUND] So I feel like moments where its just kind of like, they hold,

like open up your email to find,

like a disaster PSD in there that you have no idea what to do happens less when

you're all involved in the early meetings, which I think you know, right?

Do you have like ones you're thinking of, of that were like?

>> No, >> You got said no to?

>> I just, sometimes it's like,

guys why aren't you exciting about trying to figure out how to build something new?

I know this is possible.

And they're like, no.

>> [LAUGH] No!

Yeah, need some, we need to be yes people more or, you know, like the next time,

we all think of a hard no, you know, think of why, and see if,

see if a yes can come out of it, cuz it's almost certainly possible these days.

>> Yeah. [LAUGH] >> Thanks.

[SOUND].

>> Yeah. You got, you got mini-claps.

[LAUGH] Hi.

>> Hi, I'm Rachel from Baltimore.

>> Hi, Rachel.

>> And so I was wondering what your view is on ads in the future on the web.

>> Mm. >> Because the person who ended up

deciding on how we advertise on the web ends up,

ended up kind of regretting it, I heard on NPR.

>> Oh, really? I bet that was awesome.

>> And so- >> [LAUGH]

>> That's kinda like the person who

invented the nuclear bomb or whatever.

Guilty forever.

I mean, that's probably slightly worse.

But the. [LAUGH]

>> No, no, no.

Go with it. Go with it.

[LAUGH] >> Is it though?

Okay. But cool.

I'm sorry. >> So he was talking about you know going

more towards subscription services and, you know, people tend to ignore ads now.

>> Mm. >> And so what is your view on,

do you think people are willing to

pay or does it depend on the content, and?

>> Oh, for, for display advertising specifically?

>> Yeah, or not having as and just having subscriptions for the, to the site.

>> Yeah, right.

That's pretty cool.

Like, that's kind of ideal, right?

Cuz then you have like, those are your true fans.

They want something from you.

They want your ebook cuz they like you and they like your content, or

it does feel like, like a cleaner business model, doesn't it?

And slap an AdSense on there, and seeing like weird pill ads and stuff.

That seems gross.

It seems.

But, it's like there's still so much money slinging around that market, you know?

Like, I, it is tough, and it's changing, but I doubt display advertizing will ever

just kind of go away, and I suspect it to be a little more subversive in the future.

Like it's gonna get more, like, integrated in grody ways probably.

But it's probably.

There's just, it's a big market that isn't just gonna disappear overnight and,

matter of fact, I make money from display advertising and if I were to just get

rid of it tomorrow, that would be devastating to my business, you know.

Like, I need it, coz people still want to buy it and

may still have budgets to pay for it.

So I think maybe we can make it better.

Maybe we can change the, like we can make it,

we have higher morals surrounding it and be less tracky and gross about it.

We can make what happens when you click those ads less gross.

We can make them lighter on page loads.

We can make them look nicer, you know.

SVG has some strong possibilities with advertizing because of how flexible it is,

and how high resolution it can be, and light weight it can be, and accessible,

and you can have internal linking in it and stuff, and nice text in it and stuff.

SVG's like, kind of, as excited as I am about it, unfortunately.

He makes a pretty [LAUGH] compelling, good case for advertising.

So I wouldn't be surprised if SVG isn't used a lot more for

advertising in the future, but yeah.

It would, I don't know.

It's easy to yell at display advertising cuz it's so gross these days, but

like, I sus, you know,

I suspect the answer's fixing that rather than getting rid of that.

Thank you. >> Yeah thanks.

>> You want your glasses?

>> Oh come on.

There you go. >> Those are eBayable big time.

>> Okay. >> Hi my

name's Cody from Cincinnati who dey.

>> Oh yeah, it's like the opposite of who dat.

>> Don't

>> Don't, don't, don't >> I should let it go.

Okay I'll let it go.

Alright >> I didn't know that [UNKNOWN].

>> [LAUGH] We had it first.

>> What if my chair just fell over?

>> Yeah.

So the question I wanted to ask though.

I, I work at a very small shop and we're kind of our own research and development.

Kind of our we don't have anybody in the company that does that for us.

I was just wondering what, what, what do you think is the best way.

To stay up on current trends.

To kinda get, like, connect to the community.

