[MUSIC] 0:03 CSS Dev Con 2014, thanks for being here. 0:05 Does anybody have any questions right away. 0:07 >> Is this what we're going to do? 0:11 I feel like you guys maybe Q and A'd out. 0:11 So but just dig deep. 0:14 And let's just get nerdy about CSS. 0:16 This is CSS Dev Con. 0:18 I know somebody's got some stuff. 0:19 I primed some of you. 0:23 [LAUGH] >> Okay, I have a question. 0:25 >> Yeah. 0:27 >> All right. 0:28 How did you get into CSS, how did you get into web design? 0:30 >> Oh, we're gonna go old school. 0:31 Back, back in the day. 0:34 >> Yeah. 0:35 College was boring. 0:37 >> Yeah? >> I don't know. 0:40 I did a graphic design degree. 0:43 >> Mm-hm. 0:45 >> And it was okay. 0:45 >> Yeah. 0:46 >> But then I left, and I was in print design. 0:47 I was working in Prepress. 0:49 Has anybody ever work in Prepress? 0:52 >> Woo! >> [APPLAUSE]. 0:53 >> It's super nerdy, right? 0:55 It's nerdy in like all the right ways. 0:56 It's like you get to use no creativity. 0:58 [LAUGH]. 0:59 >> [LAUGH]. >> But you, but you, but. 1:00 Well I shouldn't say that. 1:01 You're creativity is funneled into like figuring out how things are gonna fit 1:02 onto a press sheet. 1:05 And what backs up to what. 1:06 >> Mm-hm. 1:07 Right. 1:08 >> And where there's gonna be creep. 1:08 And do you need to account for that? 1:09 And you use like, esoterical tools and software and 1:10 stuff to do all that kinda thing. 1:13 You have to be really detail oriented. 1:15 And it's kinda like analog CSS. 1:17 In a way. 1:20 I just made that up, I won't lie [LAUGH] That was really good. 1:21 >> Yeah yeah, I was there, I was there. 1:23 I bought it. 1:25 >> Yeah and then I just was on the side, 1:27 I was like doing websites because it's just clearly more fun. 1:28 >> Yeah. >> And 1:31 then, took any opportunity to take a web job and 1:32 when came along I was like okay I'll take it. 1:34 >> Yeah. 1:36 Go, so how did sis, CSS Tricks get started? 1:38 >> Oh, it was like a ploy for money. 1:41 >> Okay. 1:43 >> Yeah, it was like a, I'm gonna get wicked rich doing this, so 1:43 [LAUGH] writing about floats, it's gonna be great. 1:47 >> Yeah. >> It kinda was though, 1:52 that's the that was the kinda the old. 1:53 >> I mean, this is like a literally, a true story. 1:55 >> Yeah. >> I had like a, 1:58 you know, a buddy and we're like, 1:58 we're like looking at people who really are like not getting rich obviously. 2:01 But get, but making like some money with Google AdSense and garbage. 2:04 You know, we were like, that'd be cool if we could just. 2:07 Get, buy some domain names. 2:09 Fill 'em up with content. 2:11 >> Right. >> Throw Google AdSense all over it. 2:12 We'll make, like, 300 bucks a month. 2:13 >> Right. >> Beer money forever. 2:16 >> Yeah. [LAUGH] >> You don't have to. 2:17 >> [LAUGH] >> Yeah, and it's gonna be awesome. 2:19 And he, at the time, was working for, like, Adobe call support. 2:20 >> Yeah. 2:23 >> Which was, like, pretty soulless. 2:24 But he knew what, not that job, but 2:25 just like can you imagine answering the phone for that and be like ooh. 2:27 >> Yeah. 2:31 >> He knew what people asked. 2:34 He knew what phone calls came over and 2:35 over so that, that would translate into a pretty good headline probably. 2:37 >> Yeah. >> Like at least a CO friendly one. 2:40 >> Yeah. 2:42 >> And we would fill it up with stuff. 2:42 It'll be like Photoshop help and design help. 2:44 All these ones that were just like perfect domain names to 2:46 fill with garbage content and throw Ad Sense on. 2:49 >> Yeah. >> And then Adobe's like that's not 2:51 a great idea. 2:53 >> You got a like a little. 2:54 >> Little cease and desist action. 2:55 >> Did you write them back. 2:56 Maybe you should, write better [CROSSTALK] products. 2:57 >> They paid. 2:58 They had to buy out. 2:59 >> [LAUGH]. 2:59 >> We, we got a good lawyer. 3:00 >> Oh yeah. 3:01 Well there you go. 3:02 Beer money right there. 3:03 >> It was like a $100. 3:04 >> sweet. >> [LAUGH]. 3:04 >> [COUGH] [LAUGH] Sauce. 3:06 [LAUGH] You're like, I'll take it. 3:07 >> Okay. 3:10 >> And then but, but so 3:11 it was a network of blogs, you know, and she thought that would be cool too,. 3:11 >> Yeah. >> You know, kinda prestigious. 3:15 >> That might work out pretty good. 3:16 >> Yeah. 3:18 And CSS trace is one of them. 3:19 Which is just garbage. 3:20 It was amazing. It was a bleak time in CSS. 3:22 Nobody's writing about it. 3:24 In fact the vibe in CSS was kinda like eh, can we stop talking about this? 3:26 >> Right. >> What, what's, it's, what has, 3:30 what can be said about CSS has been said. 3:32 >> Was that? What that during the Dot Com Crash? 3:35 Well that was, it was 2007-ish. 3:36 >> Yeah. >> And that was in the vibe. 3:37 The browser scene wasn't good. 3:38 >> Yeah. >> You know it was pretty stale. 3:40 >> Mm-hm. >> And 3:42 I was like three styles to make cool headers for you websites. 3:42 [LAUGH] And so, have you tried letter spacing negative one pixels. 3:46 It's so cool, you know? 3:49 [LAUGH] I was just oblivious idiot. 3:51 That article is still up. 3:52 [LAUGH] You can find it. 3:53 [LAUGH] The worst. 3:57 >> Yeah. [COUGH] 3:57 >> But I liked it. 3:59 >> Yeah. >> Cuz I was, you know, 4:00 I was like, screwing around with WordPress. 4:01 >> Yeah. >> And figuring stuff out and, 4:03 and, and blogging about it. 4:05 And then I had this super-bad technique that I published that was, like, 4:07 it was like a bunch of paragraphs on top of each other. 4:10 Right? So the page had to scroll. 4:13 >> Yeah. >> And then I 4:14 made a ping in Photoshop that was, like, white to- 4:15 >> Transparent? 4:18 >> Transparent, yeah. >> Yep. 4:19 >> And then I fixed positioned it on the bottom. 4:20 >> Of course. >> So 4:22 as you scroll it looks super cool like the words are just coming out of the ether. 4:22 >> Yeah. [LAUGH]. 4:26 >> But it was the worst it was just over the content so 4:28 you couldn't select over it. 4:30 >> Okay. >> And 4:31 you know it was like totally not good advice to give anybody really. 4:32 But it made it into one of those like Smashing magazines, 4:35 100 coolest tips ever post, like they did back then. 4:38 [LAUGH] I was like, yes. 4:42 >> [LAUGH]. 4:43 >> Then I like, redesigned the blogs, I am like, 4:46 I am getting, I am losing subscribers. 4:47 [LAUGH] Because there is no cool caller actions. 4:49 >> [LAUGH]. 4:52 >> And then it was all uphill. 4:55 >> Okay. 4:56 >> No, just a, you should see my analytic growth for that site. 4:57 It's just, there's like no cool spike. 5:00 There was that one spike, back in 2007 and then it's just been. 5:02 >> Well, that, that's what cool, I'm a big fan, of course, 5:06 but, one of the things that, that you say is that. 5:09 I read somewhere your, you had an article was like your super power is 5:10 that you're able to work on something over like a lunch. 5:15 For a long-term growth. 5:20 And just keep on working on it. 5:21 Make it better and better over time. 5:22 >> Yeah. >> [COUGH] But, just basically in a. 5:23 >> [CROSSTALK] Home shirt yesterday? 5:24 It was like, slow and steady wins. 5:25 >> Yeah. 5:27 >> [UNKNOWN] It was badass shirt. 5:28 I was like, oh yes. 5:29 It totally does. 5:30 >> Yeah. >> If you just stick with it and 5:31 don't give up ever. 5:32 >> Yeah. 5:33 >> You'll either win or die. 5:34 >> [LAUGH] [LAUGH] Oh, man. 5:35 Well if any one has any questions we have a few books of 5:39 a response to typography to give out. 5:44 And also Cool Shades. 5:46 Also it might get answered by Chris Coyier. 5:47 So there you go. 5:49 So just come up to the mic and and, and there you go. 5:50 Have a call to action. 5:53 Cut the mic. 5:55 >> Here we go. 5:57 Just then. 5:57 [LAUGH] >> Good afternoon. 5:59 And I wanted to, you know I, you spoke of this very briefly, but 6:03 I had a bigger question. 6:08 By the way, my name Aleed and. 6:10 >> Where you from? 6:12 >> I'm from Toronto, and I'm a volunteer. 6:14 >> we, we're all here certainly because I'm sure we 6:17 all love development and we all love the web. 6:21 And you know, we realize the web pretty much going to be everything that we do. 6:25 Now, in reference to your personal experience with the hacker. 6:32 [BLANK_AUDIO] 6:39 And with what's been going on, you know, with the iCloud leak and, and 6:42 all these cards that are now floating around the net. 6:46 Do you think that right now, we are in a situation where, I mean, we love the Web. 6:50 And we're investing so much into the Web. 6:55 But now the Web is going to potentially have a security issue. 6:57 [INAUDIBLE] >> Sorry about that. 7:02 >> Yep. 7:06 >> [LAUGH] Probably. 7:07 Like you have to do a good job. 7:09 I mean certainly you would think that the Dropbox security team is 7:11 a little smarter than the average bear at security. 7:15 And they somehow screwed the pooch on that one, right? 7:19 There's like a, there's like, a paste bin somewhere with my password on it. 7:22 That sucks. 7:25 >> [LAUGH]. 7:27 >> So, I don't know how to fix that you know. 7:28 I'm just like, I hope some smart people do, do a good job. 7:31 >> [LAUGH]. >> But yeah [LAUGH] we need to be like, 7:35 maybe more mad about it or. 7:37 They're more serious about it or more, more, more something. 7:39 It would be a shame if we just let these things happen, 7:42 be like, oh I'm so mad, I'm gonna change password and forget about it, you know? 7:44 [LAUGH] Like maybe we should like, mm, take to the streets. 7:48 [LAUGH] Do they do that? 7:52 Can you protest on the web? 7:54 Maybe we should. 7:56 Cuz we should gi, this, this is kind of a big deal. 7:56 It's funny to, to laugh about, but you're right. 7:58 It sucks when security things happen and, and, and. 8:00 Right. >> And, and you know? 8:05 I just it's, it's more also about like and again I, 8:06 I go back to your show where that, that package is kinda. 8:08 >> Yeah. >> He said he found a scan a PSD of 8:11 a passport and then he threw in a photo. 8:14 Then he found a PSD of a, of a signature. 8:18 Then used like, he knew he'd be all sorta like all good. 8:20 >> Yeah, that was a weird situation. 8:24 I don't know if anybody doesn't always talk about it. 8:26 Somebody just did that to me. 8:28 They just made a fake driver's license like poorly Photoshop and 8:29 they send it to my hosting company. 8:33 And they're like, look it's me. 8:34 Don't worry about it. 8:36 Give me access to all this stuff. 8:37 >> Yeah. Like awesome. 8:38 And then it you know, it kinda like got worse from there. 8:39 But it's just the moral of that story is that, that sucked and. 8:42 [LAUGH] You know, [LAUGH]. 8:46 [COUGH] And I lucked out because I was able to, if you haven't heard the show. 8:46 I invited the dude on the podcast to talk to me personally. 8:51 And he like used some fancy router technology to stay anonymous or whatever. 8:54 And I talked to him. 8:59 And you know, it's not like he was cool. 9:00 I mean it was an interesting show, but I'm still like fuck that guy you know. 9:02 [LAUGH]. 9:06 >> It's not like we're buddies now. 9:07 [LAUGH]. >> So, so you're definitely not gonna, 9:09 you're definitely gon, not gonna have like a beergate. 9:10 >> [LAUGH] I hope not. 9:12 Yeah, yeah. 9:13 Cool. 9:14 Cheers man. 9:15 >> Yeah. >> So I worked for 9:17 someone who as a producer for a site back in the day. 9:17 He actually did autographs, like he actually had gif, 9:21 like a two bit gif of his signature. 9:24 And then later on someone cashed a check with that two bit signature that they put 9:26 on the check. 9:30 >> Two bit? >> Yeah. 9:30 >> Like it was pixel disaster? 9:31 >> Yeah, it was, it was act, it was back in the day, like 90s. 9:32 >> [LAUGH]. 9:34 >> It's like he had this ugly, like, you know, no it was not ping 24, 9:34 it was just crazy. 9:38 So my moral of the story is like, security is gonna be a big issue going forward. 9:38 Definitely do not invite people by putting your signature in a gif on the web. 9:45 >> Yeah, true. 9:49 You know what? 9:50 Crap! 9:50 I should think about that. 9:51 Cuz I have, I have a signature.psd in my Dropbox that I 9:52 like to have around in case I need to paste it onto a document. 9:56 I should probably get that out of there. 9:58 >> [LAUGH]. 10:00 We're all learning today. 10:01 You know? Next person. 10:02 >> hey, I'm Wes also from Toronto. 10:04 So when I got first got started with HTML CSS it was just that, HTML CSS. 10:07 Little bit of JavaScript, maybe jQuery. 10:12 Now I'm a teacher and I'm teaching people HTML, CSS, and JavaScript but. 10:15 What comes along, is there like, well what about all these frameworks in Sass and 10:20 Less and JavaScript and Angular, and Backbone. 10:23 And they, they just wanna start at the top. 10:26 So we all know you can't start just with Angular or Backbone. 10:29 You have to learn JavaScript first. 10:33 So what do you say to people. 10:35 That want to get in there. 10:37 >> Yeah, that's tough, they, that's what your vibe is? 10:39 That's the vibe from the students? 10:41 >> Yeah, exactly, they're like, I wanna learn, like the coolest stuff first, 10:42 before I know like the fundamentals. 10:46 You gotta like, crawl before you walk, right? 10:48 >> Yeah, Yeah. 10:49 You have a, you have a hard situation is that what you have to be like? 10:50 >> Well, so [INAUDIBLE]. 10:53 >> Settle down kids, you have to crawl before you can walk. 10:54 >> [LAUGH]. 10:56 >> That's not gonna go well, right? 10:57 >> No, that's the thing you, you always have to be like the, 10:58 the like Debbie Downer. 11:01 Being like, well unfortunately you have to learn regular CSS and JavaScript first. 11:02 >> I bet there's like. 11:07 I didn't though. Like you know I learned zip- 11:08 >> Yeah. >> Query first right? 11:10 So maybe you can maybe you can, you can play around with jQuery because I 11:10 think maybe that will like satisfy them early on. 11:14 >> Yeah. >> Because you can totally be 11:16 like dollar sign a dot on click and alert high you know. 11:18 And you and that's like feels pretty powerful and 11:22 it's like three lines of jQuery can be like. 11:24 Yeah. >> Okay, now you have a little taste and 11:26 now use the powers responsibly. 11:29 Or maybe you can select placate some of it early on, you know? 11:31 >> Yeah we tried to like dangle it in front of them and say all right. 11:36 >> Yeah. >> Now we gotta 11:39 >> I think angular 11:40 is a rough place to start. 11:42 [LAUGH]. 11:43 >> So, cool. 11:46 Thanks. 11:46 >> Well thank you. 11:47 >> Good luck man, you're, you're a hero. 11:47 >> Good luck with your life. 11:49 >> Teaching the hardest things there is to teach probably. 11:50 >> Oh, wait. 11:52 Would you like a copy of the book? 11:53 >> Yes. 11:53 >> Okay, cool. 11:54 [LAUGH]. 11:55 >> Why else would he come up. 11:57 >> Thank you. 11:58 >> All right, Chris. 11:58 >> Yay. >> Great to see you again. 12:00 I wanna talk about your podcast which we've, 12:02 besides the hacker thing you've kinda skipped over. 12:04 And come on Shop Talk Show. 12:08 >> Shop Talk Show. 12:10 [APPLAUSE]. 12:10 >> I was expecting that to come next. 12:12 So you should listen to the one that we just published yesterday. 12:13 It's, it's kinda funny. 12:16 Me and Dave do web standards southern gentlemen in it. 12:17 >> [LAUGH] 12:21 >> Are you drinking like, mint juleps [INAUDIBLE]? 12:21 >> [LAUGH] Yeah. 12:23 >> Okay. 12:24 >> I believe in web standards. 12:24 >> [LAUGH]. >> So, so, I've, I've, listened to, 12:28 yours is probably one of the first podcasts I got a chance to listen to. 12:31 And it inspired me to start a podcast as well. 12:33 I'm kinda curious where did that desire come from? 12:36 And like, what's happened with it? 12:38 I mean, it's such a great way to contribute to the community. 12:40 So many people have learned so much from it. 12:42 So, what, what's your story coming to that and bringing Dave on and like? 12:45 >> Yeah, you know I got invited to a couple before I had it. 12:48 And it was so fun. 12:51 And now I've seen this a bunch of times. 12:52 Now when we invite people onto Shop Talk. 12:53 I kinda, I see tweets from them in the future that are like, I have so 12:55 much fun being a guest, that I wanna either A, be a guest on more of them. 12:58 >> Mm-hm. >> Or maybe even start my own. 13:02 Not that I don't think we're particularly better than the actual like, 13:04 offshoot Podcasts or anything. 13:07 But at least the desire to and that's totally where my desire came from. 13:09 And then I was like, I want to do that, that sounds fun. 13:12 But I don't want to do any work. 13:15 [LAUGH] You know, so I was like. 13:17 So I was secretly like waiting for 13:19 somebody to ask me to start one so that we could share the load. 13:21 I know you are mostly doing SassBytes alone, right? 13:24 >> Yeah, it's just YouTube, so YouTube. >> Yeah. 13:27 >> Shares the heavy load. 13:28 >> Yeah, it's nice doing it with Dave because we can split. 13:30 Who does the scheduling, and who preps the notes, and 13:34 who does tax stuff and whatever? 13:36 And a 50% load feels good to me, and 13:37 then we even outsource some other stuff like the audio editing and stuff. 13:40 And now that it's at the point, where we don't, 13:43 we just, it's not a tremendous workload, so we can just do it forever. 13:45 I know that's not quite what you're asking, but it's kinda. 13:49 >> Oh, no, that's. 13:50 >> Kid, that was the thought even in the early days, it's like, 13:51 how can we do this fairly easily. 13:53 And the tools get even easier, or even easier still these days cuz all you 13:55 gotta do is find somewhere to host that media file. 13:58 And there's tons of start-ups that do that, 14:00 I think we use like, Buzzsprout or something. 14:01 You just need somewhere to put that MP3, and 14:03 then you use an RSS feed that is like, iTunes compatible. 14:05 Which there's tons of WordPress plugins that will just totally help you with that. 14:07 So if you just want an audio podcast, you're like, ten clicks away these days. 14:11 Like, it's easy to start. So I would encourage anybody to do 14:15 it cuz it's a cool medium. 