And, you know, kinda know what the next big, big thing is.

>> Oh.

>> In the, in the future.

>> Yeah, I didn't know about stuff, before that-

>> Yeah. >> Cause,.

>> Well, and, would, just stay up on, ya know, like-

>> I think it was last CSSdev conf, I did a thing too, but

it was like, how to stay up to date, I know I did this at one point.

>> 'Cause it was kind of like the whole talk was around somebody like you

asking me that question, and

I was like, I'm going to try and answer that in a big long boring talk.

[LAUGH] But it was like, it was kinda like, what exactly are you asking?

Are you asking.

Is there, like, some secret website that everybody goes to, and they, and

that has all the answers on it?

And you can read it?

'Cause, there kind of is.

There's kind of like some pretty good weekly newsletters, that,

like, are pretty good and shelling out that kind of thing.

Like, I, I don't know, I, I can link up the slides for you, but it's kind of.

Maybe you've even heard of them.

There's totally, like, a CSS Weekly.

>> Mm-hm. >> And HTML5 Weekly, a JavaScript Weekly.

And they're, like, pretty well done.

>> Yeah.

>> And that is kind of like the answer of staying up to date.

If you just read that thing once a week,

you'll probably be doing okay as far as knowing what's up.

And if you, and if you hear things that are just repeated a lot.

Like, you just, you are at this thing and you heard people talk about.

On CSS I heard a whole bunch of people like mention after CSS,

now that's like an ear worm for you almost because enough people mentioned it

that you'll probably maybe think of it next time a situation like that comes up.

So just being like awake and aware of stuff like that helps.

Another possible thing that you could be asking me,

like a theoretically you I'm not trying to like put words in your mouth or

whatever, is that like Im like a manager or

something and I make technical decisions on projects that I make and I don't wanna.

Screw those up because if I do my boss is mad my team is mad I'm mad at

myself or whatever.

So that kind of like that's a like a slightly different and harder

question that I kind of I kind of intro'ed before I had a good answer for it.

But is, is that the case is it like coming from a place of

like worry that if you don't keep up you're going to do a bad job?

>> It's, it's unfortunately our shop now is, is coming.

from management that just was stuck from ten years ago.

And we like, in the last year, our,

we've gone, we've skyrocketed in like new technologies.

>> Well it sounds like thats all good news.

>> Yeah, but like even I came to this conference and

there's just things that just [LAUGH] blew my mind.

>> Yeah.

>> And I just.

In the future, I'd like to stay up on, all that stuff.

>> Yeah. >> All that stuff, so.

>> [INAUDIBLE] >> Yeah!

[LAUGH] >> It's actually not bad advice, you know.

>> [LAUGH]. >> Hey, he just answered your question!

>> [LAUGH] >> Thanks, Jason!

>> Yeah, you know, it's mostly just you know, be awake and aware and stuff.

I, I doubt.

Huge fish are gonna swim by that you should've caught.

You know, like you'll >> Right.

>> Hear about things that, that as you need to know.

And, you know when you're doing a good job for your, for your clients and

business and product and, and when you're not, you know.

I'm, I'm sure you have some intuitions as far as that.

And if you're do, and

if, if, if the trajectory is good right now, just roll with it.

>> Cool.

Well, thank you. >> Yeah.

Thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO]

[CROSSTALK] I was giving you the special blue one that's only the one left, but

you can take the green.

Go for it man.

>> Hey, good afternoon.

I'm Gunther from Miami, Florida.

Earlier today I asked Dan Ceaderhome the, the same question.

So I'm hoping to get a different perspective.

I asked the question of we have a, a lot of backend developers that are now

Being suggested to become full stack developers so

they are starting to dive more into the front end.

Now a lot of these guys don't have a lot of experience doing so, so

is there any advice on how to get them to think more like a front end developer and

develop their eye other than fire them and get new people?

>> Oh you were the one who was the firer, that is a good one.

[LAUGH].

Maybe I should up the ante.

[INAUDIBLE] [LAUGH]. We should have,

put a trap door under their desk.

[LAUGH] [COUGH].

No, that's not right.

I mean, so you, you want to be like,

you're not doing as good of a job as I think you should be doing so.