14:17 >> Awesome. 14:18 >> It's like, it's like the future and stuff. 14:19 [LAUGH]. 14:21 >> With lasers. >> Thanks. 14:22 >> Thanks Michael, awesome. 14:26 >> Oh. 14:27 >> [INAUDIBLE] give me that. 14:28 I don't wanna like. 14:30 >> Okay, no, that's all right, that's all right, that's okay. 14:31 I am Colin Olden from Ann Arbor Michigan. 14:33 >> Hey Colin. 14:36 >> I was wondering, similar to what Wes was talking about. 14:37 CSS is getting really complicated and 14:41 we now kinda have all of the things that we were looking for before. 14:43 With Flexbox and being able to do all the different nifty layouts. 14:47 What do you think about the direction that CSS is going in? 14:51 Cuz they're just adding on more and more stuff and 14:54 in any other area of computer programming that's considered bloat. 14:58 >> And bad. 15:03 >> Sure. We need like a snow CSS. 15:03 [LAUGH] >> Right. 15:05 It was an Apple joke. 15:09 [LAUGH] [COUGH] Yeah, maybe. 15:11 Bit it, there is some guards. 15:13 I feel like the guards of CSS are doing a fairly good job. 15:15 I mean I know they're, 15:18 it's not like they taketh away from CSS cuz that's never going to happen. 15:19 Cuz it's, it's got to be backwards capability like forever. 15:22 So yeah, it's tough. 15:26 Cuz even things like, there's things that are like kinda in flux, right? 15:27 I'm trying to think of like cool examples or whatever. 15:31 But even variables in something that was like, was hotly debated for a minute. 15:33 I think it's pretty much too late. 15:37 Like, they're, they're coming. 15:39 And we're gonna get them no matter what. 15:40 But that, to think about the, think about what a change that is for CSS. 15:41 That's like the first like really super programmery things that's 15:44 happening to CSS. 15:47 And it's like, that's weird. 15:48 And we shouldn't let that like slip through the CSS gate unchecked, you know? 15:50 Like, I think most people agree that they like CSS variables. 15:54 I mean, remember when we did the,rai, raising hands for [UNKNOWN], and, or, or, 15:56 any, 0 people don't use a pre-processor, and that's wild. 16:00 So, clearly there's a need for, a, apparently a 100% need for variables. 16:04 [LAUGH] So it seems like probably a good idea for native CSS, though but is it? 16:08 Like, is every feature in a preprocessor right for CSS? 16:14 I think we'd all agree, probably not. 16:18 Some of those things belong in an abstraction layer. 16:20 And I can, I like thinking of CSS, 16:23 I like thinking that that's okay that we've added an abstraction layer to CSS. 16:24 And that maybe those things should stay in an abstraction layer. 16:27 Just like, you know, I figured this out at one time. 16:31 But, you know, we're like, you know, we're like, we're like, four or 16:34 five levels up the abstraction ladder when we're working in CSS from nothing. 16:37 From the bits and bytes of computers or whatever. 16:40 >> Oh, we're, we're about 50 levels up. 16:43 >> 50, 50 levels. 16:44 [LAUGH] >> Especially if you're running ruby on 16:46 the JVM, on top, no, it's just, it's turtles all the way down. 16:48 >> [CROSSTALK] Yeah, right, right. So, so literally binary. 16:51 And then it's just data storage. 16:54 >> Yeah. >> At that point, or whatever. 16:55 So, but, but that's okay, right? 16:56 The, those, those exist on purpose because it makes sense for them to be abstract. 16:58 That's not like we're sitting on a disaster, 17:02 we're actually sitting on a rather elegantly architected thing, right? 17:04 So maybe if this is just another one of those steps and 17:07 that those things just belong in an abstraction layer on top of CSS. 17:10 And maybe, maybe we're happy and that [LAUGH] if we just. 17:14 There's gonna be a little bit of friction right now between the abstraction layer 17:17 and the, it's parent which is CSS. 17:21 >> Hm. >> But, maybe that'll settle down. 17:22 I, I, unfortunately, I can't control it. 17:25 But we can yell at the office, spec office. 17:27 >> Thank you. >> Thanks, pal. 17:29 Want some cool shades? 17:30 >> No, thank you. 17:31 >> [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] [COUGH]. 17:32 All right, your loss. 17:34 >> Hey! >> Hi, I'm Natalia, I'm from Austin, and 17:36 so I'm coming from a very similar background. 17:39 Fine art, graphic design, and very much print things. 17:41 And- 17:43 >> Uh-huh. 17:44 >> I actually spent six years teaching design. 17:45 And so my thing was, if you're consuming content you want to 17:47 create content about as much as you're consuming. 17:50 And there seems to be this, kinda you know now that I've left teaching it's 17:54 like everyone is really into getting tutorials. 17:56 And I guess, I still have that like, as soon as I learn it I'm going be 18:01 totally like writing it out cuz that's kinda my process and I just want to see. 18:05 How tied in is that for you? 18:09 I mean if, cuz sometimes I'd be like, I'm teaching that tomorrow, 18:11 I should learn that now, [LAUGH] and have something ready by the morning. 18:14 Sorry everyone's teachers do that, it's a big relief. 18:18 [LAUGH] And then how tied that, is that in there? 18:21 And also just with the amount of people who are like, 18:24 you're the Sass master, or you're the this. 18:28 How many things do you ever say? 18:31 Like, I'm going to now write about this thing just in 18:33 case I say something horrible. 18:37 Or does [CROSSTALK]. >> I wish I had that filter. 18:39 >> That's great. 18:39 [LAUGH]. 18:40 >> [LAUGH] >> That's probably. 18:42 But it's, it, 18:44 don't, I, I discourage people from having too strong of a filter like that. 18:44 I just had somebody at lunch they're like, I have, I, I just write drafts and 18:47 then I throw them away and I never write anything. 18:50 I'm like, aw, that's sad. 18:52 People are scared, too scared to write in my opinion. 18:53 I think just write more, you know. 18:56 I sometimes I'll teach it before I write. 18:59 That's bad. 19:02 But I think that's a strong, a strong way to, to, to teach. 19:03 It sounds like you have all the rights instincts. 19:07 >> I'm already writing it. 19:08 I should probably shouldn't be but I am Instagram. 19:09 So it's like okay. 19:11 >> No, no. 19:12 Don't say that. You should be. 19:12 >> yeah. 19:14 That's the perfect moment to, to write is right, right after you learned that. 19:15 Because you have the most empathy and 19:20 remembrance of what it was like to not know it. 19:22 >> Hm. 19:24 >> So I think the second after, like the best words will flow from your fingertips. 19:25 About like, remembering that like, oh, yeah, that's when it clicked for me. 19:29 A huge percent chance that somebody hasn't had that click yet and 19:32 you can articulate it better than somebody who has known that for four years. 19:36 Cuz they just, they don't even remember what it was like to not know that, so- 19:40 >> And so I guess, second question was, 19:43 have you ever hidden a post afterwards, when you were like- 19:45 >> Hidden a post afterwards? 19:47 >> Like, like this, this one I should never have put up, or 19:48 you override yours in the. 19:52 I should, but I don't. 19:53 >> Okay. [LAUGH]. >> [LAUGH]. 19:55 >> It's too, it's too. 19:56 There's too, it's weird on CSS, the tricks. 19:56 There's too many things that like digest it the minute I set publish. 19:57 >> Hm-hm. >> And there would be 20:01 too much of a paper trail. 20:02 >> What do you mean by digest it? 20:03 >> Like aggregators that like grab it and auto tweak it, 20:05 including my own thing that grabs it and auto tweaks it, you know? 20:08 >> [LAUGH]. 20:11 So, I feel like it, it would be hard to like go find those in the room too. 20:12 You know, I just like, let it hang. 20:16 >> Then it like, if it leads to posts whats up with that whole thing. 20:18 >> Then yeah, then it's worse almost, it looks like I said something. 20:21 >> Right, right away. 20:23 >> Yeah. 20:25 >> That was a good question. 20:26 >> Alright. There you go. 20:27 >> Right. >> More, actually I won't take the one off 20:29 the top of my head. 20:32 >> Yeah [LAUGH]. >> [SOUND]. 20:33 >> Hey there, Chris. 20:37 >> Hey. >> I'm Henry from Tampa. 20:37 So, this is more of a junior question, but I've just always kinda wanted to get a, 20:40 a straighter answer than what I've gotten, as far as like images are concerned, just, 20:44 I'm completely reckless when it comes to slapping a high res image on page, and 20:48 just going for it. 20:52 >> Oh. >> I'm scared of sprites. 20:54 >> It's all right. 20:56 >> I know, I know. 20:56 [COUGH] >> Oh, did you see those graphs? 20:57 >> I built my own wedding website, and 20:59 it takes five minutes to load because they're all like high res pictures. 21:01 But I'm terrified of sprites, I need to kinda get better at all that stuff. 21:05 But my question to you is like, what is the best way, two questions then. 21:08 Like, how. 21:12 What is the best practice for images as far as like, you know, 21:14 we're using big hetero-images now, where, you know, much higher quality images in 21:16 general sprites, where possible or as background images. 21:21 What's kinda the best practice for that whole mindset or how to approach it? 21:26 >> Right, I guess, it'd be easier to just think of one particular example, right? 21:29 Do you have, let's say you have a hero. 21:32 >> Right. >> The classic, like [SOUND] but 21:34 it's a beach in Tampa. 21:37 And it need and it's a, you know, this is a desk top website and your 21:40 average size of the browser window is like 1500 pixels I mean it's a big nice thing. 21:43 >> 3000 pixels 21:48 >> 3000 >> I'm just kidding [LAUGH]. 21:49 >> I don't know like that would be, 21:52 that would be the worst asset on your whole website. 21:55 Let's say but you're willing to do that because this is so 21:58 vital to your beach condo rental business, you have to sell it. 22:01 You could, you should probably go these days I would 22:05 think like a little bit wider than that. 22:07 You know, I wouldn't say, you on, even that size, and especially a JPEG of like. 22:10 >> Yeah. >> Something like that, 22:13 that you'd need to necessarily go 2 x, maybe if you go like 1.5 x even, and 22:14 then lower that quality setting way down, and run it through an image optimizer. 22:19 And hopefully, that thing isn't anymore than like 100 or 200 k, 22:23 cuz even that's freaking enormous for an image, you know? 22:27 Like that this is my junnky process too. 22:31 It's not like I have a perfect one. 22:33 But then, also hopefully, 22:35 these days you can start using things like picture fill and the, and 22:36 the responsive images stuff so that you know you can detect if your if the if 22:39 the thing that's hitting your website is has a browser window with the 320 you're 22:43 not serving them that 3,000 pixel ad image you can't dude that's ridiculous. 22:47 >> Right. >> So you have [CROSSTALK]. 22:52 >> I was exaggerating I compressed it down and 22:53 did that did that I just kind of wanted to get your. 22:55 >> Sure. >> Shout at it. 22:58 >> But like the it is the time is now for responsive images and stuff. 22:58 And it that because it's a hero probably it's a background image. 23:01 Not, not a in content image. 23:05 >> Right. Right. Yeah. 23:06 And that's even easier in CSS, because you can write media queries that say, 23:07 you know, media screen width max width, you know, 320 and 23:11 anything bigger than that will load your big one. 23:15 You can make different sized assets, swap them on CSS. 23:17 The browser will only download the ones that it needs. 23:19 It's a lot easier to be responsible with images in the CSS side. 23:22 And so then the world is your oyster there. 23:25 And then second question, how much monthly site traffic do you get? 23:28 >> Monthly site traffic? 23:32 Oh, I wish you could actually, I wish you could just make that, 23:33 there's a button to make it public in, in Google Analytics. 23:36 >> It would be cool. >> Cuz I 23:38 think it would be cool to just share that type of stuff. 23:39 >> Yeah. 23:41 >> I don't know. 23:46 Like, like a bunch. 23:47 [LAUGH] No, css tricks gets like. 23:48 Six, seven million page views or something which is pretty good. 23:50 And [UNKNOWN] gets like 20. So 23:54 it's like way bigger though which is pretty cool. 23:54 >> That's pretty cool. 23:56 >> But it's like, those aren't just dumb numbers like, 23:57 like you could [CROSSTALK] you know we have like. 24:00 >> We have like awesome bragging points too. 24:02 >> Yeah, like we have [INAUDIBLE] >> Seven million on your [UNKNOWN]. 24:03 >> With pagination. That's Ajax. 24:05 >> All right. >> So like, we could just be like, 24:06 you know what? 24:08 That 20's looking a little low. 24:08 Let's just remove Ajax pagenation, and now we have 15, you know? 24:09 [LAUGH] That would be like a jerk move. 24:12 >> Right. >> And, but 24:14 that number would just artificially inflate, so 24:15 I try not to put too much stock into it, but yeah. 24:17 Certainly, high numbers make money, so that's cool. 24:19 >> Yeah. [LAUGH] Thank you. 24:22 >> But yeah. >> Next question. 24:24 Lets give a, how many people use CodePen everyday or close to. 24:25 >> Did you get the coaster? 24:29 >> You get the coaster guys? 24:30 >> Yeah. >> That's a nice coaster. 24:32 [LAUGH] That's all, just saying. 24:33 >> I love CodePen, by the way, 24:36 I just, cause I just I get the idea for something webby or something like that. 24:37 And then I before CodePen, I would just do it Osium on my desktop. 24:42 Do it. Build it. 24:46 I build it then forget about it. 24:47 It's like I delete it six months from now. 24:48 >> Yeah. >> So now he's. 24:50 >> I think that's our subversive tactic here is that like, you'll never lose that. 24:51 You could lose, you could be two laptops in the future from the one you have now 24:56 and that code will still exist, and you can just search and find it. 25:00 People are going to value it more years from now when like old stuff is 25:04 still around instead of in your lost drop box. 25:08 [LAUGH]. 25:12 >> Hi. My name is [UNKNOWN] I'm, 25:13 I'm originally from here but I live in Baton Rouge. 25:15 Chris totally stole my thunder. 25:19 I was going to ask about CodePen and just ask about the creation process because 25:20 it's, it's like, it, it's perfect as far being able to share your live code. 25:26 It's like GitHub but the with the preview aspect and- 25:31 >> [LAUGH] Yeah. 25:33 Let's hope they don't get into previews. 25:35 >> It is just, it, it's just very nifty for the community. 25:37 And I just wanted you to talk about your aspirations for 25:40 all your, just the how and the why cuz it's really, really beneficial. 25:42 >> Sure. I could do it probably pretty quickly, 25:46 cuz it's kinda like we were definitely not the first people to, 25:48 to build anything like that. 25:51 And it was like, I was reading on CSS tricks and I would always like, 25:52 I build demos because that's just what I've been doing forever, right? 25:57 And link to them such that you just see a preview of the demo. 26:01 And then you have, it's up to you, to view source, use the dev tools or 26:06 whatever to figure out how that demo works and that sucks. 26:09 It doesn't suck but it's not as cool as going to like JS Fiddle, right? 26:11 You get the four boxes and you can see what's going on, and you can edit it and 26:14 run it and is fork it and save copies and stuff. 26:17 I'm like, I was finding myself posting more just demos just on [INAUDIBLE]. 26:19 Cause it's just a better thing for something like CS restrict. 26:24 So, I'm like, I don't mind that but I can't, like, I don't know anybody there. 26:27 Like it doesn't seem like they work on it all that much. 26:31 Like I'm losing traffic to that. 26:34 I can't put any ads on it, 26:35 which, you know, I'm sure that everybody hates ads and stuff. 26:36 But I, you know, I try to run a business with the site, so 26:38 like, I have to think about stuff like that. 26:40 And I was like, I'm gonna build my own this weekend. 26:42 >> [LAUGH]. 26:45 >> [COUGH] And I had some friends help me and stuff and then the ideas just, 26:47 would just roll from there as far as, we could make it you know, 26:51 we're like, how do we make it find all of the cool stuff that people are building? 26:54 It's impossible to know. 26:56 So let's build a little interface where we can see the things that 26:57 people are building. 27:01 Oh, that's really cool. 27:02 How you can see them all? 27:03 Maybe we'll make that the home page and stuff. 27:04 It was just very iterative. 27:05 And in response to how we see people using it and stuff. 27:07 And then we're, and then just shortly after that we're like this is cool. 27:10 Let's just go for it you know? 27:13 And the two fellows I work with Tim and Alex were, were like, you know, 27:14 we did okay working at WWOOF when in the past this is like were going to take 27:20 a risk and everybody kind of quit their jobs and made a run for it and stuff. 27:23 And we talk about all this on CodePen Radio, we have little podcast where we 27:25 talk about what it was like starting it and the tech behind it and all that stuff. 27:30 And, yeah, People know ShopTalk. 27:34 But nobody listens to that one. 27:36 So. >> [LAUGH] 27:38 >> Start listening 27:38 to that one. 27:39 It's called CodePen Radio. Right. 27:39 >> Thank you. >> You want some glasses. 27:42 >> Free shades. 27:44 >> Free shades. 27:44 >> [INAUDIBLE] 27:45 >> [LAUGH] >> Hey. 27:46 I'm Ansley from San Francisco. 27:47 So, Rebecca started us out talking about how we should be very 27:48 comfortable to admit what we don't know and then go find it, and I think a lot of 27:53 us here are either self taught, or we're very familiar with learning on the fly and 27:58 Googling, but at the same time, we've been presented with all 28:04 this awesome information from experts in this specific thing. 28:09 How do you balance kind of learning on the fly and 28:14 then taking the time to really read up on a certain subject. 28:16 >> Mm, yeah, that's a good question. 