How can we get them to do as good of a job as you think they should be doing?

>> Well, it's more of like, you know, thinking, you know.

>> Yeah. >> I guess a lot of us kind of like,

see in pixels.

>> Do they want to get better?

Do you have a sense that,

that if you show them the light that they would appreciate that?

>> I think so, I mean, they're definitely smart guys and

wanna learn but I think they're just not interested in front end.

But they have to be.

So it's.

You know, it's quite a difficult situation.

>> You, you, on a day to day basis you like work with these people, right, like?

>> Yes. >> And you produce products together.

>> Yes. >> And maybe there's some moment,

where you like, got some HTML from them that was like a bummer, right?

So that's like a mini learning moment, you can just be like, hey you know,

how you like.

Put some like, like a div around something that's obviously a header you know?

Like, that's I don't know.

>> It's not written.

>> It's not correct or whatever.

But it's that do do you do that kind of stuff [CROSSTALK] then their

like whatever.

>> And I do all kinds of little sessions with one on one and but

it you know, I find that, that can only go so far you know.

They need to perhaps spend a little more time and

I just don't know how to get them to feel that way without.

>> Maybe you could force it

to like a job switch day

>> You know, forcing it

>> [LAUGHING] >> And you,

you'd have to do eachothers jobs for a day

>> Freaky Friday or something >> Yeah, Freaky Friday.

I wonder if there's some, some, some tricks like that.

And, or I wonder if the're at, at a back end conference right now on

a microphone being like, I work with this guy [LAUGHING].

>> [LAUGH] [COUGH] He just doesn't get back end you know.

>> No, no.

>> Do you think, is he, but do, but maybe there is some empathy both ways, you know.

>> Yeah. >> Like maybe, maybe, you know,

maybe they are good at what they do and, and, and just, you know, they

just don't care about divs, but you need to get them to care somehow, you know.

>> Yeah, that's, that's really the issue.

How to get them to care.

>> Yeah or maybe you can get like access to just enough of

that back end code base so that you can mess with, you do that part?

>> Yeah I'm a full stack developer and

they're expected to be the same, that's really the issue.

>> Oh I see, so you're all full stackers, only you're full stacker with a more.

Front end >> That's why I'm here.

>> Mm-hm.

>> Tough spot to be in.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm that one guy in the company.

>> Maybe you should try to like get a raise and then they'll be all jealous and

you'll be like no, boss just said I'm super good at divs so.

[LAUGH] Anyway, good luck.

I know that, that's tough.

[CROSSTALK] To get other people to care when they don't.

That's tough.

>> Well, thank you.

>> Classic.

>> Hi.

>> Hey!

>> I'm Jason Pamental.

I'm from Providence, Rhode Island.

And I just, one comment with a couple of these things,

'cause it sort of relates to what I wanted to ask you about.

I think a lot of these things come back to why.

Being able to say why you want the developer to do that thing.

To get away from the Grumpyville.

To give them, like, a reason.

Or a reason why they should care about the divs.

And I, I think that's in part incumbent upon as designers to

be able to communicate it better.

>> Mm. >> But I know it doesn't always work.

But I think it gives a much more compelling reason.

And it relates to the thing I wanted to ask you about.

because.

I tweeted this earlier.

I, and I've been talking about this for a while.

I think we kind of live in an accidental profession.

We sorta found our way here.

>> Ooh. Neat. >> And, like, we, you know, everybody came from different directions.

And we don't really have a good way to quantity that knowledge.

And as a parent who's paying $200,000 for my kid to go to college.

[NOISE].

Yes I know. >> [LAUGH]

>> I think that like I

could spend that money going to conferences and

learn way more specifically about what I wanna do with my life.

And we don't have a good way to actually I don't know put a put

a medal on it or something.

Like in CodePen you see people learning stuff and doing stuff all the time.

>> Mm-hm. >> Like badging or something.

What are your thoughts about that way of kind of quantifying our knowledge?

>> Alternative learning methods or something?

Or quantifying knowledge?

>> Yeah I mean like well who would you wanna hire?

Would you wanna hire somebody that writes awesome stuff on CodePen?

Or somebody that took a class in CS that may or

may not have any real applicability?

>> Yeah.