28:21 We have like a dumb little catch phrase on chop talk show that's just like just 28:23 build websites. 28:28 Everybody, you know, is the, 28:29 the idea of being that you should learn what you need at the moment. 28:30 And like, the longer you just do the work, 28:33 you'll learn the things that you need to learn, you know. 28:36 Some people still feel a little like I'm getting behind even though I do the work. 28:38 But I feel like there's challenges arise just in your day to day building of 28:43 things, and if you're like, do I feel, feel there'll be repeating themes, or 28:45 there'll be like, something that like, you're bummed that you didn't know and 28:49 that it feels limiting, but it's it wasn't just a one-off, you felt that a number 28:53 of times in a row, then you can like, maybe self-identify that and be like. 28:58 You know what, this is, maybe we'll call this level up weekend and 29:02 I'm gonna dig into that and that kind of thing. 29:05 I wish I had a perfect answer but do you have something like, do you think of 29:06 something specific in mind that you like don't know that you wish you did? 29:09 >> Oh, it just happens all the time, right. 29:12 You're like, oh, I need to figure this out. 29:14 And then you're like, oh, 29:16 but I don't really know that thing that it's built on that. 29:17 Well, so maybe I should time learning that and then. 29:20 And then you're like, well, 29:22 I'm wasting time learning that, but I'm really trying to do this thing. 29:23 So not specifically, but. 29:26 >> Yeah, totally. 29:28 That's like, it's one, another one of those turtles all the way down thing, 29:29 where your just like, I can't learn that until I know this, and this, and this. 29:33 Yeah. [LAUGH] I know, that's hard. 29:38 I mean, I guess just try to learn the next thing down, and see. 29:39 It feels pretty abstract, but yeah, I mean, it happens to me all the time too. 29:42 I don't know nothing, you know? 29:44 Good luck ugh. 29:46 [LAUGH] Read, you know, but 29:48 I'm sure you do all that stuff, you know, that's like bummer advice. 29:49 >> Yeah. >> Maybe we can, maybe we can, 29:52 we sort it out at the party, 29:53 what is that thing that would be the next best thing to learn. 29:54 We get that question all the time at shop talk, too. 29:59 What do we learn next, you know? 30:02 Like, I know this, this, and this, what's the next thing I should learn? 30:04 And that's where that sound byte came from. 30:08 I was like, I can't tell you that. 30:10 You know, you need to let the flow of your work dictate that. 30:11 But you already have that it sounds like. 30:15 >> Totally. Thank you. >> Good luck. 30:19 >> You want some shades? 30:21 >> Totally. 30:22 >> [LAUGH] Okay. 30:23 Cool. 30:25 Thank you. 30:25 >> How we do it? 30:26 And good call shouting out to Rebecca for that keynote. 30:27 That was so good. 30:29 >> Yeah. >> That was like killer. 30:30 The flying lessons? 30:31 Like, that's like the best metaphor ever for for a keynote. 30:33 Go. 30:36 >> Okay. All right. 30:37 I get inspired by stuff on CodePen all the time. 30:39 >> And you are? 30:42 >> I'm Scott. 30:43 >> From? >> From New York. 30:44 >> Okay, hey Scott. 30:45 >> So, yeah. 30:46 I get inspired by stuff from CodePen all the time. 30:47 I'm just wondering like, if there's anything in particular that really 30:49 stands out to you, that, that you've seen? 30:52 Oh, like individual demos? 30:54 >> Yeah, like Anna Tudors, Felt the Baby Dino. 30:56 Her stuff really stands out. 31:00 >> Oh. >> So I am wondering if 31:02 there's anything your browsing at everyday. 31:04 So, like. 31:06 >> Yeah. >> What have you seen? 31:07 >> So, if I may just tack onto this question, who picks, 31:08 who does the editor picks? 31:12 It's you? Awesome. 31:14 >> It's some work. 31:17 I look at every pen that's ever created. 31:18 I risk getting a little intense, cuz there's like [LAUGH] A, there's like 31:20 a thousand-ish, a day, at least, that are ones that I need to look at. 31:25 We have some algorithms to figure out ones that are just, like, 31:29 kinda, don't need to be looked at, cuz they're just, clearly, little junk pens or 31:31 whatever, but yeah, there's still a ton. 31:34 And we don't have like, super good infinite loop protection, so 31:37 that's kind of a pain too, 'cause I'm like page page page, you didn't! 31:39 Then I have to like do database stuff to like fix their infinite loop in the code, 31:43 and then move on and stuff. 31:47 It takes some hours. 31:48 But yeah, I find ones all the time. 31:49 And there's, of course, 31:51 there's like a community of like people that are always killing it so 31:52 if you see Anna Tutor you have to look at it because it's gonna be awesome probably. 31:54 You know, or it will be really super mad about something too which is why 31:58 I always like those too because she'll has find some like esoteric browser bug and 32:01 she like makes this elaborate demo to demonstrate the bug, which, 32:05 I like just as much as her crazy math ones. 32:08 If you haven't seen her work she does, like, I've calculated how [LAUGH], 32:10 this solar system, she does a lot of geometric stuff. 32:14 So like, how like an, nine sided thing fits to make a sphere and 32:17 then unfold and turn into a dinosaur. 32:22 [LAUGH] [COUGH] She's pretty smart. 32:25 Yeah, so, I look for like, you know, all the big, you know, 32:28 we have a community that's grown and I can tell right away when they 32:31 post something new and it's good, but at the same time every single day I pick 32:35 people's pens that have never been picked before, just made cool stuff, 32:39 I don't know, I mean, it's a pretty cool place to see. 32:43 I don't know. 32:48 I wish I, I wish I had a better system for like, unearthing the greatest ones 32:49 cuz right now, it's just me, like, hand, hand thumbing through that. 32:52 So if you have any ideas for that, let me know. 32:56 We could use a guest picker some week. 32:59 Maybe we'll have you do that for us. 33:02 [LAUGH] >> Alright. 33:07 >> Yeah. 33:08 >> Next up. [SOUND]. >> I'm short. Hi. 33:08 >> Hi, Katie. >> I'm Katie from Austin. 33:11 So, I am a designer, sorry everybody. 33:13 But I know enough code to know what can be built. 33:16 But developers really like to kind of say no, are like really quick to say no. 33:19 So how do I get grumpy developers to not just automatically say no. 33:25 [LAUGH] And get excited about building new things that they might not know? 33:28 [LAUGH] [LAUGH] ugh, I knew this was coming 33:33 >> I know. 33:39 >> Katie. >> [LAUGH] [COUGH] Ooh, 33:39 I gotta a CSS stem cough. 33:41 >> Well I, u, [LAUGH] >> [UNKNOWN]. 33:43 >> Well I would say like I mean, I went to the agency before and 33:46 this, while you recover from your cough there, just that we have developers, and 33:50 developers just got really good at saying no because they're abused a lot, so. 33:55 >> [LAUGH] >> You know, we're. 33:59 >> Is that where we're at? 34:01 >> Yeah. >> I think you're on to 34:02 something with that in that, I think a lot of us were. 34:03 I often don't work in that environment where there's a designer, like Katie, 34:08 like a mostly visual designer even on that is, that is armed and 34:12 dangerous like you are with some coding abilities, right? 34:16 And then, just the front end developer, and they're, like, make. 34:20 [LAUGH] I shouldn't even do this. 34:23 I should be more, like, click and whack on the tablet. 34:25 And then they throw it over to. 34:28 >> [LAUGH] >> And 34:30 then they hand off some kind of comp something to a developer. 34:30 And then, they're just tasked with, with building it. 34:34 And, so, I think, a ton of people are like that, right? 34:36 That's, like an, a, a typical agency model. 34:39 It's probably like that, a lot of products and stuff like that. 34:41 And then there's like the how do how does it get reacted to which is I think I 34:44 don't know depending on, on the, the power balance there whatever. 34:49 Sometimes front end developer's, like, okay, whatever you say and 34:53 they just build it. 34:56 And then there's like an empowerment movement of front end devs where it's 34:57 like, no, you know what, I'm gonna push back and 35:00 be like, you didn't use the colors we agreed on, or this layout with 35:03 the crazy sideways thing is too hard to build, so, no, or something. 35:07 And I think that's like healthy, right? 35:11 Some thing like that's too hard, or that's impractical or whatever. 35:14 But then it crosses the line into grump town, right? 35:19 [LAUGH] It crosses the line into just like, no this is too hard, 35:22 or it's my job to say no because I'm the protector of the website or 35:26 whatever where a more healthy balance is kind of like somebody who is more yes-y. 35:30 That gets a little bit more excited about you weird, hard ideas because you're 35:34 a designer and you probably have better intuition about that kind of thing and 35:38 that you should be more enthusiastic and fired up about those kind of moments where 35:42 I look at something and be like, that, that looks like a no moment. 35:47 But I'm gonna, maybe, I'll stew on it for minute and 35:51 try to make it a yes moment [INAUDIBLE]. 35:53 And then, knowing when to, 35:55 when I, I even think pushing back is like a weird way to say it. 35:56 . It shouldn't be pushed back it should be 36:00 like, lets totally talk about this, and 36:01 I'm gonna explain to you why I'm kinda of saying no on this because I think it will 36:04 produce code that's too heavy or be too difficult interaction wise or 36:09 like, like I, I, you know, I have some design intuition too and don't like it for 36:14 some reason, it's more of a communication thing. 36:18 Even in your talk, you talked about having everybody in, 36:20 be involved way earlier in the process. 36:23 And I think moments like that are, come up less [COUGH] earlier in the thing. 36:25 I even talked with Nicole, right, from Spotify, 36:29 who was talking about how way early on they are, they're on the same room. 36:32 There's like the, the developers and 36:36 designers are talking to each other like, right away. 36:38 [SOUND] So I feel like moments where its just kind of like, they hold, 36:41 like open up your email to find, 36:44 like a disaster PSD in there that you have no idea what to do happens less when 36:46 you're all involved in the early meetings, which I think you know, right? 36:50 Do you have like ones you're thinking of, of that were like? 36:54 >> No, >> You got said no to? 36:57 >> I just, sometimes it's like, 36:57 guys why aren't you exciting about trying to figure out how to build something new? 37:00 I know this is possible. 37:03 And they're like, no. 37:05 >> [LAUGH] No! 37:07 Yeah, need some, we need to be yes people more or, you know, like the next time, 37:08 we all think of a hard no, you know, think of why, and see if, 37:13 see if a yes can come out of it, cuz it's almost certainly possible these days. 37:17 >> Yeah. [LAUGH] >> Thanks. 37:24 [SOUND]. 37:25 >> Yeah. You got, you got mini-claps. 37:27 [LAUGH] Hi. 37:30 >> Hi, I'm Rachel from Baltimore. 37:31 >> Hi, Rachel. 37:32 >> And so I was wondering what your view is on ads in the future on the web. 37:32 >> Mm. >> Because the person who ended up 37:44 deciding on how we advertise on the web ends up, 37:48 ended up kind of regretting it, I heard on NPR. 37:54 >> Oh, really? I bet that was awesome. 37:55 >> And so- >> [LAUGH] 37:57 >> That's kinda like the person who 37:57 invented the nuclear bomb or whatever. 37:58 Guilty forever. 38:01 I mean, that's probably slightly worse. 38:02 But the. [LAUGH] 38:03 >> No, no, no. 38:04 Go with it. Go with it. 38:04 [LAUGH] >> Is it though? 38:05 Okay. But cool. 38:06 I'm sorry. >> So he was talking about you know going 38:07 more towards subscription services and, you know, people tend to ignore ads now. 38:08 >> Mm. >> And so what is your view on, 38:11 do you think people are willing to 38:14 pay or does it depend on the content, and? 38:22 >> Oh, for, for display advertising specifically? 38:26 >> Yeah, or not having as and just having subscriptions for the, to the site. 38:28 >> Yeah, right. 38:33 That's pretty cool. 38:34 Like, that's kind of ideal, right? 38:35 Cuz then you have like, those are your true fans. 38:36 They want something from you. 38:39 They want your ebook cuz they like you and they like your content, or 38:40 it does feel like, like a cleaner business model, doesn't it? 38:43 And slap an AdSense on there, and seeing like weird pill ads and stuff. 38:46 That seems gross. 38:50 It seems. 38:51 But, it's like there's still so much money slinging around that market, you know? 38:52 Like, I, it is tough, and it's changing, but I doubt display advertizing will ever 38:55 just kind of go away, and I suspect it to be a little more subversive in the future. 38:59 Like it's gonna get more, like, integrated in grody ways probably. 39:03 But it's probably. 39:06 There's just, it's a big market that isn't just gonna disappear overnight and, 39:07 matter of fact, I make money from display advertising and if I were to just get 39:11 rid of it tomorrow, that would be devastating to my business, you know. 39:14 Like, I need it, coz people still want to buy it and 39:18 may still have budgets to pay for it. 39:21 So I think maybe we can make it better. 39:23 Maybe we can change the, like we can make it, 39:26 we have higher morals surrounding it and be less tracky and gross about it. 39:29 We can make what happens when you click those ads less gross. 39:33 We can make them lighter on page loads. 39:36 We can make them look nicer, you know. 39:39 SVG has some strong possibilities with advertizing because of how flexible it is, 39:40 and how high resolution it can be, and light weight it can be, and accessible, 39:45 and you can have internal linking in it and stuff, and nice text in it and stuff. 39:49 SVG's like, kind of, as excited as I am about it, unfortunately. 39:53 He makes a pretty [LAUGH] compelling, good case for advertising. 39:56 So I wouldn't be surprised if SVG isn't used a lot more for 39:59 advertising in the future, but yeah. 40:01 It would, I don't know. 40:03 It's easy to yell at display advertising cuz it's so gross these days, but 40:05 like, I sus, you know, 40:10 I suspect the answer's fixing that rather than getting rid of that. 40:12 Thank you. >> Yeah thanks. 40:17 >> You want your glasses? 40:22 >> Oh come on. 40:24 There you go. >> Those are eBayable big time. 40:24 >> Okay. >> Hi my 40:28 name's Cody from Cincinnati who dey. 40:29 >> Oh yeah, it's like the opposite of who dat. 40:32 >> Don't 40:35 >> Don't, don't, don't >> I should let it go. 40:36 Okay I'll let it go. 40:38 Alright >> I didn't know that [UNKNOWN]. 40:39 >> [LAUGH] We had it first. 40:40 >> What if my chair just fell over? 40:41 >> Yeah. 40:44 So the question I wanted to ask though. 40:45 I, I work at a very small shop and we're kind of our own research and development. 40:48 Kind of our we don't have anybody in the company that does that for us. 40:52 I was just wondering what, what, what do you think is the best way. 40:56 To stay up on current trends. 41:00 To kinda get, like, connect to the community. 41:01 And, you know, kinda know what the next big, big thing is. 41:05 >> Oh. 41:08 >> In the, in the future. 41:09 >> Yeah, I didn't know about stuff, before that- 41:09 >> Yeah. >> Cause,. 41:11 >> Well, and, would, just stay up on, ya know, like- 41:12 >> I think it was last CSSdev conf, I did a thing too, but 41:15 it was like, how to stay up to date, I know I did this at one point. 41:18 >> 'Cause it was kind of like the whole talk was around somebody like you 41:21 asking me that question, and 41:25 I was like, I'm going to try and answer that in a big long boring talk. 41:26 [LAUGH] But it was like, it was kinda like, what exactly are you asking? 41:30 Are you asking. 41:35 Is there, like, some secret website that everybody goes to, and they, and 41:37 that has all the answers on it? 41:41 And you can read it? 41:42 'Cause, there kind of is. 41:43 There's kind of like some pretty good weekly newsletters, that, 41:45 like, are pretty good and shelling out that kind of thing. 41:47 Like, I, I don't know, I, I can link up the slides for you, but it's kind of. 41:50 Maybe you've even heard of them. 41:53 There's totally, like, a CSS Weekly. 41:54 >> Mm-hm. >> And HTML5 Weekly, a JavaScript Weekly. 41:56 And they're, like, pretty well done. 41:58 >> Yeah. 41:59 >> And that is kind of like the answer of staying up to date. 42:00 If you just read that thing once a week, 42:03 you'll probably be doing okay as far as knowing what's up. 42:04 And if you, and if you hear things that are just repeated a lot. 42:07 Like, you just, you are at this thing and you heard people talk about. 42:10 On CSS I heard a whole bunch of people like mention after CSS, 42:14 now that's like an ear worm for you almost because enough people mentioned it 42:18 that you'll probably maybe think of it next time a situation like that comes up. 42:21 So just being like awake and aware of stuff like that helps. 42:25 Another possible thing that you could be asking me, 42:28 like a theoretically you I'm not trying to like put words in your mouth or 42:31 whatever, is that like Im like a manager or 42:34 something and I make technical decisions on projects that I make and I don't wanna. 42:37 Screw those up because if I do my boss is mad my team is mad I'm mad at 42:42 myself or whatever. 42:46 So that kind of like that's a like a slightly different and harder 42:47 question that I kind of I kind of intro'ed before I had a good answer for it. 42:52 But is, is that the case is it like coming from a place of 42:56 like worry that if you don't keep up you're going to do a bad job? 42:59 >> It's, it's unfortunately our shop now is, is coming. 43:03 from management that just was stuck from ten years ago. 43:07 And we like, in the last year, our, 43:11 we've gone, we've skyrocketed in like new technologies. 