Yup.

I don't know. I don't know.

[CROSSTALK] I don't know, I just.

Well, no, you know what I mean, though.

Just because you made something good on CodePen is not not an auto hire, for sure.

'Cause >> No, no, no, but,.

>> Who knows what kind of crazy, you know like, I could love the work you do there,

but you just are hard to work with or I have a super narrow skill set,

or whatever, and see that's a rough gauge for, for hireability.

I'd way rather have somebody who.

Like clearly like he was awesome

at googling things and could write like super solid emails.

>> [LAUGH] >> Like that's what I that's what I

[LAUGH] You know, that but seriously like that soft skill stuff that gets talked to,

to death is so, so vitally important.

>> Sure. >> Above even above even tech and stuff.

Yeah that's tough though that you're, you're shelling out for

an education that you're,

you're pretty sure isn't as good as noodling around on the Internet.

Well, I I mean, I'm being a little flip,

because I'm sure his degree is not gonna be in the crazy shit that I do every day.

>> Yeah, right- >> So that's fine.

>> And he is totally learning how to do like, keg stands and

all kinds of like, totally-

>> [LAUGH] >> Yes, actually,

we hear about that a lot.

>> Valuable lifestyle.

>> But it's, it's actually, it's more of a broader question for

our own industry, because we have,

we struggle with this with schools and people that come out of school and.

They don't really,

like it's tough for schools to keep up with what we do every day.

>> Yeah, right. And

it's incentivized the wrong way, too, right?

Like, I don't know.

Like, if you're really good at this stuff do you want to teach it?

You, you're a hero if you do because you could get another job where you'd get

double that and work half as much.

You know, so isn't that tough?

>> In the draft program people should just be pulled out of school early and

be given millions of dollars.

>> [LAUGH] Can, can I go back to school for that?

>> [LAUGH] >> Anyway, thank, thank you.

>> Good luck. Yeah. >> All right, Skip.

These are the last two people we have time for.

>> Okay. Sure.

>> So you're, you're quite prolific with the things that you put out to

the public between CSS tricks, CodePen.

And Shop Talk Show.

And, and as the guy from lunch who has more drafts than, than published posts.

Do you guys still get,

do you still get anxiety over the things that you publish out to the public?

And if not, how did you get over that?

If so, how do you continue to, to.

Get over that.

>> Yeah. So that's writing specifically, kind of.

>> Right. >> Yeah, it is kind of intimate, right?

Cuz you're like, this is my thoughts.

I'm about to hit publish and people are going to read them.

And for, you'd think that it would be more nerve-wracking, just with,

with an audience.

Just cuz, like, people will read it when I hit publish.

I know that they will.

And that's, that's actually kind of awesome and is.

A huge part of the motivation why I do it at all 'cause it's totally cool to

know that what you write people actually read.

But at the same time it's like it should be morning for, for might just be

time 'cause I've done it enough that I don't, I don't worry about it anymore.

I've cultivated a night, nice enough group of

people that read the site that I know I'm not going to get like skewered.

And I'm confident enough in my words and thoughts to know that I'm not

saying something that I know to be not true, you know, like, and, and

if I'm totally wrong about something, I happen to know enough about CSS.

There would be, would actually, you know, this feels like dumb and cocky to say, but

it would be interesting to why I didn't know it.

You know, it'd be like, I know enough,

I have a deep enough knowledge base around this thing.

But if I was totally wrong about something, that would be like, weird.

Like, wow, that's, that was a weird gap of knowledge I had not appreciated and

I would probably write another article about that, you know.

Stuff like that.

I don't know, I'm just, I, I, it's just straight up through time and

have doing it enough and just being comfortable with my

own process that I don't, I don't worry about it anymore.

And that, that would be my advice, just to do it more.

Just if it's uncomfortable, do it anyway.

Then do it again, and then do it for like five more years.

>> All right. Thank you.

>> And please do.

>> Hey, Chris.

I'm Maya Benari from San Fransisco and I guess I'm closing out these questions.

>> Yeah. >> I hope it's a good one.

So we've heard a lot of topics and

ideas get brought up in, a few times again and again from at this conference.

What's something that hasn't been brought up that you think should have or

that we should know about or be talking about?