43:13 >> Well it sounds like thats all good news. 43:16 >> Yeah, but like even I came to this conference and 43:19 there's just things that just [LAUGH] blew my mind. 43:21 >> Yeah. 43:23 >> And I just. 43:24 In the future, I'd like to stay up on, all that stuff. 43:25 >> Yeah. >> All that stuff, so. 43:29 >> [INAUDIBLE] >> Yeah! 43:31 [LAUGH] >> It's actually not bad advice, you know. 43:31 >> [LAUGH]. >> Hey, he just answered your question! 43:34 >> [LAUGH] >> Thanks, Jason! 43:36 >> Yeah, you know, it's mostly just you know, be awake and aware and stuff. 43:39 I, I doubt. 43:43 Huge fish are gonna swim by that you should've caught. 43:43 You know, like you'll >> Right. 43:46 >> Hear about things that, that as you need to know. 43:47 And, you know when you're doing a good job for your, for your clients and 43:49 business and product and, and when you're not, you know. 43:52 I'm, I'm sure you have some intuitions as far as that. 43:54 And if you're do, and 43:57 if, if, if the trajectory is good right now, just roll with it. 43:58 >> Cool. 44:01 Well, thank you. >> Yeah. 44:01 Thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO] 44:03 [CROSSTALK] I was giving you the special blue one that's only the one left, but 44:06 you can take the green. 44:10 Go for it man. 44:11 >> Hey, good afternoon. 44:12 I'm Gunther from Miami, Florida. 44:13 Earlier today I asked Dan Ceaderhome the, the same question. 44:15 So I'm hoping to get a different perspective. 44:18 I asked the question of we have a, a lot of backend developers that are now 44:20 Being suggested to become full stack developers so 44:25 they are starting to dive more into the front end. 44:27 Now a lot of these guys don't have a lot of experience doing so, so 44:30 is there any advice on how to get them to think more like a front end developer and 44:33 develop their eye other than fire them and get new people? 44:37 >> Oh you were the one who was the firer, that is a good one. 44:40 [LAUGH]. 44:43 Maybe I should up the ante. 44:44 [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGH]. We should have, 44:44 put a trap door under their desk. 44:46 [LAUGH] [COUGH]. 44:48 No, that's not right. 44:49 I mean, so you, you want to be like, 44:51 you're not doing as good of a job as I think you should be doing so. 44:53 How can we get them to do as good of a job as you think they should be doing? 44:58 >> Well, it's more of like, you know, thinking, you know. 45:01 >> Yeah. >> I guess a lot of us kind of like, 45:03 see in pixels. 45:05 >> Do they want to get better? 45:06 Do you have a sense that, 45:07 that if you show them the light that they would appreciate that? 45:08 >> I think so, I mean, they're definitely smart guys and 45:11 wanna learn but I think they're just not interested in front end. 45:13 But they have to be. 45:15 So it's. 45:16 You know, it's quite a difficult situation. 45:17 >> You, you, on a day to day basis you like work with these people, right, like? 45:18 >> Yes. >> And you produce products together. 45:21 >> Yes. >> And maybe there's some moment, 45:23 where you like, got some HTML from them that was like a bummer, right? 45:24 So that's like a mini learning moment, you can just be like, hey you know, 45:29 how you like. 45:32 Put some like, like a div around something that's obviously a header you know? 45:33 Like, that's I don't know. 45:37 >> It's not written. 45:38 >> It's not correct or whatever. 45:40 But it's that do do you do that kind of stuff [CROSSTALK] then their 45:41 like whatever. 45:44 >> And I do all kinds of little sessions with one on one and but 45:45 it you know, I find that, that can only go so far you know. 45:47 They need to perhaps spend a little more time and 45:50 I just don't know how to get them to feel that way without. 45:52 >> Maybe you could force it 45:55 to like a job switch day 45:55 >> You know, forcing it 45:58 >> [LAUGHING] >> And you, 45:59 you'd have to do eachothers jobs for a day 45:59 >> Freaky Friday or something >> Yeah, Freaky Friday. 46:01 I wonder if there's some, some, some tricks like that. 46:02 And, or I wonder if the're at, at a back end conference right now on 46:06 a microphone being like, I work with this guy [LAUGHING]. 46:11 >> [LAUGH] [COUGH] He just doesn't get back end you know. 46:15 >> No, no. 46:19 >> Do you think, is he, but do, but maybe there is some empathy both ways, you know. 46:20 >> Yeah. >> Like maybe, maybe, you know, 46:24 maybe they are good at what they do and, and, and just, you know, they 46:26 just don't care about divs, but you need to get them to care somehow, you know. 46:29 >> Yeah, that's, that's really the issue. 46:33 How to get them to care. 46:34 >> Yeah or maybe you can get like access to just enough of 46:35 that back end code base so that you can mess with, you do that part? 46:38 >> Yeah I'm a full stack developer and 46:42 they're expected to be the same, that's really the issue. 46:44 >> Oh I see, so you're all full stackers, only you're full stacker with a more. 46:47 Front end >> That's why I'm here. 46:51 >> Mm-hm. 46:53 >> Tough spot to be in. 46:55 >> Yeah. 46:55 >> I'm that one guy in the company. 46:56 >> Maybe you should try to like get a raise and then they'll be all jealous and 46:57 you'll be like no, boss just said I'm super good at divs so. 47:02 [LAUGH] Anyway, good luck. 47:06 I know that, that's tough. 47:11 [CROSSTALK] To get other people to care when they don't. 47:12 That's tough. 47:14 >> Well, thank you. 47:16 >> Classic. 47:17 >> Hi. 47:19 >> Hey! 47:20 >> I'm Jason Pamental. 47:22 I'm from Providence, Rhode Island. 47:24 And I just, one comment with a couple of these things, 47:25 'cause it sort of relates to what I wanted to ask you about. 47:28 I think a lot of these things come back to why. 47:32 Being able to say why you want the developer to do that thing. 47:34 To get away from the Grumpyville. 47:37 To give them, like, a reason. 47:39 Or a reason why they should care about the divs. 47:40 And I, I think that's in part incumbent upon as designers to 47:42 be able to communicate it better. 47:45 >> Mm. >> But I know it doesn't always work. 47:46 But I think it gives a much more compelling reason. 47:48 And it relates to the thing I wanted to ask you about. 47:52 because. 47:54 I tweeted this earlier. 47:55 I, and I've been talking about this for a while. 47:57 I think we kind of live in an accidental profession. 47:59 We sorta found our way here. 48:01 >> Ooh. Neat. >> And, like, we, you know, everybody came from different directions. 48:03 And we don't really have a good way to quantity that knowledge. 48:06 And as a parent who's paying $200,000 for my kid to go to college. 48:11 [NOISE]. 48:15 Yes I know. >> [LAUGH] 48:15 >> I think that like I 48:17 could spend that money going to conferences and 48:18 learn way more specifically about what I wanna do with my life. 48:20 And we don't have a good way to actually I don't know put a put 48:24 a medal on it or something. 48:28 Like in CodePen you see people learning stuff and doing stuff all the time. 48:29 >> Mm-hm. >> Like badging or something. 48:33 What are your thoughts about that way of kind of quantifying our knowledge? 48:34 >> Alternative learning methods or something? 48:37 Or quantifying knowledge? 48:39 >> Yeah I mean like well who would you wanna hire? 48:40 Would you wanna hire somebody that writes awesome stuff on CodePen? 48:42 Or somebody that took a class in CS that may or 48:45 may not have any real applicability? 48:47 >> Yeah. 48:51 Yup. 48:52 I don't know. I don't know. 48:53 [CROSSTALK] I don't know, I just. 48:53 Well, no, you know what I mean, though. 48:54 Just because you made something good on CodePen is not not an auto hire, for sure. 48:56 'Cause >> No, no, no, but,. 49:01 >> Who knows what kind of crazy, you know like, I could love the work you do there, 49:02 but you just are hard to work with or I have a super narrow skill set, 49:06 or whatever, and see that's a rough gauge for, for hireability. 49:12 I'd way rather have somebody who. 49:15 Like clearly like he was awesome 49:17 at googling things and could write like super solid emails. 49:23 >> [LAUGH] >> Like that's what I that's what I 49:28 [LAUGH] You know, that but seriously like that soft skill stuff that gets talked to, 49:29 to death is so, so vitally important. 49:33 >> Sure. >> Above even above even tech and stuff. 49:35 Yeah that's tough though that you're, you're shelling out for 49:37 an education that you're, 49:39 you're pretty sure isn't as good as noodling around on the Internet. 49:40 Well, I I mean, I'm being a little flip, 49:43 because I'm sure his degree is not gonna be in the crazy shit that I do every day. 49:45 >> Yeah, right- >> So that's fine. 49:48 >> And he is totally learning how to do like, keg stands and 49:49 all kinds of like, totally- 49:51 >> [LAUGH] >> Yes, actually, 49:52 we hear about that a lot. 49:53 >> Valuable lifestyle. 49:54 >> But it's, it's actually, it's more of a broader question for 49:55 our own industry, because we have, 49:57 we struggle with this with schools and people that come out of school and. 49:59 They don't really, 50:03 like it's tough for schools to keep up with what we do every day. 50:03 >> Yeah, right. And 50:07 it's incentivized the wrong way, too, right? 50:08 Like, I don't know. 50:10 Like, if you're really good at this stuff do you want to teach it? 50:10 You, you're a hero if you do because you could get another job where you'd get 50:14 double that and work half as much. 50:17 You know, so isn't that tough? 50:22 >> In the draft program people should just be pulled out of school early and 50:27 be given millions of dollars. 50:30 >> [LAUGH] Can, can I go back to school for that? 50:31 >> [LAUGH] >> Anyway, thank, thank you. 50:32 >> Good luck. Yeah. >> All right, Skip. 50:33 These are the last two people we have time for. 50:36 >> Okay. Sure. 50:38 >> So you're, you're quite prolific with the things that you put out to 50:39 the public between CSS tricks, CodePen. 50:42 And Shop Talk Show. 50:46 And, and as the guy from lunch who has more drafts than, than published posts. 50:47 Do you guys still get, 50:52 do you still get anxiety over the things that you publish out to the public? 50:53 And if not, how did you get over that? 50:57 If so, how do you continue to, to. 51:00 Get over that. 51:03 >> Yeah. So that's writing specifically, kind of. 51:03 >> Right. >> Yeah, it is kind of intimate, right? 51:06 Cuz you're like, this is my thoughts. 51:08 I'm about to hit publish and people are going to read them. 51:10 And for, you'd think that it would be more nerve-wracking, just with, 51:14 with an audience. 51:18 Just cuz, like, people will read it when I hit publish. 51:19 I know that they will. 51:21 And that's, that's actually kind of awesome and is. 51:22 A huge part of the motivation why I do it at all 'cause it's totally cool to 51:25 know that what you write people actually read. 51:27 But at the same time it's like it should be morning for, for might just be 51:29 time 'cause I've done it enough that I don't, I don't worry about it anymore. 51:34 I've cultivated a night, nice enough group of 51:36 people that read the site that I know I'm not going to get like skewered. 51:39 And I'm confident enough in my words and thoughts to know that I'm not 51:42 saying something that I know to be not true, you know, like, and, and 51:46 if I'm totally wrong about something, I happen to know enough about CSS. 51:50 There would be, would actually, you know, this feels like dumb and cocky to say, but 51:54 it would be interesting to why I didn't know it. 51:58 You know, it'd be like, I know enough, 52:00 I have a deep enough knowledge base around this thing. 52:02 But if I was totally wrong about something, that would be like, weird. 52:05 Like, wow, that's, that was a weird gap of knowledge I had not appreciated and 52:07 I would probably write another article about that, you know. 52:11 Stuff like that. 52:14 I don't know, I'm just, I, I, it's just straight up through time and 52:15 have doing it enough and just being comfortable with my 52:19 own process that I don't, I don't worry about it anymore. 52:22 And that, that would be my advice, just to do it more. 52:24 Just if it's uncomfortable, do it anyway. 52:27 Then do it again, and then do it for like five more years. 52:29 >> All right. Thank you. 52:33 >> And please do. 52:34 >> Hey, Chris. 52:38 I'm Maya Benari from San Fransisco and I guess I'm closing out these questions. 52:38 >> Yeah. >> I hope it's a good one. 52:43 So we've heard a lot of topics and 52:44 ideas get brought up in, a few times again and again from at this conference. 52:46 What's something that hasn't been brought up that you think should have or 52:52 that we should know about or be talking about? 52:56 >> Oh. 52:58 >> Uh-oh. [LAUGH]. 52:59 >> Like, it's on you now. 53:00 >> No. 53:01 [LAUGH] This is, it's funny. 53:02 It's, a lotta times at, at at, at Christopher and 53:03 Aria events there's the, like, no future thing. 53:05 >> Oh, yeah. The future thing. 53:07 Yeah. >> But this isn't, this is different. 53:08 I wasn't trying to be like those of, illegal question or anything. 53:10 >> Yeah. >> Cuz it, 53:12 it's totally, it's a good, it's a good final question. 53:13 >> She phrased it pretty well. 53:14 >> Yeah, yeah. 53:15 [LAUGH]. 53:15 >> She worked around it. 53:16 >> SVG of course. 53:17 There was only one good talk about SVG but not enough. 53:18 There should be more. 53:22 [LAUGH] That's a big deal. 53:23 >> Yeah. 53:25 >> Cuz it's, I think, I think. 53:26 whatever. 53:27 Scalable graphics on the web. 53:28 It's a big deal and. 53:29 Of learning about it and doing stuff about it. 53:31 And I'm gonna, I'm gonna plan to write about it even more. 53:32 So definitely, if you have never used it or don't know anything about it. 53:35 Definitely, like, look into using it. 53:38 >> Mm-hm. >> Because I 53:40 think a lot of people already have intuition as to, of what a. 53:40 If a graphic started life as vector. 53:43 >> Yeah. 53:45 >> You can just kind of tell, you know? 53:46 Like. 53:47 That did. 53:48 >> Right. >> You can just tell by looking it. 53:49 When that hits a website it should probably be SVG, and it is. 53:50 Good job, Christopher. 53:53 >> Yay. 53:54 >> But sometimes it's not, you know, and you look at websites and 53:55 you're like, they made that a JPEG for some reason, that's weird. 53:57 So that's just something that, 54:00 that, you know, you know should probably get higher representation and stuff. 54:01 There's also been some. 54:05 Feel like the vibe of the conference has been there's something we 54:07 don't have to do. 54:10 >> [UNKNOWN] >> You know what you're gonna do it. 54:10 >> I can do it. >> I have all these funny slides so 54:13 it's gonna be like it's gonna be like hey my name is 54:15 Chris Coyer 54:19 >> [LAUGH] >> jokes. 54:20 >> [LAUGH] >> I run a little website for 54:21 designers and 54:23 then I was gonna be like I'm a totally different person who runs a different. 54:24 >> [LAUGH]. 54:27 >> And then just jokes and stuff. 54:28 This is weird. 54:29 >> [LAUGH]. 54:31 >> [LAUGH] But I was good, I took some bunch of notes of things. 54:34 But I was gonna this like the, like if I could just, 54:37 as I feel like, these are the things that tied the conference together a little bit. 54:39 And one of them was kinda this, and I know that's vague and 54:42 of course everybody wants to give a talk that's, that intends to help people. 54:44 But like sometimes you go to conferences, and 54:48 people give talks that are kinda like, look at me and the cool things I do. 54:49 Look at my portfolio, you know, and that's like. 54:53 Kind of okay, cuz you can sit there and be impressed for a minute. 54:56 But I like these conferences that are more like, I learned something and 54:58 I think your process can be better. 55:03 So there was so much of that stuff going on. 55:04 That we're talking about making your job better, 55:06 your process better, helping people, making things more accessible and stuff. 55:08 And that was a huge vibe going on here though. 55:13 Was totally rad. 55:14 This is funny, 55:16 a couple, I feel like a, two years ago, the vibe was like style guides don't work. 55:17 [LAUGH] >> Right. 55:21 >> Maybe three years ago, where they were like, we tried it and 55:22 it's so hard to get everyone to buy into it. 55:24 This was a big one here that everybody's doing this now. 55:26 Like, I think maybe it was bootstrap or something that people are, like. 55:29 Like constantly talking about style guides and 55:31 how effective they are to their business, 55:33 that's an interesting vibe that's happening in the community right now. 55:35 This is one that I'm feeling that, that, that there's so many tools, 55:39 that was the thing, that people are feeling overwhelmed with tools and 55:42 stuff, that we're now catching up to tools. 55:44 It's not us waiting around for things to get better. 55:47 That's a thing. 55:51 You know? Were like catching up 55:52 to browser abilities. 55:53 It's not us waiting around for rounded corners you know, 55:54 like it's a totally different vibe than it was a couple of years ago. 55:56 And that, and that, and that when we just say like we're just little webs. 55:59 We just make websites. 56:02 You know? Like none of us do that anymore. 56:03 What we what we work on are these incredibly elaborate systems and 56:05 that's what a lot of it talks about too is like how can we just deal with this one 56:09 little part of this giant system we're trying to build? 56:12 We're not just little website builders and I know that. 56:14 Has nothing to do with all your questions, though, all of that stuff we said. 56:16 >> No, this is great [CROSSTALK]. >> But 56:19 that's, that, those, I think, are the, 56:20 the tie that binds in this conference are those, those are my #bigthoughts for this. 56:22 [LAUGH] >> Thank you. 56:26 >> Cool, sure, thanks for asking. 56:27 The last question, yay. 56:29 [APPLAUSE] 56:31 [COUGH] [APPLAUSE]. 56:34