>> Oh.

>> Uh-oh. [LAUGH].

>> Like, it's on you now.

>> No.

[LAUGH] This is, it's funny.

It's, a lotta times at, at at, at Christopher and

Aria events there's the, like, no future thing.

>> Oh, yeah. The future thing.

Yeah. >> But this isn't, this is different.

I wasn't trying to be like those of, illegal question or anything.

>> Yeah. >> Cuz it,

it's totally, it's a good, it's a good final question.

>> She phrased it pretty well.

>> Yeah, yeah.

[LAUGH].

>> She worked around it.

>> SVG of course.

There was only one good talk about SVG but not enough.

There should be more.

[LAUGH] That's a big deal.

>> Yeah.

>> Cuz it's, I think, I think.

whatever.

Scalable graphics on the web.

It's a big deal and.

Of learning about it and doing stuff about it.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna plan to write about it even more.

So definitely, if you have never used it or don't know anything about it.

Definitely, like, look into using it.

>> Mm-hm. >> Because I

think a lot of people already have intuition as to, of what a.

If a graphic started life as vector.

>> Yeah.

>> You can just kind of tell, you know?

Like.

That did.

>> Right. >> You can just tell by looking it.

When that hits a website it should probably be SVG, and it is.

Good job, Christopher.

>> Yay.

>> But sometimes it's not, you know, and you look at websites and

you're like, they made that a JPEG for some reason, that's weird.

So that's just something that,

that, you know, you know should probably get higher representation and stuff.

There's also been some.

Feel like the vibe of the conference has been there's something we

don't have to do.

>> [UNKNOWN] >> You know what you're gonna do it.

>> I can do it. >> I have all these funny slides so

it's gonna be like it's gonna be like hey my name is

Chris Coyer

>> [LAUGH] >> jokes.

>> [LAUGH] >> I run a little website for

designers and

then I was gonna be like I'm a totally different person who runs a different.

>> [LAUGH].

>> And then just jokes and stuff.

This is weird.

>> [LAUGH].

>> [LAUGH] But I was good, I took some bunch of notes of things.

But I was gonna this like the, like if I could just,

as I feel like, these are the things that tied the conference together a little bit.

And one of them was kinda this, and I know that's vague and

of course everybody wants to give a talk that's, that intends to help people.

But like sometimes you go to conferences, and

people give talks that are kinda like, look at me and the cool things I do.

Look at my portfolio, you know, and that's like.

Kind of okay, cuz you can sit there and be impressed for a minute.

But I like these conferences that are more like, I learned something and

I think your process can be better.

So there was so much of that stuff going on.

That we're talking about making your job better,

your process better, helping people, making things more accessible and stuff.

And that was a huge vibe going on here though.

Was totally rad.

This is funny,

a couple, I feel like a, two years ago, the vibe was like style guides don't work.

[LAUGH] >> Right.

>> Maybe three years ago, where they were like, we tried it and

it's so hard to get everyone to buy into it.

This was a big one here that everybody's doing this now.

Like, I think maybe it was bootstrap or something that people are, like.

Like constantly talking about style guides and

how effective they are to their business,

that's an interesting vibe that's happening in the community right now.

This is one that I'm feeling that, that, that there's so many tools,

that was the thing, that people are feeling overwhelmed with tools and

stuff, that we're now catching up to tools.

It's not us waiting around for things to get better.

That's a thing.

You know? Were like catching up

to browser abilities.

It's not us waiting around for rounded corners you know,

like it's a totally different vibe than it was a couple of years ago.

And that, and that, and that when we just say like we're just little webs.

We just make websites.

You know? Like none of us do that anymore.

What we what we work on are these incredibly elaborate systems and

that's what a lot of it talks about too is like how can we just deal with this one

little part of this giant system we're trying to build?

We're not just little website builders and I know that.

Has nothing to do with all your questions, though, all of that stuff we said.

>> No, this is great [CROSSTALK]. >> But

that's, that, those, I think, are the,

the tie that binds in this conference are those, those are my #bigthoughts for this.

[LAUGH] >> Thank you.

>> Cool, sure, thanks for asking.

The last question, yay.

[APPLAUSE]

[COUGH] [APPLAUSE].